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Who wrote Matthew Pt 1

pshun2404

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The so-called scholars and activists in our time perpetrating the intuited idea of a "Q" sayings source, say that the alleged author(s) of Matthew, wasn’t Matthew the Apostle, that is, if his or their real name even was Matthew, and that this person, or persons, many years later (some like Trowbridge imply as much as 100 years later), actually borrowed from an early edition of the gospel of Mark. The typical hypothesis of the Critical school is there are possibly as many as three stages for this Gospel according to Mark, and that, if so, this would resolve their problem, although up until now there never was one, or even the 2nd century gnostic Gospel of Thomas, or else both later sets of redactors, that of the evolved traditions called “Matthew“, and those of the “Markan” Q-community, borrowed from an even earlier “common sayings source”! They intentionally fail to tell you that the Gospel According to Thomas, was always refuted by the early church. But do we need to replace the only actual historical evidence? If there is actual evidence Matthew was not Matthew and the Author where is there evidence (other than modern conjecture or consensus)?

I am going to present a historical line of evidence for Matthew in three parts and would invite others to produce the opposing view from an equal and adequate set of evidences or proofs. Which we can hopefully discuss…

The historic tradition of the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church of India (not to be confused with Roman Catholicism), that has been diligently handed down, generation to generation, Bishop to Bishop, since the Apostle Thomas allegedly founded and developed this ancient rite (52-75 A.D) with no other book than a Gospel written in his own tongue! In confirmation, this is the very area the historian Heggisipus indicated that this Apostle went. It was here in India, where the once doubting Apostle was allegedly martyred for his faith in the risen Christ, whom he himself had seen raised up with his own eyes, and whose wounds he had handled with his very own hands. There also are recent indicators that Thaddeus and Bartholomew, may also have been there later also preaching from a Hebrew version of Matthew. It is truly a miracle that this most ancient church even survived after nearly 2000 years of unprecedented persecution and martyrdom at the hands of both zealous Hindus, and later by the Moslems!

This ancient church tells the story of their founding 2000 plus years ago, and declares that the Apostle Thomas came there to preach, having with him “the Gospel of Matthew which was written in his native tongue“ (Hebrew/Aramaic), just as western history has recorded that Matthew wrote it in. You see which gospel was never the issue, but rather which Apostle, yet this tradition indirectly demonstrates that the Gospel according to Matthew was in existence, and being preached from, far outside of Jerusalem, within 40 years following the death, burial, and resurrection of Y’shua/Jesus, and well before the end of the first century!

We can deduce from this if true that an obvious earlier copy, was in circulation elsewhere, and being preached from, from which Thomas derived his copy. There had to be an autograph copy, from which Thomas derived his own copy. Also please note that this would have been true while witnesses of these alleged events were still alive to refute them (if these events were in fact not true)! But if they were true, could the Roman appointee and sympathizer Ciaphas and his associates, falsely accuse the Apostles, while the witnessing generation was still alive? No of course they couldn’t, and history nowhere shows that they did. If they had done so falsely and if caught at such a plot, they themselves could have been jailed or even killed for false witness, and that would only validate the very movement they hated so passionately! History truly lacks any rebuttal.

We find another historical witness regarding Matthean authorship in the extant fragments of the writings of Papias (a student of John) from just before 100 A.D.! Papias tells us that “Matthew“, had composed in Aramaic, “the oracles of our Lord, which were translated into Greek by each man as he was able!“ If some John “Q” community was in competition against the Matthew “Q” community, as the Q-bots imply, then why on earth would the John community redactors allow such a witness to be supported by one of their own? But alas history lacks any witness ir evidence for such separate communities.

In Papias what we see is a second confirmation of the same history, from a different source, which again agrees with the tradition handed down in the church throughout the centuries. This testimony is significant, because again, it is a first century confirmation of the Apostle Matthew having written his gospel version, at an even earlier date.

Also note that historical recognition of Matthew’s Gospel is not the central subject of the work of Papias, as if he were trying to persuade others of an event which may or may not have happened yet (he has no axe to grind, as the intuited replacement myth would not be invented for nearly 2 millennia). If his alleged “Q” community was in competition with the Matthew “Q” community why give it credence. After all, Papias was of the John community. So now this gives us three historical supporters of Matthean authorship with no contention.

