Who really want to be a Christian?

[Akita Suggagaki]

Matthew 16:24-26​

24 Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me".

I don't know about the rest of you but I don't want any crosses. In fact. I usually pray that they be lightened or removed.
Can I call myself Christian?

 

[friend of]

That's natural. But even if we don't want any crosses, but if we are in the faith, the Lord will give us one. Or two or three.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Matthew 16:24-26​

24 Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me".

I don't know about the rest of you but I don't want any crosses. In fact. I usually pray that they be lightened or removed.
Can I call myself Christian?

... you can call yourself anything you want. But a rose by any other name is still prickly.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Matthew 16:24-26​

24 Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me".

I don't know about the rest of you but I don't want any crosses. In fact. I usually pray that they be lightened or removed.
Can I call myself Christian?

It's not possible to follow Christ (be a Christian) without carrying your cross. The phrase means to basically stop living for yourself and live for God. Check out 2 Corinthians 5:15-17

If it's fear, just ask God to help. God puts things on us to show us we are not adequate in ourselves and we need to trust in Him at all times, good and bad

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Matthew 16:24-26​

24 Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me".

I don't know about the rest of you but I don't want any crosses. In fact. I usually pray that they be lightened or removed.
Can I call myself Christian?

I do not want to dissuade you from anything... but He did say do it. Whether you are a Christian or not is now up to you.
Will you follow Him or not? IMHO, my time as an unbeliever was much more difficult, and that cross was much heavier than the Jesus cross. You will carry a cross either way. Either the horrible cross of the world or the cross of Christ. Choose the Jesus cross.
You are certainly well able to do it.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

You will carry a cross either way.

I think you are right. The question is our attitude.

It relates a bit to another item: repentance.

Doing penance is less about self inflicted punishment and more about changing our attitudes, making sacrifices out of love, "dying to self".

Again, who really wants to do that? It is countercultural, uncomfortable and inconvenient.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I think you are right. The question is our attitude.

It relates a bit to another item: repentance.

Doing penance is less about self inflicted punishment and more about changing our attitudes, making sacrifices out of love, "dying to self".

Again, who really wants to do that? It is countercultural, uncomfortable and inconvenient.

It also relates to the fact that none of us today can "be" a Christian in the same way that the earliest disciples were Christians. What I mean by this and am attempting to imply here is that we have 2,000 years of Lessing's Ditch to hurdle over in order to be at a place where we can even begin to perceive (and/or feel) that Christianity is true or true enough for us to lay our entire lives on the line for it.

I don't think it's so much that it's countercultural. It was countercultural during the 1st century. What keeps many of us from fully engaging the Cross is our various levels of modern skepticism about its claimed reality.

Historically and culturally speaking from within the context of our modern world, it's no surprise there's a growing sense of extreme hesitancy, even despondency, toward being told we need to "lay our lives down and take up our crosses"----so we can be "real" Christians.

 

[public hermit]

Matthew 16:24-26​

24 Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me".

I don't know about the rest of you but I don't want any crosses. In fact. I usually pray that they be lightened or removed.
Can I call myself Christian?

I agree. I think self-denial and cross-bearing go against our natural tendencies which are often motivated by self-interest. The problem being that self-interest and our attachments are what often keep us from loving God and others. If that's the case, self-denial and cross-bearing are things we have to intentionally work at. I would say most of those who have made the ultimate sacrifice, i.e., their life, had an intentional (daily) practice of denying themselves.

I would also say that not all self-denial is cross-bearing, but all cross-bearing entails self-denial. Whereas self-denial can be a matter of self-interest, which is not always a bad thing, cross-bearing is specifically those acts of denying ourselves for the sake of others, as we see with Jesus' death on the cross.

ETA: Can you call yourself a Christian? I don't know. I think if we're working at self-denial and cross-bearing, being intentional because we are consciously trying to follow Jesus, then we are followers of Christ. I think that's the best we can do. This idea that we become this static entity that "is a Christian" can be unhelpful, I think, if we forget that it is a process. We are being transformed and that takes grace and can take time. I think it all comes down to the trajectory of the heart's desire.

 

[Hvizsgyak]

Matthew 16:24-26​

24 Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me".

I don't know about the rest of you but I don't want any crosses. In fact. I usually pray that they be lightened or removed.
Can I call myself Christian?

Before I truly understood what Jesus meant by "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me", I could never figure out why I was experiencing so many troubling problems in my life. I believed that by putting my faith in Jesus alot of my troubles would go away or at least, I wouldn't experience as many problems. Now understanding that scripture better, I realized those troubling problems were my crosses to bear. And believe it or not in knowing this, I am so much more happier. There is a reason for my pain.

