*Who/what* actually died on the cross?

[Puzzled Guy]

Serious question, for Trinitarians I guess. Feel free to correct any of my mistakes.
Follow me here... This might be a long one... So from my understanding:

Trinity = Father is a person, Son is a person, Holy ghost is a person, but they are not three persons but one person.
God = Trinity = Eternal, Immortal, etc. etc.

Stick with me here:
#1: Is the flesh part of the Trinity?
From my understanding and what I've heard from Christians, yes.
So, Trinity = Father, Son (100% God, 100% Man), Holy ghost but they are one God.

#2: Why did Jesus die on the cross?
His death is the penalty for sin. Only a sinless being with infinite power can take the burden for all of mankind.

#3: Did God die?
From my understanding... Kind of? Did the (100% man, 100% God) Jesus die? How can this be possible? 1 Timothy 6:16 says: "God... who alone is immortal". So did God die?

Christians tell me that it was not the 100% God that died, but the 100% man that died. This is because right at the moment of death, Jesus ceased to be 100% God, so only the Flesh died.
Something on the lines of the God nature didn't actually die, its spirit still lived. Only the Flesh died. What's so special about that though? When we die, the same thing happens lol. We have ever-living souls. My rebuttal to this is still 1 Timothy 6:16 "God... who alone is immortal", God does not taste death, this is what separates God from mortal beings.

#4: So God didn't die for our sins, the no-longer-part-of-the-Trinity Flesh did?
What is so special about the Flesh? The moment Jesus died, this Flesh was no longer part of the Trinity... So who/what exactly even died?

The Flesh = (According to Christians) Sinless
The Flesh = (At the moment of death) Not part of the Trinity AKA not God

The Flesh (one sinless human) does not equal one sinless God

So... This one single sinless human, died for all of humanity? How can one sinless man do it for all of mankind? I can understand "one sinless God", because His power is infinite, but...

A man, who was sinless, but with no Godly powers, died for our sins?

Thank you for your patience.

 

[Solomons Porch]

Serious question, for Trinitarians I guess. Feel free to correct any of my mistakes.
Follow me here... This might be a long one... So from my understanding:

Trinity = Father is a person, Son is a person, Holy ghost is a person, but they are not three persons but one person.
God = Trinity = Eternal, Immortal, etc. etc.

Stick with me here:
#1: Is the flesh part of the Trinity?
From my understanding and what I've heard from Christians, yes.
So, Trinity = Father, Son (100% God, 100% Man), Holy ghost but they are one God.

#2: Why did Jesus die on the cross?
His death is the penalty for sin. Only a sinless being with infinite power can take the burden for all of mankind.

#3: Did God die?
From my understanding... Kind of? Did the (100% man, 100% God) Jesus die? How can this be possible? 1 Timothy 6:16 says: "God... who alone is immortal". So did God die?

Christians tell me that it was not the 100% God that died, but the 100% man that died. This is because right at the moment of death, Jesus ceased to be 100% God, so only the Flesh died.
Something on the lines of the God nature didn't actually die, its spirit still lived. Only the Flesh died. What's so special about that though? When we die, the same thing happens lol. We have ever-living souls. My rebuttal to this is still 1 Timothy 6:16 "God... who alone is immortal", God does not taste death, this is what separates God from mortal beings.

#4: So God didn't die for our sins, the no-longer-part-of-the-Trinity Flesh did?
What is so special about the Flesh? The moment Jesus died, this Flesh was no longer part of the Trinity... So who/what exactly even died?

The Flesh = (According to Christians) Sinless
The Flesh = (At the moment of death) Not part of the Trinity AKA not God

The Flesh (one sinless human) does not equal one sinless God

So... This one single sinless human, died for all of humanity? How can one sinless man do it for all of mankind? I can understand "one sinless God", because His power is infinite, but...

A man, who was sinless, but with no Godly powers, died for our sins?

Thank you for your patience.

Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit. Sinless and came straight from God. Jesus has and had (all) of Gods DNA, every drop of it. Jesus was "chosen" to come from God as the perfect Lamb to be sacrificed once and for all to save mankind. Jesus was inside of God as was the Holy Spirit, He reached into himself and brought Jesus to earth for us. Blessings in Jesus name !!

 

[Galatea]

This is a good question, a thoughtful question.

Do you recall in the Bible when God and Jesus are parted? On the cross- Jesus cries out "My God, my God,why hast Thou forsaken me?" God the Father was separated from God the Son at that moment because God the Father is holy and can not be in contact with that which is not holy. At that time, Jesus had the sins of the whole world- every sin ever committed or ever will be committed laid on Him.

Hell is separation from God. Jesus tasted Hell for us. The Bible says that during the three days before His resurrection, He descends into Hades to preach to the souls there.

Hebrews 2:9 "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that He by the grace of God should taste death for every man."

Tadting death for every man is surely not physical death- because we'll all taste physical death ourselves (unless we are alive during the Rapture).

So, what kind of death did Jesus taste for every man? He tasted spiritual death by being separated from God the Father.

This is my interpretation of the Scripture, but I think you ask a good question.

 

[crossnote]

Trinity = Father is a person, Son is a person, Holy ghost is a person, but they are not three persons but one person.