This testimony is simply a statement presented ‘matter-of-factly’ amidst a more general historical account! It is precisely these types of casual inferences outside of an extant text which confirm or negate many events of the ancient past! If it were any other subject matter this would be considered an excellent witness.
As regards the rules of evidences and proofs as upheld in modern Courts of Law, we have absolutely no reason to impeach the credibility of such an entirely unrelated dual witness. For if two apparently disconnected or unrelated testimonies confirm the same event or fact, that event or fact is considered to be true, unless otherwise proven to be false by an equally adequate set of evidences and proofs, and there just haven’t been any! If there has been then please by all means produce them.

This implies that Papias and the Apostle John, his teacher, mentor, and friend, bear witness to the same history as the Church of India founded by Thomas. Matthean authorship!

In His name

Paul
 

pshun2404

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In the 7 letters of Ignatius (110 A.D.) when on his way to martyrdom in Rome, the aging Bishop (following St. Peter in Antioch) offers us three quotes from the Gospel of Matthew (10:16 to Polycarp; 12:33 to the Ephesians; and 12:33 to the Smyrneans)…he also quotes from Luke, Acts, 1 Corinthians, Romans and more but oddly never quotes from Mark. Why not if it was so significant?

Then aside from other Patristic quotations, we have the testimony of the writings of Irenaeus from around 150 A.D.! Now understand, this is still well within the intuited time frame presented by the modernists! Our Matthew should only just be appearing if their nearly 100 years later myth is true.

Irenaeus, a student of Polycarp Bishop of Smyrna who sat at the feet of the Apostles themselves, in “Against Heresies“, tells us that the “Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect“. We cansafely surmise that he received this history from his teacher.

So this is more continuous confirmation that this is also what John taught as the truth, that is, that Matthew’s Gospel was written by the Apostle Matthew, in the Hebrew/Aramaic, implying it was already in circulation before the end of the first century. This utterly refutes the separate “Q” community accusation and the different Matthew or scribal group who forged his name.

So now, if we include Saint John himself in this line up of witnesses of Matthew as the author, this means we actually have five or six witnesses who declare the historicity of the Hebrew/Aramaic Matthew, as a matter of course, from a time when the issue of Matthean authorship had never even been questioned even by their enemies or the make-believers!

I must ask a rather foolish question here! Does it make any sense whatsoever, for any of these early writers to refer as a past event, to something that if the Critical school is correct, wouldn’t be written until the still as yet future? Ridiculous! There inuit makes no rational sense at all if one just examines the facts.

How come the quotations from Matthew’s work found in Justin and Irenaeus are exactly like the ones we now read? Where is this evolution? Where is the redaction? And why is the John “Q” community implying that the writings of the Matthew “Q” community are actually the real deal? How can these so-called scholars in our time somehow justify early apologists like Irenaeus and Justin Martyr taking quotations from a book that according to them supposedly had not been written in its final form for up to another 100 years?
Irenaus received this history from Polycarp, who states he received these traditions from John and the Apostles (plural). Was Polycarp a liar? Was the Apostle John also a Liar? Also Ignatius who sat under Peter as well? The replacement myth simply does not line up with the facts that the only historical evidence there is reveals.

All the churches in Asia, Europe, Africa, and in Jerusalem itself, all held this exact same history, the same doctrine, the same tradition, and honored the same Gospels, as written in the same order…were they all liars as well? Where is the alleged competition? Did they all miraculously evolve the exact same gospel accounts at the same time in all these different places? It is so absurd I cannot comprehend how so many are convinced! I must admit Belial is good at his craft. There simply was no such thing as allegedly competitive “Q communities“, each with what they saw as “the Gospel”, which later came to be represented as four different gospels labeled Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John! That is simply a totally confabulation with no demonstrable basis in fact. Even as a theory it does not have any support!

