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Who really cares what the ECF's had to say?

simonthezealot

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Their theology was wrong in many areas, there were many different interpretations of the same scriptures and in many cases they had next to NO access to bounce their ideas off of other great theological minds...So what gives? why the heavy leanings for understanding? Essentially the scriptures they used and the ones we use have remained unchanged, less some poor translations. It does not seem plausible to hang ones salvation on an early 3rds or 4th century interpretation of the same scripture we have NOW.
 

Standing Up

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Why shouldn't we read them with the same suspect that we would "The Shack" or any other Christian writing?

We do. It's very clear that no group "sits on" one ECF. They pick and choose different ECFs. They accept one thing an ECF said, while rejecting another thing the same ECF said.

ECFs shouldn't really be used for doctrinal purposes, but for confirmation of things skewing away from scripture. An easy example is Arius vs Athanasius (trinity). A harder one is Polycarp vs Anicetus (easter).
 
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GreekOrthodox

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Individually,they were not always correct but when taken as a whole they provide the apostolic faith.

"As the prophets beheld, as the Apostles have taught, as the Church has received, as the Teachers have dogmatised, as the Universe has agreed, as Grace has shown forth, as Truth has revealed, as falsehood has been dissolved, as Wisdom has presented, as Christ awarded, thus we declare; thus we assert, thus we preach Christ our true God, and honour His Saints in words, in writings, in thoughts, in sacrifices, in Churches, in Holy Icons; on the one hand worshiping and reverencing Christ as God and Lord; and on the other hand honouring as true servants of the same Lord of all and accordingly offering them veneration.

"This is the Faith of the Apostles, this is the Faith of the Fathers, this is the Faith of the Orthodox, this is the Faith which has established the Universe!"

from the Synodikon of Sunday of Orthodoxy
(1st Sunday of Great Lent)
 
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Gnarwhal

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GreekOrthodox said:
Individually,they were not always correct but when taken as a whole they provide the apostolic faith.

I agree, individually they had faults but when they met in the ecumenical councils I think the Holy Spirit guided them closer to perfection.

Ultimately I don't think of these men any different than the apostles in the new testament. They're imbued with the same Holy Spirit and followed in the apostles foot steps. They applied themselves in the same ways and devoted themselves in some ways that the laity didn't. First among equals.
 
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simonthezealot

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Individually,they were not always correct but when taken as a whole they provide the apostolic faith.
Correction: Scripture taken as a whole provides the apostolic faith.
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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Correction: Scripture taken as a whole provides the apostolic faith.

No it doesn't. Not everything that Jesus and the first Christians believed and did is recorded in Scripture. The communities that produced the texts of the New Testament are in a far better position to interpret those texts not simply because they lived in that context (a common but mediocre claim), but because the Scriptures were written for specific communities to be performed in those communities.

Forget the Pauline epistles for a minute. Check out the gospels. The gospels are performance pieces, meant to be spoken aloud. Just go on youtube and look up Marks's Gospel on Stage. It takes about an hour and a half to perform the whole thing (similar to ancient plays) and you get a lot more of the dynamism and humor and tragedy in the text through seeing it performed.

The churches for whom it was written saw it performed, and those performances continued down through generations. Those performances were interpretive, through gesture, intonation, tension, and pathos, in a way our study of Scripture centuries later cannot be.

The continuity of the gospel-writing communities and the gospel-performing communities and the gospel-reading communities of early Christianity doesn't mean that meanings couldn't change and shift over time. However, it does mean that the burden of proof is on us when we interpret Scripture and the faith against the general thrust of the earliest fathers, especially those who were trained by the apostles and those writings that come from apostolic communities: Clement, the Didache, Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, Hippolytus.

I'm not saying that we can't hold views on Scripture that contradict the church fathers, even the earliest church fathers. What I am saying is that if we want to hold an interpretation of Scripture or the faith that differs from the earliest fathers, we need to not only mount an exegetical case, but we need to mount a historical case in order to demonstrate where exactly their line of continuity broke off.

Allow me to repeat that: If we want to hold an interpretation of Scripture or the faith that differs from the earliest fathers (and we may), we need not only to try and show why our interpretation is legitimate on biblical grounds, but also why theirs is not on historical grounds.

I think Lutherans and Anglicans have done a pretty good job of doing exactly this sort of research. I think Protestants, on the other hand, have not. They have either retreated into the slogan sola scriptura as a cover for a reading of Scriptural that regards only the prior historical context of the text, and not its reception history, or have just thrown out Constantine as a catch-all excuse (despite the fact that the doctrines that Protestants find so objectionable- the monarchical episcopacy and the regenerative objectivity of the sacraments- were both fully formed a hundred years before Constantine's conversion).

That's my case, and it's how we ought to do counter-traditional theology.
 
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Anoetos

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The problem, and Standing Up has touched on this, is that the ECFs are not nearly monolithic enough to provide the kind of consistency necessary for them to really "provide the orthodox faith" in any meaningful sense.

Examples abound of these men holding unorthodox or even heterodox views of things, these views are usually rejected by the church eventually, but the fact remains that they held them. In what sense can they be said to be provisional of orthodoxy?