A bit of a correction here. They are three Persons but One God.
I would recommend a classic on this topic called The Two Natures of Christ by Martin Chemnitz.
The eternal Son took upon Himself our human nature as He became the God/man. Our human nature did not take upon itself Deity (Although some think they are lol).
As such the Divine nature will share in the attributes of our humanity, so when it is said Jesus died, it means that God died insofar as He shared in the attributes of our humanity.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Serious question, for Trinitarians I guess. Feel free to correct any of my mistakes.
Follow me here... This might be a long one... So from my understanding:

Trinity = Father is a person, Son is a person, Holy ghost is a person, but they are not three persons but one person.
God = Trinity = Eternal, Immortal, etc. etc.

Stick with me here:
#1: Is the flesh part of the Trinity?
From my understanding and what I've heard from Christians, yes.
So, Trinity = Father, Son (100% God, 100% Man), Holy ghost but they are one God.

#2: Why did Jesus die on the cross?
His death is the penalty for sin. Only a sinless being with infinite power can take the burden for all of mankind.

#3: Did God die?
From my understanding... Kind of? Did the (100% man, 100% God) Jesus die? How can this be possible? 1 Timothy 6:16 says: "God... who alone is immortal". So did God die?

Christians tell me that it was not the 100% God that died, but the 100% man that died. This is because right at the moment of death, Jesus ceased to be 100% God, so only the Flesh died.
Something on the lines of the God nature didn't actually die, its spirit still lived. Only the Flesh died. What's so special about that though? When we die, the same thing happens lol. We have ever-living souls. My rebuttal to this is still 1 Timothy 6:16 "God... who alone is immortal", God does not taste death, this is what separates God from mortal beings.

#4: So God didn't die for our sins, the no-longer-part-of-the-Trinity Flesh did?
What is so special about the Flesh? The moment Jesus died, this Flesh was no longer part of the Trinity... So who/what exactly even died?

The Flesh = (According to Christians) Sinless
The Flesh = (At the moment of death) Not part of the Trinity AKA not God

The Flesh (one sinless human) does not equal one sinless God

So... This one single sinless human, died for all of humanity? How can one sinless man do it for all of mankind? I can understand "one sinless God", because His power is infinite, but...

A man, who was sinless, but with no Godly powers, died for our sins?

Thank you for your patience.

Puzzled Guy,

While we Christians would agree with you Muslims that the nature of God cannot be FULLY recognized by our temporal minds, and we would also agree that God is transcendent in nature, we do however believe instead that it has been revealed to us BY GOD that He does not consider it beneath Himself to, in some way, come down to our level by transforming Himself, or some aspect of Himself, and come to us in the likeness of frail, mortal, human flesh.

What you might want to understand is that we Christians believe that a full explanation about HOW God does what He does cannot be fully given.....BECAUSE He is Transcendant. But He tells us that He has the power to become Imminent as well, IF HE SO CHOOSES. And He has chosen to do so.

Moreover, in thinking about the essence and/or nature of the Trinity, and for us to see how the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, by rough analogy, have a shared spiritual essence and being, we can think of God's Being as similar in its relationship (again, this is a rough analogy) using the human body:

1) We know that each human body has a brain. Correct? A brain coordinates and directs ALL of the human physical functions. God the Father is like the brain of His body (again, this is by analogy--we know that God is actually Spirit).

2) Then, we might liken Jesus to be the Heart of the Body; without the heart, the flow of blood doesn't occur in the body, and the heart is organically connected to, and not disconnected from, the brain.

3) Finally, we might liken the Holy Spirit to be the Nervous System, the Muscles, Skin and the Blood of the body; by which the entire system is connected.

So, if we use just the human body as a very rough analogy, we can see that all of this makes up ONE BODY (which is really ONE SPIRIT of the Lord God Almighty). In a similar way, we believe in ONE GOD, and it is the 'heart' of God, so to speak, that transformed itself--while still connected to the Father and the Holy Spirit--and took on flesh through the body of a holy woman (Mary), and entered the world as a man who could die. But, being that Jesus was still actually God, death by crucifixion could not hold him, and his mortal body transformed back into the eternal heart of God (i.e. through the Resurrection)--while remaining the ONE GOD that He already is and has been all along.

Does this analogy help, Puzzled Guy?

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

 

[jerrygab2]

Trinity = Father is a person, Son is a person, Holy ghost is a person, but they are not three persons but one person.

God The Father, God The Son, and God the Holy Spirit are three separate persons. They are all one Essence, one God. Not three Gods but one God in three persons. It is a mystery to our human brains

 

[SkyWriting]

Serious question, for Trinitarians I guess. Feel free to correct any of my mistakes.
Follow me here... This might be a long one... So from my understanding:

Trinity = Father is a person, Son is a person, Holy ghost is a person, but they are not three persons but one person.
God = Trinity = Eternal, Immortal, etc. etc.

Stick with me here:
#1: Is the flesh part of the Trinity?
From my understanding and what I've heard from Christians, yes.
So, Trinity = Father, Son (100% God, 100% Man), Holy ghost but they are one God.

#2: Why did Jesus die on the cross?
His death is the penalty for sin. Only a sinless being with infinite power can take the burden for all of mankind.