Testimonies regarding the authenticity of Matthean authorship continue to occur right up until Augustine of Hippo (450 A.D.), who likewise tells us of Matthew’s Hebrew Version being unique, in that the other gospels were written in the Greek. Lastly in this regard, I would like to share with you the testimony of the well-known Roman scholar St. Jerome. Jerome, who underwent the magnanimous task of translating the Holy Scriptures from their original languages into the vernacular of the Roman commoner (the Vulgate), spent a great deal of time studying and comparing many manuscripts. As a result of his early manuscript studies he leaves us this thought:
“Matthew, also called Levi, Apostle and aforetime Publican, composed a Gospel of Christ, at first published in Judea in Hebrew, for the sake of the circumcision who believed, but afterward interpreted into Greek, though by what author it is uncertain. The Hebrew itself has been preserved until this day in the Library of Caesarea that Pamphilus so diligently gathered. I have also had the opportunity of having the volume described to me by the Nazarenes of Borea, a city of Syria, who use it. In this it is to be noted, that whenever the Evangelist…quotes the Old Testament, he does not follow the authority of the Septuagint, he follows the Hebrew.“

Paul
 
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pshun2404

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Let us consider that regarding Matthew he was a Publican. For such a person not to deliver to the Caesar his due, or to try and cheat him and get caught, would have meant sure death. As a Tax-collector for Rome, in an occupied land, his duties would have included adding, subtracting, multiplying, calculating interest, as well as keeping detailed records of certain people, events, excuses, dates and so on, on a daily basis. As we have found these kinds of ancient records through archaeology, we can see Matthew must have been in a regular habit of recording a great number of precise details every day! So now don’t be fooled any longer by the critics when they try to discredit him.

They would like to convince you, that we must think of Matthew as simply a toll-collector. When questioned, the self-proclaimed Critics reason, “Why squabble, it means the same thing anyway, right”? Sorry, it does not mean the same thing at all! The designers of this aspect of their replacement myth know all full well that words import their culturally contextual imagery. So they know full well how different such terms are to the non-discipled western ear.

They then argue that, “one can use these terms interchangeably“, and that “there is really no significant difference”! Again this is just the boldfaced misrepresentation of a sneaky rhetorician, because young and unsuspecting students of today would certainly envision a significant difference between a person who sits in a little booth on the Mass Pike accepting quarters, and the IRS auditor pounding on their door! Amen? Amen!

Mental imaging by how we associate and relate to euphemisms and buzzwords, are an essential part of the techniques of successful propaganda and brainwashing schemes. Thus understand that the man was a TAX-COLLECTOR! Believe me when I say that in those days they were 100 times more frightening and more dreaded than any IRS man of today, and 100 times more hated by most people. They literally could take you away, or put your family into horrendous forms of servitude, or have your very life taken for just lookin’ at them sideways! Secondly, being a Tax-Collector almost guarantees you that he would had to have spoken their language as well as his own. Matthew could easily have spoken Latin and Koine Greek, although this would not be necessary, and even if he did not speak any other language than his native Hebrew/Aramaic, it in no wise takes away from the point that Matthew was presented as a very shrewd and educated man, whose daily habit of recording hundreds of details, and excuses, would make him a prime candidate for writing just such a Gospel record. The internal evidence demonstrates the writer was definitely a contemporary 1st century Jewish person.

Critics have also claimed it could not have been written by the Apostle for the very reason that it is too precisely biographical. Seriously, as a man who writes daily, would I ever consider putting it down in the presence of such profound and anticipated history in the making such as the man Christ Jesus? This was allegedly a time of miracles?

Would the Lord Jesus, if He were the anticipated Messiah, want Matthew less because he had such skills? No! Obviously He would want him even more for such skills! It is my conjecture (which I totally admit), based on the character profile of this Apostle, that Matthew was the official secretary for the group (prominent Rabbis commonly had scribes among them), and wrote down notes daily at the very time these events were happening. I admit this part is mere speculation. However, no one in near to the time history not even their enemies or the heretics or gnostics ever expressed that Matthew was not author. There is no so much as a comment on another commentators comments (even possible hostile witnesses) that would suggest that Matthew borrowed from Mark (which received his disorderly account from Peter according to history).

