Who Should Control the city of Jerusalem?

Well, we don't do that because we are not a Bible-believing, prophetic nation - that's why.

I believe that, for instance, the Arab oil-producing nations are operating under the blessings that God pronounced on Ishmael due to Abraham's pleading. Their blessings are right now, right here on earth. What they do with those blessings will determine their future. I find it interesting that Jordan which has no oil to speak of and Iraq which has been de-fanged but which has yet to prosper again from it's oil, are not mentioned in Ezekiel as going up against Israel. Therefore, they will not be destroyed! Biblically speaking, of course.

I don't claim to know whether the fate of our nation rests on our blessing Israel, but I do know that the good old USA is not mentioned prophetically apart from the fact that all nations, but two, come up against Israel. Either we don't exist anymore or we will attack Israel. Either way, it's not much of a future.

MezzaMorta said:

Clearly you are, just because a few Jews worked in the government doesn’t mean that the US was a friendly place for Jews. That didn’t occur in till after WW2…. Go look up the Jim Crow laws. Yes we all know that they oppressed the blacks well into the 1970’s…. but little known is that many of the Jim Crow laws were applied to Jews as well.

You should watch the movie Focus with William H. Macy. It is about a man who in the 1930’s gets a pair of glasses. But the thing is, these glasses make him look Jewish. He loses his job, is outcast by his community…. It is written off a book that was a true story.

Anti-Jewish sentiment was common and widespread right up to the end of WW2. It was only because of the holocaust that it has lost its mass appeal.

I know Americans like to think they are the pinnacle of civil rights and tolerance, but Jews were subject to just as much discrimination in the US as they were accost Europe.



The status of “Dhimmis” has only been used twice in history, once in the time of Muhammad, and again in 1383 in a Turkish town of Jecteta.

Click to expand...

Really? That's fascinating. America's discrimination was "just as bad" as Europe's? That kinda makes me wonder why exactly so many Jews left Europe to come here.
Look: I never said there wasn't anti-semitism here. I just said America has historically been better than the Ottomans. That's not a particularly high bar. Jews never had to pay special taxes in the US. Jews were never forbidden from exercising their second amendment rights. To the best of my knowledge (though this may in fact be inaccurate), Jews were never forbidden from building or rebuilding their synagogues. Something doesn't have to be perfect to be better than the Ottomans.
Again: really? Dhimmitude was only used twice in all of Islamic history? Again: that's funny, because I'm pretty sure Jews and Christians weren't equals under the Al-Moravids, Fatimids, Umayads...etc, etc.
That many Islamic states were far gentler to their Jews than the vast majority of Catholic Europe is beyond doubt. I applaud them. But to paraphrase you: I find it amusing the way in which you Middle Easterners treat your region like it's the pinacle of civilization and tolerance. Because as civilized as it has been it times, it's rarely been truly tolerant.

MezzaMorta said:

Spend enough time and selectively take enough information and you could likely claim the same between the US and any other nation.

What about all the nations that have supported Israel and have been anything but blessed? What about the nations that have opposed Israel and are anything but cursed?

It is absolutely scary, and horrifying that there are people in this nation that actually believe the fate of this nation and its people is dependent on our support for Israel. If that is the most important factor, how come we don’t send the entire US army to invade all of Israel’s neghbiours, give them all the land after we commit genocide on the Arab people, then have the US become a protectorate of Israel? Seems only logical if what you say is true.

Click to expand...

Ya know, I don't even believe any of this "modern Israel is a blest nation in the Bible" nonsense. Yet I read your comments and desperately ttried to come up with a nation which opposes Israel and isn't at least a partial basket-case.

Still tryin...

Oddly enough, I suspect that this is because any nation which is that obsessed with another nation is bound to be a basket-case.
The same can be said of anti-American nations (with the scary exception of the PRC, but this is partially because they're actually dealing with their problems).

Really? That's fascinating. America's discrimination was "just as bad" as Europe's? That kinda makes me wonder why exactly so many Jews left Europe to come here.