#3: Did God die?
From my understanding... Kind of? Did the (100% man, 100% God) Jesus die? How can this be possible? 1 Timothy 6:16 says: "God... who alone is immortal". So did God die?

Christians tell me that it was not the 100% God that died, but the 100% man that died. This is because right at the moment of death, Jesus ceased to be 100% God, so only the Flesh died.
Something on the lines of the God nature didn't actually die, its spirit still lived. Only the Flesh died. What's so special about that though? When we die, the same thing happens lol. We have ever-living souls. My rebuttal to this is still 1 Timothy 6:16 "God... who alone is immortal", God does not taste death, this is what separates God from mortal beings.

#4: So God didn't die for our sins, the no-longer-part-of-the-Trinity Flesh did?
What is so special about the Flesh? The moment Jesus died, this Flesh was no longer part of the Trinity... So who/what exactly even died?

The Flesh = (According to Christians) Sinless
The Flesh = (At the moment of death) Not part of the Trinity AKA not God

The Flesh (one sinless human) does not equal one sinless God

So... This one single sinless human, died for all of humanity? How can one sinless man do it for all of mankind? I can understand "one sinless God", because His power is infinite, but...

A man, who was sinless, but with no Godly powers, died for our sins?

Thank you for your patience.

Yikes!

The wages of Sin is death.

To cover for our being less than perfect, and sentenced to death,
God sent His only Son to die for our transgressions.
Accept this free gift, and thou art saved.
God had to do something or we were all lost.
So part of God had to die...at least for a while.

 

[seashale76]

Serious question, for Trinitarians I guess. Feel free to correct any of my mistakes.
Follow me here... This might be a long one... So from my understanding:

Trinity = Father is a person, Son is a person, Holy ghost is a person, but they are not three persons but one person.
God = Trinity = Eternal, Immortal, etc. etc.

Wrong. Simply put, your understanding of the Holy Trinity is incorrect. The Holy Trinity is three persons, one in essence; not one person. The Holy Trinity (three divine persons aka hypostases) is one in essence and undivided (consubstantial).

Stick with me here:

#1: Is the flesh part of the Trinity?
From my understanding and what I've heard from Christians, yes.
So, Trinity = Father, Son (100% God, 100% Man), Holy ghost but they are one God.

#2: Why did Jesus die on the cross?
His death is the penalty for sin. Only a sinless being with infinite power can take the burden for all of mankind.

#3: Did God die?
From my understanding... Kind of? Did the (100% man, 100% God) Jesus die? How can this be possible? 1 Timothy 6:16 says: "God... who alone is immortal". So did God die?

Christians tell me that it was not the 100% God that died, but the 100% man that died. This is because right at the moment of death, Jesus ceased to be 100% God, so only the Flesh died.
Something on the lines of the God nature didn't actually die, its spirit still lived. Only the Flesh died. What's so special about that though? When we die, the same thing happens lol. We have ever-living souls. My rebuttal to this is still 1 Timothy 6:16 "God... who alone is immortal", God does not taste death, this is what separates God from mortal beings.

#4: So God didn't die for our sins, the no-longer-part-of-the-Trinity Flesh did?
What is so special about the Flesh? The moment Jesus died, this Flesh was no longer part of the Trinity... So who/what exactly even died?

The Flesh = (According to Christians) Sinless
The Flesh = (At the moment of death) Not part of the Trinity AKA not God

The Flesh (one sinless human) does not equal one sinless God

So... This one single sinless human, died for all of humanity? How can one sinless man do it for all of mankind? I can understand "one sinless God", because His power is infinite, but...

A man, who was sinless, but with no Godly powers, died for our sins?

Thank you for your patience.

So- here's the thing. Christ still has a body. Christ is fully God and fully man. He is the Word (Logos) made flesh.

Christ defeated death by death. Sin is missing the mark. The mark is living in accordance to God's will. People were created to commune with God. Christ came to reconcile us to God. In order for us to participate in the energies of God/attain theosis/salvation- we need Christ (very God of very God- both fully God and fully man). We can know God via the person of Christ. As St. Athanasius said, "God became man so that man may become like God." It is a pious opinion that even had sin not entered the world, we still would have need of Christ. In Orthodoxy- we believe that people were not created in this final state of theosis. To go against what they were told by their Creator was a choice they had and did make- the consequence being that death entered the world.

Why is Christ important? Because the scriptures say this about God:

No one has seen or can see God (John 1:18).
He lives in unapproachable light (1 Tim. 6:16).
His ways are unsearchable and unfathomable (Job 11:7-8; Romans 11:33-36).

We look at Christ's work on the cross as being an event that is outside of time. Salvation happened in the past. Via the incarnation (specifically the hypostatic union), it became possible for us to attain theosis. To one in the Church (a Christian), we are being saved. If we persevere, we will be saved in the future. This is only possible through the life, death, and resurrection of Christ. Christ’s suffering death on the cross and resurrection made it possible for us to now have a way through suffering and a way to reconcile ourselves to God (abolishing sin and death) through His human nature. Christ’s ultimate act of suffering love gives us His saving companionship and grace.

