Who wants to pray for the MP with me?

[Michael G]

I will once again have to be the one to defend the EP.

I truly understand all the concerns but so far I haven't seen anything that justifies the attacks to the EP. Meeting with the Pope obviously needs no approval by any council, any bishop can meet with anyone he wants.

As far as the document goes, its content is something I can basically agree to. It is saying nothing that we didn't know and it of course does not say anything about the EP, the way MOscow implies. Quite the contrary, while recognizing primacy it contains the phrase that the Orthodox do not recognise primacy in the manner of jurisdiction.

Moscow and Constantinople have a lot of things to talk about, both sides with their faults and merits. I think it would be best for us laymen to not take sides in this. And please do remember that Constantinople is the very heart of Greek Orthodoxy, and it is being openly persecuted. When I say Greek, I really do not mean that in a nationalistic sense but as a carrier of culture, language, musi and ethos of the Church for more than a millenia. It is precious and should be guarded.

Moscow hasn't helped in that respect at all and neither has Greece I am ashamed to say, although this seems to be changing with the new archbishop.

In any case, this is Church politics and let us all be careful not to speak ill of a patriarch of the Church because of something we have heard and repeated.

How is Constantinople the very heart of Orthodoxy when the actual number of people under the leadership of the EP is actually quite small?

 

[Rowan]

And I have to say, I've read and re-read the Ravenna document and Orthodox eccelesiology does not seemed to be compromised, hence my confusion as to the MP's criticism of the EP.

Still praying, just to let you guys know.

How is Constantinople the very heart of Orthodoxy when the actual number of people under the leadership of the EP is actually quite small?

Wasn't here in TAW that I read that if there is but one Orthodox parish where one Divine Liturgy is being celebrated by one priest in the presence one parishoner, that is the fullness of the Church?

I'm not trying to be a smart-aleck, but I've never understood the appeal to the MP's greater numbers vs. the EP's.

 

[Michael G]

And I have to say, I've read and re-read the Ravenna document and Orthodox eccelesiology does not seemed to be compromised, hence my confusion as to the MP's criticism of the EP.

Still praying, just to let you guys know.



Wasn't here in TAW that I read that if there is but one Orthodox parish where one Divine Liturgy is being celebrated by one priest in the presence one parishoner, that is the fullness of the Church?

I'm not trying to be a smart-aleck, but I've never understood the appeal to the MP's greater numbers vs. the EP's.

Yes, where the Bishop is there is the church, but that does not give any one bishop any more authority to speak for the church than any other bishop. The EP does not seem to understand this idea and thus is being un-Orthodox when he attempts to speak for the whole church like a Pope would.

 

[Rowan]

The EP does not seem to understand this idea and thus is being un-Orthodox when he attempts to speak for the whole church like a Pope would.

Which leads me back to: How is the EP doing this? By meeting with other bishops?

 

[rusmeister]

I think the danger that Michael's concerned about would be in how the EP is perceived by the outside (non-Orthodox) world. When his place of honor is mentioned, he gets treated something like the Pope, and many people would think that he speaks for the Orthodox Church in the way the Pope speaks for the Roman Church. Nicht war, Mike?

 

[Michael G]

I think the danger that Michael's concerned about would be in how the EP is perceived by the outside (non-Orthodox) world. When his place of honor is mentioned, he gets treated something like the Pope, and many people would think that he speaks for the Orthodox Church in the way the Pope speaks for the Roman Church. Nicht war, Mike?

Pretty well said, Rusmeister!

 

[cassc]

It keeps striking me that even though this got some (albeit very limited) press in reality we are each representing Orthodoxy everyday in everything we say and do- particularly when we post on forums such as this. Not that I mean to equate a statement made by any of the Patriarch to a comment we post here, but let's not forget that each of us has power, and with power comes great responsibility ( sorry I couldn't resist!) but it really is true!!

Lord Have Mercy

 

[Thekla]

OK, so one side can beat up on the MP while nothing can be said about the EP... ummm, doesn't work that way.

I think it would be better to "beat up" on neither ...

 

[Rowan]

I think it would be better to "beat up" on neither ...

Exactly.

(My comp ate my longer post (maybe for the better))

I only started this thread to clear up my confusion (an issue that's on my prayer list but doesn't really over-occupy my mind, thank God), and it would suck if it had to be moved to St. Justin's (but through his intercession may our actions work out our salvation in fear and trembling). This thread turning polemical would make me a sad panda.

I hear you rumeister, but I don't think the EP is to be blamed for misconceptions in reporting, whose authors are merely unaware of Orthodox ecclesiology, and seek a "representative source" to get another side of the story to get the job done. That's forgivable enough when Orthodoxy even makes public news at all! Let's seek to educate, in meekness, of course, our neighbor then.