So for those here that try to say Matthew and Luke borrowed from and elaborated on Mark and that Mark’s was the first version can you please give historical evidence or witness from somewhere so we can know this theory is not just some made up replacement theology?

 
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Root of Jesse

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The historic tradition of the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church of India (not to be confused with Roman Catholicism), that has been diligently handed down, generation to generation, Bishop to Bishop, since the Apostle Thomas allegedly founded and developed this ancient rite (52-75 A.D) with no other book than a Gospel written in his own tongue! In His name

Paul

At this point I have only one criticism. The Syro-Malabar Catholic Church is one of those rites that is in full communion with the Roman Catholic Church, actually known as the Latin Rite Church. I understand that there are lots of branches of the St. Thomas Christians, but at least three branches are in communion with Rome.

By the way, I'm one of those who believe that the Gospels came to us in the order they are presented in the Bible. Matthew, Mark, Luke and then John. The reason they are similar, at least the first three, is that they are telling the same story to three different audiences. John's gospel is simply more theological, having been mulled over for a long time.
 
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pshun2404

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The "not to be confused" comment just meant originally but later all Churches fell under the Roman authority (post-Constantine) I do not dount this...but I keep hearing the Matthew is not Matthew and copied from Mark story and have even read the arguments from the mosern scholars but see no evidence.

The Lord bless...

Paul
 
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ebia

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Too longwinded to be sure I've unpacked it right but...

Your only actual piece of substantial evidence is the fragment of Papias quoted in Esubius.

Church communities "preserve" all sorts of conflicting drivel they each claim goes back to the first century. Unless you've got an actual text that can be reliably dated a story floating about somewhere is worthless.

Similarly, pointing out issues in the Q hypothesis doesn't do anything to prove who the author of "Matthew" was.

Really, we have no evidence. The Papias fragment is there, but we don't know that it's talking about the text we call Matthew - indeed that's unlikely as the text we have shows little sign of having been translated out of Aramaic.

Certainly the author of Matthew has copied from Mark. And the text wants us to think it is based upon (not necessarily written by) eyewitness testimony. Beyond that we cannot say.
 
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pshun2404

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Certainly the author of Matthew has copied from Mark.

Really? Can you please give even close to an equal and adequate set of indicators that this actually happened? Hopefully from near to the time but even some later commentary or opinion...even from a heretic or a gnostic? Thanks, I look forward to your response.

The Lord bless
 
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pshun2404

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Actually there is internal evidence the original was from the Hebrew in addition to this longwinded list of external witness taught from the 1st century on, but to short wind a few...

a) Matthew quotes more from the Old Testament than any other synoptic
and speaks of people, places and events that would only be privy to
one who was there (from whom Luke borrowed much)
b) It is full of Hebraisms and idioms only really comprehensible to the
Jewish hearer of the time...why pass them over into the Greek unless
the translators were Jewish
c) A person such as a Matthew certainly would have been capable of
writing such an account
d) No writer, historian, critic, or heretic ever questioned it...for centuries

So are you saying they all made this up or agreed to fool everyone? Do you really believe that ascribing authorship to him was just an unfounded story? If so, do you have anything that may evidence this? If so please share. Besides, if making it up why not simply claim Jesus was the writer?

Paul
 
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ebia

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pshun2404 said:
Certainly the author of Matthew has copied from Mark.

Really? Can you please give even close to an equal and adequate set of indicators that this actually happened? Hopefully from near to the time but even some later commentary or opinion...even from a heretic or a gnostic? Thanks, I look forward to your response.

The Lord bless

Well, the clearest bit data we have about gospel authorship is the word-for-word parallels. They go well beyond what is remotely plausible if the two are completely independent; either Matthew used Mark or Mark used Matthew. That's indisputable compared to anything else we know about either.

The internal and external data we have for Mark's authorship goes way beyond what we have for Matthew and all converges on it being Peter's testimony written down in Rome in the mid-60s. In which case it can't be copying from Matthew.

So the only possibility left is the other way around. That the author of Matthew used Mark as a major source. That by no means rules out the apostle Matthew also being a source in some form.
 