 

[timothyu]

I don't know about the rest of you but I don't want any crosses.

The whole take up your cross thing makes no sense, especially writing that Jesus said it, considering it wasn't even a thing yet.

 

[Fireinfolding]

He also said,

Mat 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

What keeps many of us from fully engaging the Cross is our various levels of modern skepticism about its claimed reality.

Yes, I think I have bene operating at two levels most of my life.

Level I: I accept the clams of faith and agree to "convert".

Level II: I begin to see that it can hurt and then begin to ask if it is really worth it.

Level I is hardly faith at all, just going along with the pious thoughts and maybe good intentions. It is very superficial like icing on the cake of a comfortable life and a happy song to sing on Sunday morning.

Level II involves testing and deepening. It can be dark and painful. And shocking when it comes to realizing how shallow Level I really is.

ETA: Can you call yourself a Christian? I don't know. I think if we're working at self-denial and cross-bearing, being intentional because we are consciously trying to follow Jesus, then we are followers of Christ. I think that's the best we can do. This idea that we become this static entity that "is a Christian" can be unhelpful, I think, if we forget that it is a process. We are being transformed and that takes grace and can take time. I think it all comes down to the trajectory of the heart's desire.

I sure hope so and think you are right. Perhaps I have actually grown in my faith now that I am seeing, recognizing and realizing what a cross can actually mean. And I am in the process of negotiating it, wrapping my head around it, tasting it.

There is a prayer attributed to St Ignatius of Loyola:

"Take, Lord, receive all my liberty,
my memory, my understanding, my whole will,
all that I have and all that I possess.

You gave it all to me, Lord;
I give it all back to you.
Do with it as you will, according to your good pleasure.
Give me your love and your grace; for with this I have all that I need."

That is certainly not my prayer yet. I want my memory, understanding and will. My surrender is very conditional. And then so is the cross I am willing to carry. Like let me pick it.

I have been working on equanimity. I have been practicing doing things for other I would not choose to do. it is sacrifice. If I can do that in daily things, die to self with joy in practical things, then perhaps I can grow to endure bigger crosses.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Yes, I think I have bene operating at two levels most of my life.

Level I: I accept the clams of faith and agree to "convert".

Level II: I begin to see that it can hurt and then begin to ask if it is really worth it.

Level I is hardly faith at all, just going along with the pious thoughts and maybe good intentions. It is very superficial like icing on the cake of a comfortable life and a happy song to sing on Sunday morning.

Level II involves testing and deepening. It can be dark and painful. And shocking when it comes to realizing how shallow Level I really is.

For me, the challenge has always been in coming to grips existentially with "knowing" that claims to faith are even true in the first place. What I'm getting at isn't about Axiological or Spiritual failure. It's about Epistemic limitations, especially those inserted into the processes of knowing that come from a 2,000 year distance from the Christ events themselves.

I have never been one for 'easy belief' which makes it that much harder to appropriate certain principles that Jesus may have taught.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

For me, the challenge has always been in coming to grips existentially with "knowing" that claims to faith are even true in the first place. What I'm getting at isn't about Axiological or Spiritual failure. It's about Epistemic limitations, especially those inserted into the processes of knowing that come from a 2,000 year distance from the Christ events themselves.

I have never been one for 'easy belief' which makes it that much harder to appropriate certain principles that Jesus may have taught.

Are you referring to the imagery of "Father", "Heaven", "angels", "Hell" and all that?

or also the concept of something called "eternal life"?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Are you referring to the imagery of "Father", "Heaven", "angels", "Hell" and all that?

or also the concept of something called "eternal life"?

See, this is the existential rub for me. When I start talking about this stuff, so many don't follow what or why I'm saying what I'm saying.

Here's what I'm trying to say: It's hard to actually be motivated and to continue to be indefinitely motivated to "do all that Christ asked us to do" when we don't know for sure what the level of actual reliability of the literary and/or oral traditions is. Did Jesus exist? Did Jesus actually rise again historically from the dead? Did He actually say all that is attributed to Him as having said? Etc. Etc. Etc.

If we live in an age where everything biblical and theological is doubted by any one of us to varying to degrees, then while we can read a text that tells us to "take up our Crosses," we may have trouble following through because we lack the situation of life by which to be fully convinced.

In other words, I'm attempting to empathize here with folks who feel that it is difficult to follow through as a Christian if and when we may still have so many things in our thinking that remain unresolved where the truth of the Christian faith is concerned. And I'm implying that it is probably more that we doubt than that we are morally weak when we fail to "take up our crosses."