It just seems like he's an influential Patriarch and his personal actions seem newsworthy. The actions of the other individual Patriarchs (or Metropolitans, or Bishops, or what have you) are also seen as newsworthy and reported without any disclaimer not representing the Orthodox Churches outside their jurisdictions.

 

[Philothei]

OK, so one side can beat up on the MP while nothing can be said about the EP... ummm, doesn't work that way.

when did I beat up on the MP or anyone else??? Actually I am in support of MP as of the Late Chrystodoulos of Athens was in support
I have nothing but admiration for Alexei and his efforts to keep the church going in Russia doing an excellent job... I believe that it DOES NOT MATTER WHO IS FIRST ... of honor... we are all Orthodox and no one is greater than the next guy....

 

[MariaRegina]

I have nothing but admiration for Alexei and his efforts to keep the church going in Russia doing an excellent job... I believe that it DOES NOT MATTER WHO IS FIRST ... of honor... we are all Orthodox and no one is greater than the next guy....

Amen.

 

[Philothei]

Moscow patriarchate rejects Catholic-Orthodox statement on papal primacy 2008-05-20 Moscow, May. 20, 2008 (CWNews.com) - The Russian Orthodox Church has officially rejected a doctrinal statement approved by a joint Catholic-Orthodox theological commission at a meeting in Ravenna, Italy last October.

The Ravenna meeting reached agreement that the Bishop of Rome traditionally enjoyed primacy among all the world's bishops, of both the Eastern and Western churches. While Vatican officials hailed the agreement as an important ecumenical landmark, they cautioned that the Catholic and Orthodox churches have a different understanding of primacy. Indeed the Ravenna document noted "differences of understanding with regard to the manner in which it is to be exercised, and also with regard to its scriptural and theological foundations."

The Russian Orthodox rejection of the Ravenna statement is not a surprise, since representatives of the Moscow patriarchate were critical of the document when it first appeared. Russian prelates said that the Ravenna agreement implied that the Patriarch of Constantinople was the leader of the Orthodox world, just as the Pope is the leader of the Catholic Church. The Moscow patriarchate, which has often contested Constantinople's leadership, rejected that idea.

In January, Patriarch Alexei of Moscow charged that the Ravenna meeting had been "deliberately orchestrated to exclude the Moscow patriarchate." In fact, Russian Orthodox representatives walked out of the meeting before discussions began, protesting the seating of a delegation from the Estonian Orthodox Church, which Moscow does not recognize.



http://www.byzcath.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2420&Itemid=49

I was pretty sure this was coming, but still...

I respect the MP for standing up for Orthodoxy, but from the outside, it looks more like an earthly power struggle than a defense of the Faith.

What's up with what I bolded above? Is this true, or did the authors of the article put their own spin there?

I will say it again as I said it before that I know first hand that this meeting was a fluke and nothing has come out of it... The MP walked out and the meeting ended... End of story .... There was no conclusion only what the RC wanted to believe... There was no statement as yet to confirm that from any Orthodox participant only unofficially though this meeting never came to any fruition.. There has been an official doc.. in the SCOBA website I think "brushing" shortly on the issue. Actually it was a communication from the GOA but I have no idea if itwas only circulated among the delegates of the meeting. It came breefly to my hands... and it did state that our position with the RC has not changed... So ... if anyone has any proof for the opposite in this situation it would be nice to bring forth that "official" information rather than posting "rumours" of unidentified sources....

 

[ikonographics]

Yes, where the Bishop is there is the church, but that does not give any one bishop any more authority to speak for the church than any other bishop. The EP does not seem to understand this idea and thus is being un-Orthodox when he attempts to speak for the whole church like a Pope would.

But that is precisely what the MP is doing of late.

 

[Michael G]

But that is precisely what the MP is doing of late.

No, that is not what Moscow is doing. Moscow is protecting the rest of the Orthodox world from a Patriarch who has a bit too much ambition and ego. If the EP didn't have too much of an ego he would have no issue with recognizing the TOMOS of Autocephaly the MP rightfully granted to the OCA in 1970. The OCA was the mission child of the MP and as such it was the MP's business to grant autocephaly to the OCA, not the business of the EP.

 

[Vasileios]

How is Constantinople the very heart of Orthodoxy when the actual number of people under the leadership of the EP is actually quite small?

Two things.

First, I specifically said the heart of Greek Orthodoxy, not in the nationalistic sense, but in the sense of culture, heritage, music, ethos.