Christ went to sheol/hades= the grave (sometimes wrongly translated as hell as in the KJV) for three days and preached to those there, raising them from the dead, and reconciling people to God (abolishing sin). Plus, it wasn't too late for Adam and Eve- even then. In the icon of the Resurrection- Christ is depicted trampling the gates of Hades and lifting Adam and Eve from their graves. Christ destroyed death. It is even mentioned in the New Testament how after the Resurrection- many of the righteous dead were resurrected and appeared to many people. Like Adam, we are dead in our sins, but through Christ (the New Adam) we are brought to life (where we were once dead in our sins).

I think that St. John Chrysostom's Paschal sermon expounds on the significance of Christ's death and resurrection for everyone.

If any man be devout and loveth God,
Let him enjoy this fair and radiant triumphal feast!
If any man be a wise servant,
Let him, rejoicing, enter into the joy of his Lord.

If any have laboured long in fasting,
Let him now receive his recompense.
If any have wrought from the first hour,
Let him today receive his just reward.
If any have come at the third hour,
Let him with thankfulness keep the feast.
If any have arrived at the sixth hour,
Let him have no misgivings;
Because he shall in nowise be deprived therefore.
If any have delayed until the ninth hour,
Let him draw near, fearing nothing.
And if any have tarried even until the eleventh hour,
Let him, also, be not alarmed at his tardiness.

For the Lord, who is jealous of his honour,
Will accept the last even as the first.
He giveth rest unto him who cometh at the eleventh hour,
Even as unto him who hath wrought from the first hour.
And He showeth mercy upon the last,
And careth for the first;
And to the one He giveth,
And upon the other He bestoweth gifts.
And He both accepteth the deeds,
And welcometh the intention,
And honoureth the acts and praises the offering.

Wherefore, enter ye all into the joy of your Lord;
Receive your reward,
Both the first, and likewise the second.
You rich and poor together, hold high festival!
You sober and you heedless, honour the day!
Rejoice today, both you who have fasted
And you who have disregarded the fast.
The table is full-laden; feast ye all sumptuously.
The calf is fatted; let no one go hungry away.
Enjoy ye all the feast of faith:
Receive ye all the riches of loving-kindness.

Let no one bewail his poverty,
For the universal Kingdom has been revealed.
Let no one weep for his iniquities,
For pardon has shown forth from the grave.
Let no one fear death,
For the Saviour's death has set us free.
He that was held prisoner of it has annihilated it.

By descending into Hell, He made Hell captive.
He embittered it when it tasted of His flesh.
And Isaiah, foretelling this, did cry:
Hell, said he, was embittered
When it encountered Thee in the lower regions.

It was embittered, for it was abolished.
It was embittered, for it was mocked.
It was embittered, for it was slain.
It was embittered, for it was overthrown.
It was embittered, for it was fettered in chains.
It took a body, and met God face to face.
It took earth, and encountered Heaven.
It took that which was seen, and fell upon the unseen.

O Death, where is thy sting?
O Hell, where is thy victory?

Christ is risen, and thou art overthrown!
Christ is risen, and the demons are fallen!
Christ is risen, and the angels rejoice!
Christ is risen, and life reigns!
Christ is risen, and not one dead remains in the grave.
For Christ, being risen from the dead,
Is become the first-fruits of those who have fallen asleep.

To Him be glory and dominion
Unto ages of ages.

Amen.

 

[Solomons Porch]

<staff edit>
I am wise enough not to continue to feed something that has no end. I will not keep adding to the confusion that is being created. This OP wanted to know something and by now, my hope is that it is not worse than when he began. If being right looks like this, i do not want it. Because it does not represent my Lord. These are things of the Spirit, man cannot comprehend. As it is well seen. God Bless.....

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Serious question, for Trinitarians I guess. Feel free to correct any of my mistakes.
Follow me here... This might be a long one... So from my understanding:

Trinity = Father is a person, Son is a person, Holy ghost is a person, but they are not three persons but one person.
God = Trinity = Eternal, Immortal, etc. etc.

Stick with me here:
#1: Is the flesh part of the Trinity?
From my understanding and what I've heard from Christians, yes.
So, Trinity = Father, Son (100% God, 100% Man), Holy ghost but they are one God.

#2: Why did Jesus die on the cross?
His death is the penalty for sin. Only a sinless being with infinite power can take the burden for all of mankind.

#3: Did God die?
From my understanding... Kind of? Did the (100% man, 100% God) Jesus die? How can this be possible? 1 Timothy 6:16 says: "God... who alone is immortal". So did God die?

Christians tell me that it was not the 100% God that died, but the 100% man that died. This is because right at the moment of death, Jesus ceased to be 100% God, so only the Flesh died.
Something on the lines of the God nature didn't actually die, its spirit still lived. Only the Flesh died. What's so special about that though? When we die, the same thing happens lol. We have ever-living souls. My rebuttal to this is still 1 Timothy 6:16 "God... who alone is immortal", God does not taste death, this is what separates God from mortal beings.

#4: So God didn't die for our sins, the no-longer-part-of-the-Trinity Flesh did?
What is so special about the Flesh? The moment Jesus died, this Flesh was no longer part of the Trinity... So who/what exactly even died?