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ebia

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pshun2404 said:
Actually there is internal evidence the original was from the Hebrew in addition to this longwinded list of external witness taught from the 1st century on, but to short wind a few...

a) Matthew quotes more from the Old Testament than any other synoptic
Does not imply Aramaic authorship. Especially as many of the quotes ate from the LXX.


and speaks of people, places and events that would only be privy to
one who was there (from whom Luke borrowed much)
Doesn't indicate authorship in Aramaic.


b) It is full of Hebraisms and idioms only really comprehensible to the
Jewish hearer of the time...why pass them over into the Greek unless
the translators were Jewish
Most Jews at the time spoke Greek. You aren't being asked to substantiate that it was written by a Jew, you are being asked to substantiate that it was written in Aramaic.

c) A person such as a Matthew certainly would have been capable of
writing such an account
Not the point you are being asked to address

d) No writer, historian, critic, or heretic ever questioned it...for centuries

So are you saying they all made this up or agreed to fool everyone?
There are masses of instances of communities getting wires crossed

Besides, if making it up why not simply claim Jesus was the writer?
Because he clearly isn't.

Now let's be clear - you set up to prove Matthew is the author. Now you offer "evidence" that it was written in Aramaic, not one bit of it actually connects with that claim.
 
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Root of Jesse

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The early Christian tradition, articulated most notably by the famed theologian Augustine, is that the Synoptic Gospels were written in the order in which they now appear in the New Testament: Matthew, Mark, and Luke. Post-Enlightenment scholarship challenged this assumption, and today mainline and liberal scholars embrace the view that Mark was the first Gospel written.
In addition, mainstream biblical scholars hold that Mark based his Gospel on a source document known as “Q.” There is absolutely no evidence for any Q document, but literary analysis of the Synoptic similarities along with Jewish rabbinical tradition (namely the practice of keeping records of rabbinical teachings) support the hypothesis. New Testament scholars have since added two additional sources: “L” and “M” – for which, once again, there is no hard evidence. These are assumed to be strains of mainly oral tradition.


Read more at Suite101: Who Wrote Matthew?: First in a Series on the Authors of the Synoptic Gospels | Suite101.com Who Wrote Matthew?: First in a Series on the Authors of the Synoptic Gospels | Suite101.com


Matthew

Who wrote the Gospel that first appears in the New Testament canon, the Gospel of Matthew? Doubts about Matthew’s authorship stem largely from the fact that New Testament scholars now widely believe that Mark was written first. Would Matthew, an actual eyewitness of Jesus’ life, rely on the writing of Mark, who was not an eyewitness?
This skepticism, of course, assumes that Matthew primarily utilized Mark, yet this theory of Synoptic Gospel inter-connectivity has never been conclusively established, certainly not to a degree that would have the author of Matthew actually dependent on Mark’s Gospel. Thomas Jefferson utilized George Mason’s Virginia Constitution when writing the Declaration of Independence, but utilization does not equate to absolute reliance. No historian would argue that Jefferson was helpless in his task of authoring America’s independence document absent Mason’s handiwork. Accordingly, even if Matthew had Mark’s Gospel at his disposal, it hardly discredits the notion that the apostle himself wrote the Gospel of Matthew.
The strongest evidence attesting to Matthew’s authorship is the fact that four ancient sources, not counting the title itself, specifically attribute the Gospel to Matthew, the disciple of Jesus. Those sources are Papias of Asia Minor, Irenaeus of Gaul, Pantaenus, and Origen of Alexandria and Caesarea, all significant leaders or writers in the early Christian community. Moreover, the Gospel of Matthew was in wide circulation in the early church, and was circulated as an account written by Matthew, with no apparent question or contestation.


Read more at Suite101: Who Wrote Matthew?: First in a Series on the Authors of the Synoptic Gospels | Suite101.com Who Wrote Matthew?: First in a Series on the Authors of the Synoptic Gospels | Suite101.com
 
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pshun2404

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All converges on it being Peter's testimony written down in Rome in the mid-60s... In which case it can't be copying from Matthew.

Why did he have to count on Matthew’s version? Though having come from Jerusalem it is possible he already had seen it or even had a copy in his possession. Peter was also there and received the same teachings? What proof or evidences do we have (historical indicators) that Matthew was written much later (as accused by most who hold this theory)? None!