Click to expand...

Discrimination is discrimination… how many tens of thousands of Jews trying to escape Germany in the late 30’s were turned away by America, sent back to Germany and the gas chambers?

The US government and military knew about the concentration camps as early as the middle of the 1940’s, the oppression and persecution of the Jews even before that. They didn’t life a finger the help in till they were forced to by Japan bombing Hawaii, even then during the war there was no attempts made to liberate concentration camps in till the war was basically over, the Soviet Union ended up liberating most of them. In fact the US killed thousands of Jewish concentration camp victims by bombing the factories and fields they were working in… but they couldn’t do a few bombing runs on the trains bring the Jews in or the gas chambers?

They didn’t care about the Jews, they were treated just as badly as the blacks and looked upon as just as inferior as the blacks.

I just said America has historically been better than the Ottomans.

Click to expand...

In context of the time and situation in the rest of the world… nope.

Millions of Jews were expelled by Spain in the last 15th century I believe, put on ships and sent towards North Africa. Tens of thousands died. The Ottomans sent their entire western navy to pick up these refugees, sent them accost the Ottoman Empire, gave them land, money, food. They welcomed them with open arms. Gave them political, religious, social and economic rights that the Jews had not experienced since they had their own nation thousands of years previous. And in the Ottoman empire these jews flourished.

500 years later and in a similar situation, the US turned away the Jewish refugees, sending them back to Germany, back to the gas chambers.

Dhimmitude was only used twice in all of Islamic history? Again: that's funny, because I'm pretty sure Jews and Christians weren't equals under the Al-Moravids, Fatimids, Umayads...etc, etc.

Click to expand...

They were, your complete misunderstanding of what Dhimmitude as in Islamic law is no doubt. All it is, is that Jews and Christians must pay a Jizzaya (Protection tax). Under Islamic law all males are required to serve in the army, seeing as according ot the Qur’an this is in a Islamic state non-muslims can not be required to serve in an Muslim army. So instead of having to partake in mandatory military service, non-muslims pay the Jizzaya. They can opt to serve in the military just as any Muslim man would in which case they are exempt from the Jizzaya.

The closest thing that Islamic law states as to “oppression” would be that non-Muslims are not allowed to publicly display their religion.

At various times though out history certain leaders have taken this and added on to it, but the fundmental nature of it as to it is in Islamic law is not one of oppression or persecution.

Still tryin...

Click to expand...

UAE.

ContentInHim said:

Well, we don't do that because we are not a Bible-believing, prophetic nation - that's why.

I believe that, for instance, the Arab oil-producing nations are operating under the blessings that God pronounced on Ishmael due to Abraham's pleading. Their blessings are right now, right here on earth. What they do with those blessings will determine their future. I find it interesting that Jordan which has no oil to speak of and Iraq which has been de-fanged but which has yet to prosper again from it's oil, are not mentioned in Ezekiel as going up against Israel. Therefore, they will not be destroyed! Biblically speaking, of course.

I don't claim to know whether the fate of our nation rests on our blessing Israel, but I do know that the good old USA is not mentioned prophetically apart from the fact that all nations, but two, come up against Israel. Either we don't exist anymore or we will attack Israel. Either way, it's not much of a future.

Click to expand...

Jordan and Iraq have been amoung the most anti-israel nations in modern history.

MezzaMorta said:

Jordan and Iraq have been amoung the most anti-israel nations in modern history.

Click to expand...

And yet Jordan has honored it's treaty with Israel admirably! I believe that God will protect Jordan because of that!

Iraq is toothless and either can't do anything because we are still there or will be so weak if we leave that they still can't muster an army to go against Israel.

Egypt will break it's treaty with Israel to attack her - so says Ezekiel.

[FONT=&quot] And yet Jordan has honored it's treaty with Israel admirably

Click to expand...

