Who Should Control the city of Jerusalem?

yod · Jun 20, 2007

All we have to see is the persecution of christians in Hamastan going on right now

'Some supposedly christian churches (non-evangelical) have even joined in the persecution of the evangelical christian community. Can anyone imagine a christian or church joining in the persecution other innocent christians who are arab? It always comes from those who support (and repeat) islamic and p.l.o. propoganda.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56231

This should explain quite clearly for an intellectually honest person what Jerusalem would look like under the control of muslims and their ''christian'' allies

icedtea · Jun 20, 2007

Absolutely.

Gwenyfur · Jun 20, 2007

MezzaMorta · Jun 20, 2007

Ill go with the 800 years of precedent concerning Muslim rule of Jerusalem rather than some bias conjecture.

That 800 years brought the most peaceful and tolerant time to the holy city in its history, Mosque, Temple and Church existed on the same streets, all three faiths respected each other and worshiped in the city. The holy sites of all faiths were respected and maintained.

But dont expect these "Jews" here to agree with that. To them anything illistrateing Muslims as anything other than terrorists is Anti-Semitism! They throw the word around so much it loses any meaning.

Gwenyfur · Jun 21, 2007

as if living in dimmhi status was such a peaceful treat...
little better than slavery

MezzaMorta · Jun 21, 2007

Gwenyfur said:
as if living in dimmhi status was such a peaceful treat...
little better than slavery

Please, go learn a little bit about the history of the Ottoman Empire. The people you seem to think you are one of (the Jews) were treated better in the sultanate than anywhere up to the past 100 years.

For someone who claims to be a "jew" you don't seem to know much about Jewish history. Spanish jewery in the Ottoman Empire, taken in after Spain kicked them out and left them at sea is considered the highest point in Jewish society and culture post- David.

yod · Jun 21, 2007

saying it was "better" under the Ottoman Turks than it was in a Europe under Catholic AND Protestant control ain't saying a whole lot...but I am in agreement with you on that, Mezza.

Overall, the jews fared better under the Ottomans than at any other time in the diaspora (dispersion).

I think that would be the first time we agree on anything, Mezza....shall we celebrate?

MezzaMorta · Jun 21, 2007

Jews thrived in the empire, were respected professionals, held some of the highest positions in government and their contribution to the empire is just as great as what they received from it.

It was Saladin and later the Ottomans that allowed Jews to Jerusalem in the first place, after the crusaders killed them all and forced all non-catholics outside the city walls.

motaboy · Jun 22, 2007

The Teutonic knights should

KnightHospitaler · Jun 24, 2007

archangelmichael said:
I withdraw the question.
Michael

The grand master of the Sovereign Military Order of Malta of course? How could there be any doubt? In this way we can assure that nearly everyone is unhappy with the situation and, as such, can preserve the quite lucrative cottage industry which surrounds complaining about who should or should not control the city of Jerusalem. <g>

Alternatively, we could take the Holy Sepulcher Solution to it's logical conclusion. Since everyone fought over the keys to the church, Saladin gave it to the Muslims. Extrapolating from this, the logical agency to control Jerusalem is the most obscure band of Tibetan Buddhist monks we can possibly find.

No, seriously, there is no solving this one. Ever. Until Jesus shows up.

KnightHospitaler · Jun 24, 2007

MezzaMorta said:
Please, go learn a little bit about the history of the Ottoman Empire. The people you seem to think you are one of (the Jews) were treated better in the sultanate than anywhere up to the past 100 years.

For someone who claims to be a "jew" you don't seem to know much about Jewish history. Spanish jewery in the Ottoman Empire, taken in after Spain kicked them out and left them at sea is considered the highest point in Jewish society and culture post- David.

Congratulations: you just took a possibly valid point (re: the Ottoman Empire) and made it ludicrous (re: the last hundred years).
See, there's this little matter of Disraeli, a Jew, becoming Prime Minister of Britain. Not, I might add, within the last hundred years. And there's this little place called Pennsylvania in this little country where you claim to live (or with whose silly Green party you at least claim to associate) called the United States which placed absolutely no restrictions on the Jews whatsoever. In, let me think...the mid seventeenth century perhaps?
I'm sure the Ottomans were very nice to Jews and Christians when revenues were low and gisia was required to balance the budget. But please can we avoid hyperventilating hyperbole about the gentleness of dhimitude? Like Christian treatment of Jews, it varied from place to place, but was inferior to full equality of religion in all of them.
You're a Christian Arab for crying out loud. I can't believe I'm actually havin g to point this out to you.

GratiaCorpusChristi · Jun 25, 2007

KnightHospitaler said:
Congratulations: you just took a possibly valid point (re: the Ottoman Empire) and made it ludicrous (re: the last hundred years).
See, there's this little matter of Disraeli, a Jew, becoming Prime Minister of Britain. Not, I might add, within the last hundred years. And there's this little place called Pennsylvania in this little country where you claim to live (or with whose silly Green party you at least claim to associate) called the United States which placed absolutely no restrictions on the Jews whatsoever. In, let me think...the mid seventeenth century perhaps?
I'm sure the Ottomans were very nice to Jews and Christians when revenues were low and gisia was required to balance the budget. But please can we avoid hyperventilating hyperbole about the gentleness of dhimitude? Like Christian treatment of Jews, it varied from place to place, but was inferior to full equality of religion in all of them.
You're a Christian Arab for crying out loud. I can't believe I'm actually havin g to point this out to you.

Lets not forget the acceptance of Jews in Maryland colony under Calvert, Lord Baltimore, which were so decisive in my home state's economy that there's an entire book on the Jewish community of Baltimore by Isaac Fein.