Why do they claim Matthew wrote his sometime after 70 A.D.? There is nothing to confirm this, but there are internal indications to refute it. For example, the writer has Jesus speaking about the destruction of the Temple in the near future, so if trying to encourage a mythical case why not show Jesus as a true prophet (that is, if the Temple had already been destroyed). It would have only been all the more convincing. And why focus so much on certain groups (the Pharisees) in such a role, when after 70 A.D. they are no longer heard of as influential over the Jews? The Sadducees are also spoken of in the present tense continuously…but they also totally disappear after 70 A.D.

Are they claiming the writer intentionally imposed facts like these in order to create the appearance of it being much older? Where is there indication this may have taken place? Why wouldn’t the real Apostles or their many opponents have said something and/or not used this intentionally corrupted source calling it Matthew’s gospel as proof of chicanery? Were they all also part of the big century spanning Matthew hoax (which would make it both pseudopigraphic and a forgery) to fool or manipulate the sincere followers of Christ? (these questions are rhetorical)

So I am not doubting that you are a Christian, but their theory is clearly a presumption that assumes their preconceived conclusion, while all historical reference and unbroken tradition lists him as having written his first (as a gospel for the Jewish believers…who if the Bible is true came first). All that is a lie? Just deception at its best? Does this mean all these men were liars as well and these moderns 2000 years after the facts actually know better?

That by no means rules out the apostle Matthew also being a source in some form.

Thank you I realize that is a gracious admission. The history says Mark took down Peter’s (an eyewitness) memoirs, Matthew (an eye witness who was used to keeping daily records for Rome) wrote his to be used for the lost sheep of the house of Israel (who at the time were coming to Christ in droves). Later when Matthew goes to Ethiopia and is eventually martyred it makes sense because the Israelite community there was so large and prevalent.

If the Markan history is correct, and Peter and Paul were already in prison in Rome (undoubtedly before 70 A.D.) this is no reason to assume negation that Matthew (from whom Luke also definitely refers to) was not already being used.

Matthew is so personal while Mark gives an unordered narrative, implying these events were past already. He is writing as one recalls events as opposed to recording as things happen (which is how Matthew is presented to us). Mark and Luke refer to Matthew as Levi, yet he calls himself Matthew. They refer to his house while he says “the house” (yeah! Why don’t you come by the house later and thus and so…whose house am I referring to?). Even many critics have said the Matthew account shows the writer to be familiar and at home in the Roman occupation, while Mark and Luke show more antagonism toward Rome and record their involvement more as history. This association would be understandable if this writer were actually a Tax Collector for the Romans. Kummel’s criticism that the Matthew account is “too systematic” to be our Matthew has long been considered erroneous as we would expect a professional accountant to be just that. Likewise he speaks of money more than any other author. Did the redactors think that one out and do it on purpose?

The fish and coin parable would be irrelevant and not good planning for a hoaxter or scribal redactor if the Temple were not still standing when this was written. Matthew uses unique monetary terms and speaks of silver and gold, where Mark and Luke do not. Why? Why does Luke the physician use the term for a surgical needle in the eye of the needle story where the other two do not? It is because a writer subtly imposes him/herself into their work. Because Luke was a physician this usage makes sense. Matthew was a Publican and so these make sense. Some non-Publican much later Greek Christians would not have done this…it makes no sense! The writer of Matthew also has a more complete grasp of and places greater emphasis on the Hebrew Scriptures than either Mark or Luke…and why wouldn’t he if he were a Levite. He presents Christ as the fulfillment of OT Messianic prophecy. Would some group pof much later Greeks do this? I don’t know, that is really stretching it in my opinion. Our Matthew would have been trained at least in Torah and be familiar with all these prophecies. These things all point to Matthew a Jewish author/accountant, and I say prior to 70 A.D.! I have found zero evidence (and I have looked) or history to show later scribal redactors copying from Mark. It just does not exist. It is an assumption to support a preconceived idea and has no real substance.

In His name

Paul
 
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ebia

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pshun2404 said:
All converges on it being Peter's testimony written down in Rome in the mid-60s... In which case it can't be copying from Matthew.