Gratia's point is well taken, but it seems to assume their authority; such a view seems to suggest that their views are specially worthy of such analysis; that they're a casus specialis. On the other hand, if all he's saying is that we should be good Bereans and measure them against the Word of God, then, I am in agreement; but I think this is true of every opinion, whose ever it may be.

My own view is that their opinions are important historically and that we do owe them the respect of learning what they thought. But again, as often as not, if a person wants to, they can find whatever they want in one or another of them. So, they're not useful for "proving" anything.
 
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Lion King

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I'm not saying that we can't hold views on Scripture that contradict the church fathers, even the earliest church fathers. What I am saying is that if we want to hold an interpretation of Scripture or the faith that differs from the earliest fathers, we need to not only mount an exegetical case, but we need to mount a historical case in order to demonstrate where exactly their line of continuity broke off.

Allow me to repeat that: If we want to hold an interpretation of Scripture or the faith that differs from the earliest fathers (and we may), we need to only to try and show why our interpretation is legitimate on biblical grounds, but also why theirs is not on historical grounds.

That's my case, and it's how we ought to do counter-traditional theology.

So, in other words, we should only interpret the Scriptures according to how "certain" people interpreted them centuries ago, and not in accordance with the Holy-Spirit?

No, thank you.

For the record, I hold the doctrines of the ECF, with the same regards, as I do the teachings of Mr Harold Camping.
 
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Anoetos

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Gratia,

I really do get what you're saying but I have to respectfully disagree. It is entirely sufficient to read Scripture within its own context. This is, after all, the regula fidei.

Whether it is entirely possible to do so, or the degree to which we are able to, is another question. We import our own perspectives into it every time we read it. This seems inevitable.

I just fail to see why the imported perspectives of a Tertullian or an Origen are any more valuable than yours or mine. Is it just that they lived in a time period closer to the events described? Is it cultural? I have a hard time thinking of late republican Roman imperial Mediterranean culture as being all that much closer to that of Moses or even Paul, an Asian Jew, culturally light years, as he himself indicates.

It is sufficient to read scripture in its own context, immediate and overarching. Heilsgeschicht is as Heilsgeschicht does.

We are enriched by an awareness of church history, but Christ meets us in Word and Sacrament, and He meets the most ignorant there as well as the best informed. The church is where He is, I am sure you'd agree.

All this early church fathering just smacks of church-elitism to me.
 
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Gnarwhal

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Lion King said:
For the record, I hold the doctrines of the ECF, with the same regards, as I do the teachings of Mr Harold Camping.

I think Camping shared your sentiments, and well... Look at him now.
 
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simonthezealot

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No it doesn't. Not everything the Jesus and the first Christians believed and did is recorded in Scripture. The communities that produced the texts of the New Testaments are in a far better position to interpret those texts not simply because they lived in that contexts (a common but mediocre claim), but because the Scriptures were written for specific communities to be performed in those communities.
So would you claim that for example the people in Rome at the the time of the Letter to the Roman's are more qualified to interpret the book of Hebrews or Ephesus or Colossians or anything other than what was written to them better than nowadays?
 
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Lion King

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I think Camping shared your sentiments, and well... Look at him now.

'Tis such a shame, indeed. I hope and pray to God that my soul will not ever deviate from His Word, in favour of man-made creeds.:prayer:
 
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Gnarwhal

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simonthezealot said:
SNIDE. Sure doesn't seem like something that should be emanating from a mod.

You think so? You think I'm being nasty? Camping said so himself that the church age was over back when he was claiming judgment day was on May 21st and his subsequent predictions. He had no regard whatsoever for the historic Christian faith and look what kind of theology came from it.

Isolation is a breeding ground for unorthodox theology, when someone believes they have a unique direct line by which esoteric knowledge is delivered and no communal accountability by which to verify it.

Lion King said:
'Tis such a shame, indeed. I hope and pray to God that my soul will not ever deviate from His Word, in favour of man-made creeds.:prayer:

That's where he started. ;)
 
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pathfinder777

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Their theology was wrong in many areas, there were many different interpretations of the same scriptures and in many cases they had next to NO access to bounce their ideas off of other great theological minds...So what gives? why the heavy leanings for understanding? Essentially the scriptures they used and the ones we use have remained unchanged, less some poor translations. It does not seem plausible to hang ones salvation on an early 3rds or 4th century interpretation of the same scripture we have NOW.

For one thing those ECF eventually got together and decided what you and I regard as Scripture and orthodoxy.

They were willing to die for this. Many did.

They were willing to be exiled. Many did.

God used the church (however contradictory or unorthodox some of their views were) to give us his written word.

They provide the only proper context to understand the Scriptures and know orthodox from unorthodox interpretations and selection of scripture.

Many heretics during the first few centuries of Christianity did exactly what you are inquiring about, they divorced the scriptures from the Church's understanding of them. See Irenaeus. He gives examples of what can be done with scripture when divorced from the chuch.

In Christ
 
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Incariol

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simonthezealot said:
Their theology was wrong in many areas, there were many different interpretations of the same scriptures and in many cases they had next to NO access to bounce their ideas off of other great theological minds...So what gives? why the heavy leanings for understanding? Essentially the scriptures they used and the ones we use have remained unchanged, less some poor translations. It does not seem plausible to hang ones salvation on an early 3rds or 4th century interpretation of the same scripture we have NOW.

I care. And I don't think they were wrong.
 
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