 

[public hermit]

I have been working on equanimity. I have been practicing doing things for other I would not choose to do. it is sacrifice. If I can do that in daily things, die to self with joy in practical things, then perhaps I can grow to endure bigger crosses.

I tend to think of it in these terms, too. The way of Christ is something we practice and work at. Maybe some folks have a dramatic change in a moment so that everything that follows is radically different. If so, I think it can also be a lifetime's work. Self-interest is inherent to us, and inordinate self-interest is not far behind. It's not easy to separate the two. I assume it's impossible to seperate them without grace, and improbable without personal effort.

 

[Lukaris]

I believe much of bearing our cross is keeping the Lord’s commandments and the account of the rich young man is instructive. Especially in Matthew 19:16-30 it is best illustrated ( I think). Our life circumstances vary of course and though as an American, I only do warehouse work for a living, my life is probably much easier than that of an educated, professional Christian person in Pakistan ( for ex.).

Mob attack in Pakistan.

Our family in Pakistan is asking for urgent prayer after a mob of Muslim extremists attacked a Christian community and burned down several churches and homes. More than 15 churches were attacked—and even a cemetery was destroyed. Christians also report that Bibles were burned during the...

www.christianforums.com

How we cope in our circumstances is what I believe is key. If we are better off, we should pray and give more for others. I do not believe we should seek persecution but stick to the Lord’s commandments ( John 14:15-18, 1 Corinthians 13:1-13).

Believe me, I have plenty of issues so I don’t want to present myself as some pious fraud ( Luke 18:9-14).

 

[Aaron112]

Again, who really wants to do that? It is countercultural, uncomfortable and inconvenient.

I do. Did. Have. And never looked back, never stopped.
It is required for life.
Remember taking a stand for truth, honesty, for what is right and good and Godly,
is
always counter-cultural, un-comfortable ("woe to you who are comfortable now, you will suffer later" paraphrased Jesus' Words) , and 'inconvenient' (losing everything to follow Jesus)....

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

See, this is the existential rub for me. When I start talking about this stuff, so many don't follow what or why I'm saying what I'm saying.

Here's what I'm trying to say: It's hard to actually be motivated and to continue to be indefinitely motivated to "do all that Christ asked us to do" when we don't know for sure what the level of actual reliability of the literary and/or oral traditions is. Did Jesus exist? Did Jesus actually rise again historically from the dead? Did He actually say all that is attributed to Him as having said? Etc. Etc. Etc.

If we live in an age where everything biblical and theological is doubted by any one of us to varying to degrees, then while we can read a text that tells us to "take up our Crosses," we may have trouble following through because we lack the situation of life by which to be fully convinced.

In other words, I'm attempting to empathize here with folks who feel that it is difficult to follow through as a Christian if and when we may still have so many things in our thinking that remain unresolved where the truth of the Christian faith is concerned. And I'm implying that it is probably more that we doubt than that we are morally weak when we fail to "take up our crosses."

OK, yes, there are a lot of points that we can question. And I think that is ok with God. Even questioning if God exists and what that even means. For me there are a lot of points I put on the back burner. . . like "second comin", what heaven is like, and a lot of other theological debatable issues. I tend to be more pragmatic. How and what in "faith" helps me to live a better and happier life?

When it comes to Jesus I think he certainly existed. Who he is and the meaning of his death have become key issues in Christianity. But I focus more on what he is quoted as saying and teaching. And setting aside whether he actually said these things. Yes, I know the Gospels were written decades after his death by people who had their own theological and political points to make. that doesn't matter much to me. The Gospels exist. What meaning do they have for my life here and now?

I think I am struggling with reality itself. Reality involves change. Reality involves growth. And I think a primary task for all of us is to grown beyond our ego. That is painful for the ego. That is part of our cross. We identify so much with our ego we think it is all we are and can be. I think the things Jesus said about dying to self and taking up a cross are built in aspects of reality that we simply must accept. Jesus provides a loving personal context for it all as well as help. But that is a faith statement. I, my ego, is resisting reality.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I do. Did. Have. And never looked back, never stopped.
It is required for life.
Remember taking a stand for truth, honesty, for what is right and good and Godly,
is
always counter-cultural, un-comfortable ("woe to you who are comfortable now, you will suffer later" paraphrased Jesus' Words) , and 'inconvenient' (losing everything to follow Jesus)....

In my brighter moments I do also. I would like to sustain them and deepen them.