Why did he have to count on Matthew's version? Though having come from Jerusalem it is possible he already had seen it or even had a copy in his possession. Peter was also there and received the same teachings? What proof or evidences do we have (historical indicators) that Matthew was written much later (as accused by most who hold this theory)? None!

Why do they claim Matthew wrote his sometime after 70 A.D.? There is nothing to confirm this, but there are internal indications to refute it. For example, the writer has Jesus speaking about the destruction of the Temple in the near future, so if trying to encourage a mythical case why not show Jesus as a true prophet (that is, if the Temple had already been destroyed). It would have only been all the more convincing. And why focus so much on certain groups (the Pharisees) in such a role, when after 70 A.D. they are no longer heard of as influential over the Jews? The Sadducees are also spoken of in the present tense continuously...but they also totally disappear after 70 A.D.

Are they claiming the writer intentionally imposed facts like these in order to create the appearance of it being much older? Where is there indication this may have taken place? Why wouldn't the real Apostles or their many opponents have said something and/or not used this intentionally corrupted source calling it Matthew's gospel as proof of chicanery? Were they all also part of the big century spanning Matthew hoax (which would make it both pseudopigraphic and a forgery) to fool or manipulate the sincere followers of Christ? (these questions are rhetorical)

So I am not doubting that you are a Christian, but their theory is clearly a presumption that assumes their preconceived conclusion, while all historical reference and unbroken tradition lists him as having written his first (as a gospel for the Jewish believers...who if the Bible is true came first). All that is a lie? Just deception at its best? Does this mean all these men were liars as well and these moderns 2000 years after the facts actually know better?

That by no means rules out the apostle Matthew also being a source in some form.

Thank you I realize that is a gracious admission. The history says Mark took down Peter's (an eyewitness) memoirs, Matthew (an eye witness who was used to keeping daily records for Rome) wrote his to be used for the lost sheep of the house of Israel (who at the time were coming to Christ in droves). Later when Matthew goes to Ethiopia and is eventually martyred it makes sense because the Israelite community there was so large and prevalent.

If the Markan history is correct, and Peter and Paul were already in prison in Rome (undoubtedly before 70 A.D.) this is no reason to assume negation that Matthew (from whom Luke also definitely refers to) was not already being used.

Matthew is so personal while Mark gives an unordered narrative, implying these events were past already. He is writing as one recalls events as opposed to recording as things happen (which is how Matthew is presented to us). Mark and Luke refer to Matthew as Levi, yet he calls himself Matthew. They refer to his house while he says "the house" (yeah! Why don't you come by the house later and thus and so...whose house am I referring to?). Even many critics have said the Matthew account shows the writer to be familiar and at home in the Roman occupation, while Mark and Luke show more antagonism toward Rome and record their involvement more as history. This association would be understandable if this writer were actually a Tax Collector for the Romans. Kummel's criticism that the Matthew account is "too systematic" to be our Matthew has long been considered erroneous as we would expect a professional accountant to be just that. Likewise he speaks of money more than any other author. Did the redactors think that one out and do it on purpose?

The fish and coin parable would be irrelevant and not good planning for a hoaxter or scribal redactor if the Temple were not still standing when this was written. Matthew uses unique monetary terms and speaks of silver and gold, where Mark and Luke do not. Why? Why does Luke the physician use the term for a surgical needle in the eye of the needle story where the other two do not? It is because a writer subtly imposes him/herself into their work. Because Luke was a physician this usage makes sense. Matthew was a Publican and so these make sense. Some non-Publican much later Greek Christians would not have done this...it makes no sense! The writer of Matthew also has a more complete grasp of and places greater emphasis on the Hebrew Scriptures than either Mark or Luke...and why wouldn't he if he were a Levite. He presents Christ as the fulfillment of OT Messianic prophecy. Would some group pof much later Greeks do this? I don't know, that is really stretching it in my opinion. Our Matthew would have been trained at least in Torah and be familiar with all these prophecies. These things all point to Matthew a Jewish author/accountant, and I say prior to 70 A.D.! I have found zero evidence (and I have looked) or history to show later scribal redactors copying from Mark. It just does not exist. It is an assumption to support a preconceived idea and has no real substance.