The Flesh = (According to Christians) Sinless
The Flesh = (At the moment of death) Not part of the Trinity AKA not God

The Flesh (one sinless human) does not equal one sinless God

So... This one single sinless human, died for all of humanity? How can one sinless man do it for all of mankind? I can understand "one sinless God", because His power is infinite, but...

A man, who was sinless, but with no Godly powers, died for our sins?

Thank you for your patience.

The correct understanding of the Trinity Doctrine was already stated, even thought we can fully comprehend how, 3 Persons, One Being. Each Person is God. One Mind, One Will, yet 3 Persons. So One Person becomes Man - both fully a Man, meaning a rule human but also fully God. So the Incarnation (God in Flesh) has two natures, Divine (God) and human.
Man caused sin and man must bear the responsibility for it. So from the Bible we hear what the first man did (Adam) can only be fixed by a man, which is what Jesus did for us all. God's act of Love for all His creation in offering His Son (the Incarnation - Jesus Christ) makes it possible for all of to be reconciled to God (for our sins).

So in that view the questions could be answered like this and more questions might be asked starting from this basis:

1)So no, there is sense of union there with a human which has God becoming an actual "part" of the flesh. So all the flesh and the human soul that makes up Jesus human nature is 100% human and is a distinct from His Divine Nature. Rather required to in order to make it true that it took another human to correct what Adam did (sin)which effected everyone who came after Adam.
2) God cannot die. So the death of on the Cross was part of His that of His human nature and involved only His Body, as the traditional view of the soul is that our spirit transcends death and is later resurrected with a new body. So yes an innocent Lamb without sin in one view. And yes, one way to look at the Cross is it represents an act of pure Love for all of us. Demonstrated by the Son of God to allow His human suffer for that Love is sufficient (infinitely so) to satisfy God's justified Wrath against all our combined sins.
3) So, no. The Person Who always was and is the Son of God (the Word of God, the Son) is a Spirit that in the Incarnation became joined (for lack of better word) the Man we call Jesus Christ. So at the moment of death, the human body died but the human soul (what is left of our nature after death) is still joined with the same Divine Nature. So even in death, the Resurrection of the human body and even today, the 100% human named Jesus Christ is still also 100%God. BTW as Spirit God has no emotions and cannot change, so while there are two natures, only the human nature can feel the pain and experience death.
4) Again. The human body dies, but the human person still exists in an incomplete form after death of the body because we have a spirit called our soul. We are a soul (spirit) and body. So only the body of Jesus died on Cross. His human soul remains and is still "joined" with the His Divine Nature. So Jesus today remains both God and Human, only now His human Body is like the body Christians hope to have in the next life - obviously different though looking and functioning similar to the body we have now - meaning still flesh (body) and a human soul, and in His case still two Natures, Divine and human.

Many of these details will vary among Christians but have attempted to present rather briefly and simply the basic orthodox/traditional view - hopefully without error in that.

 

[Adstar]

Serious question, for Trinitarians I guess. Feel free to correct any of my mistakes.
Follow me here... This might be a long one... So from my understanding:

Trinity = Father is a person, Son is a person, Holy ghost is a person, but they are not three persons but one person.
God = Trinity = Eternal, Immortal, etc. etc.

Stick with me here:
#1: Is the flesh part of the Trinity?
From my understanding and what I've heard from Christians, yes.
So, Trinity = Father, Son (100% God, 100% Man), Holy ghost but they are one God.

#2: Why did Jesus die on the cross?
His death is the penalty for sin. Only a sinless being with infinite power can take the burden for all of mankind.

#3: Did God die?
From my understanding... Kind of? Did the (100% man, 100% God) Jesus die? How can this be possible? 1 Timothy 6:16 says: "God... who alone is immortal". So did God die?

Christians tell me that it was not the 100% God that died, but the 100% man that died. This is because right at the moment of death, Jesus ceased to be 100% God, so only the Flesh died.
Something on the lines of the God nature didn't actually die, its spirit still lived. Only the Flesh died. What's so special about that though? When we die, the same thing happens lol. We have ever-living souls. My rebuttal to this is still 1 Timothy 6:16 "God... who alone is immortal", God does not taste death, this is what separates God from mortal beings.

#4: So God didn't die for our sins, the no-longer-part-of-the-Trinity Flesh did?
What is so special about the Flesh? The moment Jesus died, this Flesh was no longer part of the Trinity... So who/what exactly even died?

The Flesh = (According to Christians) Sinless
The Flesh = (At the moment of death) Not part of the Trinity AKA not God

The Flesh (one sinless human) does not equal one sinless God

So... This one single sinless human, died for all of humanity? How can one sinless man do it for all of mankind? I can understand "one sinless God", because His power is infinite, but...

A man, who was sinless, but with no Godly powers, died for our sins?

Thank you for your patience.

Your problem seems to be related to how you see death,, How you define death..

Death is the end to life it has never been the end to existence... Once created we are immortal meaning we shall exist forever more.. So physical death is only the death of ones body it is just a transition for one form of existence to another.. So Jesus is the same as us humans in that regard Jesus physical body died and for 3 days and 3 nights He was in another form but after those 3 days he return to His living physical form.. So Jesus experienced Death by execution He died just as we suffer death.. But neither Jesus or you and i will cease to exist upon our deaths.. Death is not the end of us.. It is simply the end of experiencing existence in a physical body in this physical universe.