Secondly, how many people are under the "leadership" of the EP is of zero concern to us. One simple walk into the streets of Constantinople, one gaze up the dome of the Hagia Sophia, one liturgy in St. George with the column of Christ's flagellation and the relics of St. John Chrysostom and St. Gregory the Theologian are enough for me to experience the magnitute of importance Constantinople had AND has in the history of Orthodoxy.

Just like you would never say "Jerusalem is a mere province with a small Orthodox population", likewise, you cannot measure Constantinople by the size of its flock. It is the area where Orthodoxy flourished, theologically, architecturally, musically and spread everywhere dynamically and organically. It is where Greek civilisation reached its climax and everyone who honours the greek heritage of Orthodoxy, should honour and PROTECT Constantinople.

The last verb is my main issue. I can understand why Russians have problems with the EP and why the EP may have problems with the Russians, although I really, really don't want to get immersed in the politics discussion (and with respect, your last post is another opener for a discussion about politics), however, whatever the case is, Constantinople is an ancient See, with undeniable status of primacy of honour and this honour is not being respected.

Honouring the first among equals is not NOTHING. It is like honouring the elder, the abbot of the monastery (without wanting to extend this metaphor to another discussion of jurisdiction and leadership). Whatever the real power of Constantinople is or should be, I see a constant mud-slinging at the EP that is SHAMEFUL and I have first seen it coming from my own country.

We should never forget that we have ALL been baptized from the myrrh of Constantinople at the very least and that Constantinople is WAY larger than Patriarch Barhtolomeos, the size of the flock. It is 1700 years of Orthodoxy, illumination.

Russia has endured 80 years of Communist persecution. Constantinople is still under persecution after more than 500 years. Constantinople has guarded under these circumstances all the faith, the accurate expression of faith in iconography and chanting. Today, every byzantine chanter will bring the standard of Constantinople's chanters. An anchor to our tradition.

Anyway. I'll finish by saying that I am positively scandalized everytime I see the irreverence displayed at the EP. Even if Russia gets primacy, conciliary or otherwise, this still does not justify the animosity and irreverence.

 

[Michael G]

Anyway. I'll finish by saying that I am positively scandalized everytime I see the irreverence displayed at the EP. Even if Russia gets primacy, conciliary or otherwise, this still does not justify the animosity and irreverence.

I am scandalized every time I hear the mainstream press refer to the EP as the leader of the Worlds Orthodox Christians.

 

[Thekla]

I am scandalized every time I hear the mainstream press refer to the EP as the leader of the Worlds Orthodox Christians.

there is very little that the mainstream media says that I can ever respect, on any topic

 

[Michael G]

there is very little that the mainstream media says that I can ever respect, on any topic

But the EP does very little to give them any reason to think otherwise.

 

[Philothei]

Yes Michael you are scandalized but still that does not justify your polemics against EP.... How many times MP had 'talks' with the pope? oh... I forgot that is okay since the MP did that... hm... Now this has come to my attention from and OCA priest ... I think he was quite openminded to admit that the MP has been as "obstinate" and "missbehaving" as EP.... is thought to be. When are we going to realize that the enemy should not be from within (politics) and instead of bickering consentrate on what unite us... I agree with Vassilios that instead of fighting over the so called 'primus in parus' we should honor our Patriarchate for its history alone.... IMO we should value all sees as historically contributed to what we have today the local Church ....

 

[Michael G]

Yes Michael you are scandalized but still that does not justify your polemics against EP.... How many times MP had 'talks' with the pope? oh... I forgot that is okay since the MP did that... hm... Now this has come to my attention from and OCA priest ... I think he was quite openminded to admit that the MP has been as "obstinate" and "missbehaving" as EP.... is thought to be. When are we going to realize that the enemy should not be from within (politics) and instead of bickering consentrate on what unite us... I agree with Vassilios that instead of fighting over the so called 'primus in parus' we should honor our Patriarchate for its history alone.... IMO we should value all sees as historically contributed to what we have today the local Church ....

When the EP officially recognizes the Church that I was Chrismated in is its own autocephalous church and not part of the MP, then I might start to give him a little more respect. Granted in Orthodoxy there is lag time given for communication to go between bishops, but 38 years is quite a bit of lag time, don't you think? It really makes me wonder if the only reason the EP won't rightfully recognize the OCA is because he would then have to admit that the Antiochians and GOARCH should eventually become part of an AOC (American Orthodox Church) which would in turn cut off a major portion of his funding. Or, worse yet, maybe it is a matter of pride? Until then, I think he needs to mind to his own Patriarchate and stop trying to form relations with heretics, like Rome. Sorry I have to be so blunt, but if you Greeks are going to let me have it, then you should know I am going to let you know how I feel about the matter.