In His name

Paul
You aren't sticking to one point at a time, even in a single paragraph supposedly responding to one point of mine. That makes unpacking your argument to address it properly too tedious I'm afraid.
 
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pshun2404

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Sorry Ebia I got sidetracked with some of GreenKnights comments, so the question remains...is there actual evidence or commentary that would make one consider Matthew copied from Mark or even that this Matthew was not the Apostle Matthew...

I think it is fair to say nothing actually indicates the Matthew redactors wrote at some later time (who were they anyway, and why borrow the scribal redactor theme from the Documentary Hyppthesis when that has already been so shot down with actual proofs)?

Paul
 
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ebia

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pshun2404 said:
Sorry Ebia I got sidetracked with some of GreenKnights comments, so the question remains...is there actual evidence or commentary that would make one consider Matthew copied from Mark or even that this Matthew was not the Apostle Matthew...

I think it is fair to say nothing actually indicates the Matthew redactors wrote at some later time (who were they anyway, and why borrow the scribal redactor theme from the Documentary Hyppthesis when that has already been so shot down with actual proofs)?

Paul

The overlaps are too much to be coincidence. They clearly copied those passages one from the other.

If Mark copied from Matthew there is such a small amount of other material in Mark it becomes little more than a summary of Matthew - and a curiously out of order one at that. But we have strong reasons for thinking Mark is Peter's eyewitness testimony so that can't be the case.

The only plausible option left is that the author of Matthew used Mark as a major source.

Where, if anywhere, do you see a problem with that reasoning?
 
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pshun2404

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Ebia…have you actually read the parallel passages outside of the hodgepodge mix match created from the critical text (put together from various texts that disagree even with one another that represent around 5% of the 20,000 textual samples)? First off they are not close to word for word (though some sections of each are the same) so that first part is simply not true. Secondly, it appears more as if these sections of Mark are shortened summations of what we have in Matthew. Finally, we cannot forget that Peter received the same teachings and heard the same stories and that this also played a part.
The Lord bless...
Paul
 
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ebia

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pshun2404 said:
Ebia…have you actually read the parallel passages outside of the hodgepodge mix match created from the critical text (put together from various texts that disagree even with one another that represent around 5% of the 20,000 textual samples)? First off they are not close to word for word (though some sections of each are the same) so that first part is simply not true. Secondly, it appears more as if these sections of Mark are shortened summations of what we have in Matthew. Finally, we cannot forget that Peter received the same teachings and heard the same stories and that this also played a part.
The Lord bless...
Paul

When two people are witness to the same event but retell it independently they don't tell the story the same way. The parallels are much too close for these to be independent accounts. That is massively more secure than any other data we have.

The five resurrection accounts show the sort of differences we should expect from independent accounts. The overall gospels of Matthew and Mark do not. Nobody would dream of thinking these were independent in any other context. The other data we have on authorship is flimsy in extreme by comparison.
 
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pshun2404

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When two people are witness to the same event but retell it independently they don't tell the story the same way. The parallels are much too close for these to be independent accounts.

Oh I agree, but think this evidence shows Mark summarizes teachings from Matthew and not that Matthew takes from Mark and then expands them.

The other data we have on authorship is flimsy in extreme by comparison.

Okay, show us…show evidence that Matthew copied from Mark or even that Matthew’s gospel was written much later when all of the history and the tradition for about 1800 years says otherwise.

I know we will probably never agree and I know you are a Christian but show some actual evidence please. I have read all the critical school arguments but have seen no actual evidence just opinion so if anyone else has this evidence please present it.

The Lord bless…

Paul
 
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ebia

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pshun2404 said:
When two people are witness to the same event but retell it independently they don't tell the story the same way. The parallels are much too close for these to be independent accounts.

Oh I agree, but think this evidence shows Mark summarizes teachings from Matthew and not that Matthew takes from Mark and then expands them.
So we agree one is working from the other. The question is which way around.

The evidence for Mark being Peter's testimony written down around the time of Peter's death is very strong. Would you agree?
 
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