I hope this helps you understand the fault that lies at the foundation of your thinking..

 

[ViaCrucis]

Serious question, for Trinitarians I guess. Feel free to correct any of my mistakes.
Follow me here... This might be a long one... So from my understanding:

Trinity = Father is a person, Son is a person, Holy ghost is a person, but they are not three persons but one person.

No. Three persons. They are one Being, one Nature, One Essence, one Ousia (Greek for "Be-ing" or "Thing-ness").

The classic language is Three Hypostases and One Ousia. The word Ousia, as noted, means Be-ing or refers to "thing-ness", the fundamental WHAT of a thing. In regard to a rock it would be rock-ness. In regard to say me, it would be my human-ness.

When we say one Ousia, we aren't just saying there is one kind of thing (God-ness) and there are three instances of it, (e.g. three gods); which one might be forgiven to think at first, after all, you, me, and that guy over there are all human and have the common nature of human-ness, but we are three entirely separate human beings. Three instances of human being. Unlike that, however, there is only one instance of Deity.

I want to touch upon this more, but first it's important we talk about the meaning of hypostasis here, which has been rendered often as "person" into English. The Greek word hypostasis (plural hypostases) comes from a compound of two other words: hypo (meaning "under") and stasis (meaning "to stand"); it had a lot of different meanings depending on context. One example would be that in a container of standing liquid the sediment that floated to the bottom would be "hypostasis" a kind of literal use. Though as used by early Christians it was used in the sense of referring to the fundamental reality of a something, in relation to the Trinity it would therefore refer to the fact that the Father is fundamentally real and has "Father-ness" which is distinct from the Son who is also fundamentally real and has "Son-ness" and so on and so forth.

That is to say, the use of hypostasis here refers to the fact that the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are not imaginary or subjective, as was imagined by the Sabellians. Sabellianism was an ancient Christian heresy that said that God was a single hypostasis that wore different "masks" or "faces" variously as "Father", "Son", and "Spirit" as occasion arose; and thus God expressed Himself through various modes, faces, or expressions which weren't fundamentally real, but only for the sake of expressing Himself to the world. There in fact wasn't a Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, there was only God acting in various ways and expressing Himself differently, as though say you might be a father to your children, a husband to your wife, and a colleague to your co-worker. Trinitarianism adamantly rejects this, insisting instead that we are referring to real, actual, concrete "Someones"; the terms "Father" and "Son" are not merely ways the one God expresses Himself to creatures, there is instead and in fact a relational reality between the Father and the Son within the economy of God Himself. There is Father, there is Son, there is Holy Spirit; three real, actual, existing; but of the one and same indivisible Ousia; that is the Father is the one God, the Son is the one God, the Spirit is the one God; not three gods, not three instances of god-ness, not three partaking in a fourth "thing" called god that is somehow an external reality to the three.

And that's where we return to Ousia. The Father's own Ousia, is what the Son and the Spirit are. The Son is not God apart from the Father, but is God from and of the Father--that is when we say the Son is God we are saying the Son is of the Father's Essence. Likewise when we say the Holy Spirit is God we are saying the Holy Spirit is of the Father's Essence. The Son is God because the Father is God. The Holy Spirit is God because the Father is God. The Son is WHAT the Father is, not in the same way that I am what my father is, I am a completely different human being than my father; the Son is not separate, or other, but is what the Father is because the Son's Being is the Father's Being--one, same, actual existing Reality. That is why the Son is "God of God" as found in the Nicene Creed. The Son has His Reality from and of the Father, not in time but in eternity, He is "begotten of the Father before all ages" again as the Nicene Creed says. He is "eternally begotten", there was never a time the Son was not, as long as the Father has been, the Son also; the Son never began to be, but always is. Not a similar or different Thing than the Father, but the same Thing as the Father.

God = Trinity

= Eternal, Immortal, etc. etc.

Stick with me here:
#1: Is the flesh part of the Trinity?
From my understanding and what I've heard from Christians, yes.
So, Trinity = Father, Son (100% God, 100% Man), Holy ghost but they are one God.

Insofar as Jesus Christ is the eternal Son/Logos made human, then yes. Jesus, being the God-Man, means that humanity is irrevocably and indelibly connected to the Triune Godhead.

#2: Why did Jesus die on the cross?

His death is the penalty for sin. Only a sinless being with infinite power can take the burden for all of mankind.

That's one theory. There is no single definitive "Theory of Atonement" in Christianity, what you've described is more-or-less Satisfaction Theory, which was first promulgated by St. Anselm of Canterbury in the 11th century in his work Cur Deus Homo, Why God Became Human; Anselm argued, and we can see the feudalistic medieval context working on Anselm's thoughts here, that God being the great Lord of all was deserving of the highest and greatest honor, thus when man sinned and fell God's honor was offended and God became owed a debt of honor. Human beings, being sinful, mortal, and incomprehensibly weak are unable to pay back this honor debt, it is entirely outside of our ability; so God becomes man in order that one who is God's equal can, as a human being, on man's behalf pay back this great debt of honor.