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Such a statement would require some knowledge on the reality of the situation, by virtue of the fact you think that Jordan has sought nothing but peaceful co-existence with Israel as it exists today demonstrates you have aboulslty no knowledge on the situation. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Black September caused a great rift between Jordan and the PLO, but it remains that a significant amount of Jordan’s population are Palestinians who were forced from their home by the creation of Israel as well as Palestinians forced from their homes in later acts of Israel. Jordanian support for a wide array of originations committed to the destruction of Israel remains one of the highest in the Arab world, Jordanian commitment to mutual defense agreements with Arab states against Israel remains one of the strongest and Jordanian efforts to see an end of the Zionist occupation are one of the largest in the Arab world. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] The Jordanian people have suffered greatly at the hands of Israel. Like all people of the Middle East and farther have. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

I believe that God will protect Jordan because of that

Click to expand...

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]For all your faith in God, you do not seem to put much faith in his act of giving us free will. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

Iraq is toothless and either can't do anything because we are still there or will be so weak if we leave that they still can't muster an army to go against Israel.

Click to expand...

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Iraqi insurgence are wageing an effective insurgency against the most powerful military in the world, they have successfully been able to continue it for a prolonged period of time and in all likelihood the US will withdraw from Iraq in the near future and those Shi’a insurgence will be successful in combating the Sunni elements in Iraq and ultimately form the powerbase of a new Iraq… in what ever form it turns out. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Saddam was no friend of Israel, but an Iranian allied shi’a Iraq is even less so. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If there is any nation Israel as the most to fear from, it is Iran and her allies. Not only is the Iranian military the most powerful in the region and most likely to pose a threat to Israel, but Iran is also the most vocal in the destruction of Israel.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]As much zeal as you have for the state of Israel, they have against it, supported by their commitment to rejoin Islamic holy lands and bring about the coming of the 13th imam.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Kind of scary actually that your mentality and the mentality of Iran are pretty much the same, both seeing Israel as a battleground for the soon approaching end of the world……[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

Egypt will break it's treaty with Israel to attack her - so says Ezekiel.

Click to expand...

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Show me where Ezekiel predicts the modern geo-political landscape and details this events. [/FONT]

ContentInHim said:

And yet Jordan has honored it's treaty with Israel admirably!

I believe that God will protect Jordan because of that!
Iraq is toothless and either can't do anything because we are still there or will be so weak if we leave that they still can't muster an army to go against Israel.
Egypt will break it's treaty with Israel to attack her - so says Ezekiel.

Click to expand...

.

djwhalkhul said:

.

Click to expand...

Jordan will more than likely become part of the coalition of armies brought against Israel in the battle with Gog of Magog. According to the prophecy in question, "many peoples with you" who will attack along "the mountains of Israel" implies that other countries will be involved in the Russian (or Turkish), Iranian, Sudanese, Ethiopian and Libyan coalition, and who border on the mountains of Israel.

Because of their involvement against Israel, God will destroy Jordan.

Iraq may be toothless now but Babylon will be rebuilt and become a world wonder.

Ezekiel does not say that Egypt will attack Israel as part of this coalition. In fact, it implies that Egypt and Iraq will not attack Israel at that time

MezzaMorta said:

Discrimination is discrimination… how many tens of thousands of Jews trying to escape Germany in the late 30’s were turned away by America, sent back to Germany and the gas chambers?

The US government and military knew about the concentration camps as early as the middle of the 1940’s, the oppression and persecution of the Jews even before that. They didn’t life a finger the help in till they were forced to by Japan bombing Hawaii, even then during the war there was no attempts made to liberate concentration camps in till the war was basically over, the Soviet Union ended up liberating most of them. In fact the US killed thousands of Jewish concentration camp victims by bombing the factories and fields they were working in… but they couldn’t do a few bombing runs on the trains bring the Jews in or the gas chambers?

They didn’t care about the Jews, they were treated just as badly as the blacks and looked upon as just as inferior as the blacks.


In context of the time and situation in the rest of the world… nope.