KnightHospitaler · Jun 25, 2007

GratiaCorpusChristi said:
Lets not forget the acceptance of Jews in Maryland colony under Calvert, Lord Baltimore, which were so decisive in my home state's economy that there's an entire book on the Jewish community of Baltimore by Isaac Fein.

Good point GCC: I picked PA because I'm the most familiar with it's history, but there are other American examples. Rhode Island explicitly extended religious toleration to Christians and Jews when it was founded if I remember correctly. Now that I think about it, even the Confederate States of America had a Jewish secretary of state as of 1861 or 2. Which, again, was more than a hundred years ago I believe? And I don't think the Jews in the US had to pay any silly worship tax either.

ContentInHim · Jun 25, 2007

GratiaCorpusChristi said:
Lets not forget the acceptance of Jews in Maryland colony under Calvert, Lord Baltimore, which were so decisive in my home state's economy that there's an entire book on the Jewish community of Baltimore by Isaac Fein.

Wow, I didn't know that! (I grew up in Wilmington so I know Baltimore a little )

MezzaMorta · Jun 25, 2007

KnightHospitaler said:
Congratulations: you just took a possibly valid point (re: the Ottoman Empire) and made it ludicrous (re: the last hundred years).
See, there's this little matter of Disraeli, a Jew, becoming Prime Minister of Britain. Not, I might add, within the last hundred years. And there's this little place called Pennsylvania in this little country where you claim to live (or with whose silly Green party you at least claim to associate) called the United States which placed absolutely no restrictions on the Jews whatsoever. In, let me think...the mid seventeenth century perhaps?
I'm sure the Ottomans were very nice to Jews and Christians when revenues were low and gisia was required to balance the budget. But please can we avoid hyperventilating hyperbole about the gentleness of dhimitude? Like Christian treatment of Jews, it varied from place to place, but was inferior to full equality of religion in all of them.
You're a Christian Arab for crying out loud. I can't believe I'm actually havin g to point this out to you.

100 years is most likely a stretch, no where in the western world have Jews been embraced by society, truly free to openly practice their religion with out discrimination up to the last 100 years.

Lets not forget that it was only 60 years ago that White Europeans amassed to round up and kill 6 million Jews. Nothing like that has ever occurred in the ME.

Worst Arabs have ever done is told them to pack up their stuff and move to Israel after Israel kicked out millions of Arabs from Palestine.

KnightHospitaler · Jun 25, 2007

MezzaMorta said:
100 years is most likely a stretch, no where in the western world have Jews been embraced by society, truly free to openly practice their religion with out discrimination up to the last 100 years.

Lets not forget that it was only 60 years ago that White Europeans amassed to round up and kill 6 million Jews. Nothing like that has ever occurred in the ME.

Worst Arabs have ever done is told them to pack up their stuff and move to Israel after Israel kicked out millions of Arabs from Palestine.

Again, you're ignoring the entire history of the United States in this claim. I'll go with most of the Western world, but still not all.
And I think a case can be made on behalf ofBritain. I'm not positive however so I won't push that one.
As to Muslim states and the Jews: weren't the Al-Moravids pretty nasty to their Dhimmis?

yod · Jun 27, 2007

MezzaMorta said:
Lets not forget that it was only 60 years ago that White Europeans amassed to round up and kill 6 million Jews. Nothing like that has ever occurred in the ME.

What about today?

and...have you ever read the book of Esther?

MezzaMorta · Jun 27, 2007

Again, you're ignoring the entire history of the United States in this claim.

Clearly you are, just because a few Jews worked in the government doesn’t mean that the US was a friendly place for Jews. That didn’t occur in till after WW2…. Go look up the Jim Crow laws. Yes we all know that they oppressed the blacks well into the 1970’s…. but little known is that many of the Jim Crow laws were applied to Jews as well.

You should watch the movie Focus with William H. Macy. It is about a man who in the 1930’s gets a pair of glasses. But the thing is, these glasses make him look Jewish. He loses his job, is outcast by his community…. It is written off a book that was a true story.

Anti-Jewish sentiment was common and widespread right up to the end of WW2. It was only because of the holocaust that it has lost its mass appeal.

I know Americans like to think they are the pinnacle of civil rights and tolerance, but Jews were subject to just as much discrimination in the US as they were accost Europe.

As to Muslim states and the Jews: weren't the Al-Moravids pretty nasty to their Dhimmis?

The status of “Dhimmis” has only been used twice in history, once in the time of Muhammad, and again in 1383 in a Turkish town of Jecteta.

ContentInHim · Jun 27, 2007

Where official US policy has favored and supported Israel, the US has been blessed. When it hasn't, the US has been cursed. Read Eye for Eye by Bill Koenig. It was on the NYT best seller list for a number of years. It can be mind numbing because it's 300-400 pages of correlations of US actions vis a vis Israel and God's blessings or curses on the US.

MezzaMorta · Jun 27, 2007

ContentInHim said:
Where official US policy has favored and supported Israel, the US has been blessed. When it hasn't, the US has been cursed. Read Eye for Eye by Bill Koenig. It was on the NYT best seller list for a number of years. It can be mind numbing because it's 300-400 pages of correlations of US actions vis a vis Israel and God's blessings or curses on the US.

Spend enough time and selectively take enough information and you could likely claim the same between the US and any other nation.

What about all the nations that have supported Israel and have been anything but blessed? What about the nations that have opposed Israel and are anything but cursed?

It is absolutely scary, and horrifying that there are people in this nation that actually believe the fate of this nation and its people is dependent on our support for Israel. If that is the most important factor, how come we dont send the entire US army to invade all of Israels neghbiours, give them all the land after we commit genocide on the Arab people, then have the US become a protectorate of Israel? Seems only logical if what you say is true.

Who Should Control the city of Jerusalem?

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