This was later modified under St. Thomas Aquinas to be a debt against God's justice, rather than God's honor. And still later under the writings of John Calvin the 16th century Protestant reformer there was added another idea: That it was necessary for there to be punishment for sin, and thus Christ pays the debt of man owed to God by receiving the totality of God's punishment and wrath for sin, which is death. This form of Satisfaction Theory is known as Penal Substitution Theory.

But you'll notice that these all only go back to the 11th century, and only refer to ideas in the West. The ancient fathers of the Church instead seem to adhere to ideas which are referred to as Recapitultion Theory and Ransom Theory, which have always been the dominant ways of thinking in the Christian East, and have been reintroduced into the West in the form known as Christus Victor Theory, named after the work of Swedish Lutheran theologian, Gustaf Aulen's book by the same name.

#3: Did God die?

From my understanding... Kind of? Did the (100% man, 100% God) Jesus die? How can this be possible? 1 Timothy 6:16 says: "God... who alone is immortal". So did God die?

The orthodox belief of the Christian Church, as believed by Protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox (both Eastern and Oriental Orthdoox) is that Jesus Christ is both God and man without confusion or separation. That statement "without separation" is specifically a refutation of the heresy known as Nestorianism; it emphasizes that we cannot separate one from the other, there is no "divine Jesus" and "human Jesus", there is only Jesus, God-and-man, or in Greek Theanthropos ("God-Man"). So when Jesus is born, God is born (we call Mary Theotokos or "God-bearer" and mother of God for this reason, not because Mary is the source of divinity, but because God Himself inhabited her womb for 9 months). So on the cross, who dies? The only proper answer is Jesus.

Which leads us to the paradox of our faith: God who cannot die, died. What is impossible happened.

Christians tell me that it was not the 100% God that died, but the 100% man that died.

A common error among a lot of Christians today who simply don't know any better and have been improperly taught their faith.

This is because right at the moment of death, Jesus ceased to be 100% God, so only the Flesh died.

That is rank heresy, and is rejected by every mainstream, orthodox Christian church in the world. Any Christian who said this is deeply misinformed and needs to go back to the basics.

#4: So God didn't die for our sins, the no-longer-part-of-the-Trinity Flesh did?

What is so special about the Flesh? The moment Jesus died, this Flesh was no longer part of the Trinity... So who/what exactly even died?

Jesus Christ, the God-Man, died.

The Flesh = (According to Christians) Sinless
The Flesh = (At the moment of death) Not part of the Trinity AKA not God

The Flesh (one sinless human) does not equal one sinless God

So... This one single sinless human, died for all of humanity? How can one sinless man do it for all of mankind? I can understand "one sinless God", because His power is infinite, but...

A man, who was sinless, but with no Godly powers, died for our sins?

Thank you for your patience.

The rest of your questions largely follow the false premise that Jesus ceased being God at some point, and/or that "only the humanity" died; both are false teachings, heresies actually, and are rejected by every mainstream Christian church and denomination. Any church that teaches this is unorthodox and heretical.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[REBEL CRUSADER]

Let's just say you were adopted at a young age and never new your parents (just so this doesn't sound too gross). One day some interdimensional portal opens up in front of you, and sends you hurling decades back in time. You hook up with a woman, you have a child, and put him up for adoption. That child is you. That woman is your mother. There is you the son, there is you the father, and you have the same spirit.

God the Father and God the Son have the same Holy Spirit. Christ did not have a human spirit like you and I do. His is the Holy Spirit. His flesh was 100% human flesh. His Spirit was 100% God.

 

[rockytopva]

If E = mc2 then we can divide and conclude that...

Mass (m) = Energy (E/c2)

And there are three varieties...

Natural E/c2 - All mass is basically cooled plasma
Mental E/c2 - Mentally, A mathematical formula, but this has chemical and spiritual properties as well.
Spiritual E/c2 - E (motivation, warmth, love) / c2 (faith, hope, charity, joy)

God the Father is energy and light. He can disassociate the mass in plasma, and re-associate the plasma in mass to his liking. Mass cannot be destroyed but merely changes form. The mass of this universe may have changed form billions of times throughout the eternal ages.

But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: - John 15:26

Christ Jesus proceeds from the Father
The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father
All things proceed from the Father

The Father is God of all energy and light and is the one above all. Jesus testified of his power by saying,

Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. - John 14:28

As far as the religious definitions of the trinity, many have contradicted one another. The video below explains why...

"The problem with using analogies to explain the Holy Trinity is that you always end up confessing some ancient heresy." - The Lutheran Satire

 

[St_Worm2]

Excellent and funny

 

[redleghunter]

If E = mc2 then we can divide and conclude that...

Mass (m) = Energy (E/c2)

And there are three varieties...

Natural E/c2 - All mass is basically cooled plasma
Mental E/c2 - Mentally, A mathematical formula, but this has chemical and spiritual properties as well.
Spiritual E/c2 - E (motivation, warmth, love) / c2 (faith, hope, charity, joy)

God the Father is energy and light. He can disassociate the mass in plasma, and re-associate the plasma in mass to his liking. Mass cannot be destroyed but merely changes form. The mass of this universe may have changed form billions of times throughout the eternal ages.