Millions of Jews were expelled by Spain in the last 15th century I believe, put on ships and sent towards North Africa. Tens of thousands died. The Ottomans sent their entire western navy to pick up these refugees, sent them accost the Ottoman Empire, gave them land, money, food. They welcomed them with open arms. Gave them political, religious, social and economic rights that the Jews had not experienced since they had their own nation thousands of years previous. And in the Ottoman empire these jews flourished.

500 years later and in a similar situation, the US turned away the Jewish refugees, sending them back to Germany, back to the gas chambers.



They were, your complete misunderstanding of what Dhimmitude as in Islamic law is no doubt. All it is, is that Jews and Christians must pay a Jizzaya (Protection tax). Under Islamic law all males are required to serve in the army, seeing as according ot the Qur’an this is in a Islamic state non-muslims can not be required to serve in an Muslim army. So instead of having to partake in mandatory military service, non-muslims pay the Jizzaya. They can opt to serve in the military just as any Muslim man would in which case they are exempt from the Jizzaya.

The closest thing that Islamic law states as to “oppression” would be that non-Muslims are not allowed to publicly display their religion.

At various times though out history certain leaders have taken this and added on to it, but the fundmental nature of it as to it is in Islamic law is not one of oppression or persecution.



UAE.

Click to expand...

So: let me get this straight. You're making a straight-line comparison between 15th century Ottoman Empire and t20th century US?
Do you know how crazy that is, on how many different levels?
I never denied that the Ottomans had their tolerant periods. But are you really prepared to say that the entirety of Ottoman history has been more tolerant toward Jews than the entirety of American history? Because, America's appalling conduct pre and during WWII notwithstanding, I still find this historical claim very very difficult to credit.
You're idea of "pure Islamic law" which has never been put into practice, kind of reminds me of those theorists who constantly assert that "pure communism" would work. Who cares if it would work if it's always been honored more in the breech?

Re: UAE: are you trying to say that the UAE is fundamentally opposed to Israel or that a tiny string of oil emirates with huge class disparities, an almost 9 to 1 citizen to guest-worker ratio, horrible human rights abuses (using basically enslaved children as cammel-jockeys for one) and an economy almost totally dependent on one export isn't a partial basket-case?

The only (and I do mean only) oil-producing nation I can think of in the region which isn't a basket-case is Oman, and this is mainly because they've been attempting to (A) diversify their economy and (B) become less dependent on guest-workers. Oddly enough, Sultan Qaboos is one of the least-obsessed-with-Israel leaders in the Middle East also.
Granted, Egypt is an Israeli "ally" and they could justly be called a partial basked-case also. But then, I'm not relying on an "Israel good, Israel's enemies bad" dichotomy from biblical prophecy. Just good-old-fashion international relations. That doesn't change the fact that those countries obsessed with the "zionist occupiers" instead of taking care of their own people are universally, um, not taking care of their own people, and not taking care of their economies. As a result, they are suffering the consequences.

MezzaMorta said:

[/font][/color]

Click to expand...

[FONT=&quot]If there is any nation Israel as the most to fear from, it is Iran and her allies. Not only is the Iranian military the most powerful in the region and most likely to pose a threat to Israel, but Iran is also the most vocal in the destruction of Israel.

You are correct about Iran, just add Russia and you have the reason for Israel to fear this group.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]As much zeal as you have for the state of Israel, they have against it, supported by their commitment to rejoin Islamic holy lands and bring about the coming of the 13th imam.

Correction: 12th Imam
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Kind of scary actually that your mentality and the mentality of Iran are pretty much the same, both seeing Israel as a battleground for the soon approaching end of the world……

It is scary as Israel is the battleground for the three monotheistic religions that all have apocalyptic scenarios affiliated with their beliefs.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][/color][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Show me where Ezekiel predicts the modern geo-political landscape and details this events.

Ezekiel chapters 38 and 39 lay it out well. Also read 36 and 37 that speak to the return of Israel to a world power. If 36 and 37 have been realized in our time, so can 38 and 39.
[/FONT]