But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: - John 15:26

Christ Jesus proceeds from the Father
The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father
All things proceed from the Father

The Father is God of all energy and light and is the one above all. Jesus testified of his power by saying,

Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. - John 14:28

As far as the religious definitions of the trinity, many have contradicted one another. The video below explains why...

"The problem with using analogies to explain the Holy Trinity is that you always end up confessing some ancient heresy." - The Lutheran Satire

I am a big fan of Patrick of Hibernia, yet that video was informative and funny.

 

[buzuxi02]

Trinity = Father is a person, Son is a person, Holy ghost is a person, but they are not three persons but one person.

No. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are 3 hypostasis of the one and same divine substance.

#1: Is the flesh part of the Trinity?

No. The Second hypostasis (person) of the Trinity emptied himself and assumed flesh and a rational soul and made it his very own. This is called the hypostatic union, where the Logos ineffably and hypostatically became true man having come into the our world as the Child of Mary. There is no increase or decrease in the uncreated Godhead by the hypostatic union.

#3: Did God die?
From my understanding... Kind of? Did the (100% man, 100% God) Jesus die? How can this be possible? 1 Timothy 6:16 says: "God... who alone is immortal". So did God die?

It was Jesus the person, whom was born and seen and walked and was beheld that died on the cross. Neither the human nature nor the divine nature ceases upon earthly death. Thus the one and same person Jesus suffered and died in the flesh. Your understanding or whomever you got your information from is teaching an ultra-extreme form of the nestorian heresy. In fact it violates a number of the ancient anathemas:

II. If anyone shall not confess that the Word of God the Father is united hypostatically to flesh, and that with that flesh of his own, he is one only Christ both God and man at the same time: let him be anathema.

III. If anyone shall after the [hypostatic] union divide the hypostases in the one Christ, joining them by that connexion alone, which happens according to worthiness, or even authority and power, and not rather by a coming together, which is made by natural union: let him be anathema.
VIII. If anyone shall dare to say that the assumed man ought to be worshipped together with God the Word, and glorified together with him, and recognised together with him as God, and yet as two different things, the one with the other; and shall not rather with one adoration worship the Emmanuel and pay to him one glorification, as [it is written] “The Word was made flesh”: let him be anathema.​

 

[ViaCrucis]

Let's just say you were adopted at a young age and never new your parents (just so this doesn't sound too gross). One day some interdimensional portal opens up in front of you, and sends you hurling decades back in time. You hook up with a woman, you have a child, and put him up for adoption. That child is you. That woman is your mother. There is you the son, there is you the father, and you have the same spirit.

God the Father and God the Son have the same Holy Spirit. Christ did not have a human spirit like you and I do. His is the Holy Spirit. His flesh was 100% human flesh. His Spirit was 100% God.

I know this isn't a debate board, but I would be remiss if I didn't point out that the above is completely out of line with traditional, orthodox Christian teaching.

For one, Christ does have a human soul, seeing as He is fully and entirely human He is confessed as being of a "rational soul and body" (c.f. the Definition of Chalcedon), which means a human body and a human soul.

The Holy Spirit is not to Christ what the human soul or spirit is to you and I, the Holy Spirit is a distinct person from the Son.

The above post, largely, amounts to Sabellianism, an ancient heresy.

-CryptoLuthearn

 

[REBEL CRUSADER]

I know this isn't a debate board, but I would be remiss if I didn't point out that the above is completely out of line with traditional, orthodox Christian teaching.

For one, Christ does have a human soul, seeing as He is fully and entirely human He is confessed as being of a "rational soul and body" (c.f. the Definition of Chalcedon), which means a human body and a human soul.

The Holy Spirit is not to Christ what the human soul or spirit is to you and I, the Holy Spirit is a distinct person from the Son.

The above post, largely, amounts to Sabellianism, an ancient heresy.

-CryptoLuthearn

I did not say He did not have a human soul. I said He did not have a human spirit.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

"rational soul and body"

Your soul is your mind, and probably your heart working together. If your body was ripped away, and your brain and heart were put in a jar on life support... even without all your limbs, appendages, entrails after having them torn away from you, you would still be you. Your mind and your heart is the soul of that bio-mechanical machine you're in.

I never said that Christ didn't have a human heart or a human brain. If you see the Son, you see the Father because they share the same Spirit between them.

His body, mind, and heart was all human flesh. His Spirit was more than a human spirit. His Spirit was so powerful unlike a human spirit that He wasn't even tempted by any of that which the flesh desires. In order to be tempted, there has to be a desire, a lust for whatever it is that is tempting you to engage in it.

Mathew 5:28
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Jesus didn't know sin. He did not engage in any. He never lusted or sexually desired for any women or for anything worldly. If he was ever tempted, then he would of had to have the desire and, by His own admission He'd be a sinner. His Spirit had to be the Holy Spirit capable of over powering all worldly desire. That is the 100% God about Him.

 

[FireDragon76]

God the Son died a human death on the Cross.

 

[REBEL CRUSADER]

God the Son died a human death on the Cross.

Yes. His flesh was that of a human mortal, and He died a human mortal death.