Who is THE RESTRAINER

[Rachel20]

I don't need to explain, it clearly says the Rebellion/apostasia and revealing of the AC happens first.

No, you sure don't need to explain anything.

 

[claninja]

In 2 Thessalonians, and what is the nature of the son of perdition who is being withheld? Is it a flesh and blood man - this Man of Sin?

Scripture does not give us the details as to what or who the restrainer was. All we know, is that is existed in the 1st century, as it was presently restraining the "man of sin" in the first century:

2 thessalonians 2:6-7 And you know what is restraining (present tense verb) him now so that he may be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains (present tense verb) it will do so until he is out of the way.

 

[Berean Tim]

No, you sure don't need to explain anything.

LOL I thought you would respond to the rest. Again, stay away from those who doubt God's word.
"Did God say ?"

 

[Rachel20]

LOL I thought you would respond to the rest. Again, stay away from those who doubt God's word.
"Did God say ?"

Since when did questioning become "doubting" ? You might want to look up what was noble about the Bereans since you're using their name.

 

[iamlamad]

Uh, “Apostasia” is where you get the word “apostasy” from.

It is also where several of the first translations into English got the word departing.

Strongs for Apo: (first part of the compound word, apostasia)
"of separation
...oflocal separation,

after verbs of motion from a place i.e. of departing, of fleeing,...

of separation of a part from the whole
...where of a whole some part is taken

of any kind of separation of one thing from another by which the union or fellowship of the two is destroyed

of a state of separation, that is of distance
...physical, of distance of place

...

Note: The Day of the Lord is period of time that lasts 3 and a half years. It starts with the breaking of the 6th seal. It continues on with the subsequent trumpet and bowl judgments, the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ destroying the nations, and it ends with this Earth being purified by fire.

Many people believe the Day of the Lord will include the entire millennial reign of Christ. It is HIS day.

Side Note:
You also would have to suggest that folks who only had the KJB for hundreds of years and who preached out of it before the Modern Translations showed up and before Textual Criticism showed up could not trust what their Bible said plainly.

It is generally believed that the original texts were inspired by God. Very few today believe that the KJV was inspired by God. It is a translation. Very few today believe the Greek text (The Received Text from which the translators made the KJV) was inspired by God. It too was a copy of other texts. We have no originals.

This is what we have to work with. It is enough, or God would have given us more. There are disagreements among the Greek texts we have. Therefore, it is up to each individual person studying the word of God to decide. For example, in 2 Thes. 2, some Greek texts how "the Day of the Lord while others show "the Day of Christ." Since in Paul's first letter he used "the Day of the Lord," I personally choose that translation.

However, in ANY and EVERY translation, there are truths that cannot be set aside:
* the man of sin cannot be revealed until the restrainer is "taken out of the way."
* Paul wrote "and now you know what is restraining" showing us he expected his readers to know who or what is the restraining force that will be "taken out of the way."
*the man of sin "is revealed" in 3b, showing us that in Paul's argument, the restrainer must have been taken out of the way in 3a. There is no way around this.

Therefore it is up to each reader to choose what in his or her mind best fits the restrainer "taken out of the way:" a significant falling away (from what is not given) or a significant departing. Since the very theme of the passage is the departing of the church as in the gathering or rapture, it just makes sense that in Paul's mind the significant departing is the church being taken out of the way. It also makes sense that it is GOD the Holy Spirit that is the restraining force, working through the church to accomplish His purposes.

 

[iamlamad]

Scripture does not give us the details as to what or who the restrainer was. All we know, is that is existed in the 1st century, as it was presently restraining the "man of sin" in the first century:

2 thessalonians 2:6-7 And you know what is restraining (present tense verb) him now so that he may be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains (present tense verb) it will do so until he is out of the way.

Good point. We must take the verb tenses into account.

Of course we know that a "man" could not live from Paul's day to today. But a spirit behind the coming man of sin could certainly live from then to now. The "man of sin" will certainly be a man. But there will be a spirit behind that man.

Most people read right over Paul's statement: "and now you know what is restraining..." as if he did not write it. I think Paul TOLD us and that is why he wrote "and now you know..."

 

[iamlamad]

The letter does not reveal who the Restrainer is. Paul states very clearly "now you know what is restraining"

Lets take "imminency" for a minute John 21: 18Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were young, you used to dress yourself and walk wherever you wanted, but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will dress you and carry you where you do not want to go.” 19(This he said to show by what kind of death he was to glorify God.) And after saying this he said to him, “Follow me

Peter knew He would grow old and be martyr. Did Peter teach"imminency" of Jesus's coming ?

I don't know who Ehrman is, but if He casting doubt on the Word of God I don't think he's a reliable source.

I don't need to explain, it clearly says the Rebellion/apostasia and revealing of the AC happens first.
Every reference of apostasia in the Bible is a rebellion from God. All of them !

You need to explain why you reject this.

See below for a reference: Strong's # 646
ἀποστασία, ἀποστασιας, ἡ (ἀφισταμαι), a falling away, defection, apostasy; in the Bible namely, from the true religion: Acts 21:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:3; ((Joshua 22:22; 2 Chronicles 29:19; 2 Chronicles 33:19); Jeremiah 2:19; Jeremiah 3629) 32 Complutensian; 1 Macc. 2:15). The earlier Greeks say ἀπόστασις; see Lob. ad Phryn., p. 528; (Winer's Grammar, 24).

Please stay away from folks who doubt the Word of God

I don't need to explain, it clearly says the Rebellion/apostasia and revealing of the AC happens first.
Every reference of apostasia in the Bible is a rebellion from God. All of them !

These statements are really not truth. First, Paul wrote only ONE THING that would be "first."
It is the apostasia that must come "first" and then, after the restrainer is taken out of the way, the man of sin will be revealed. Did you not see the parallels?
Verse3: apostasia - man of sin is revealed
Verse 6: restrainer restraining (until taken out of the way) - man of sin revealed
Verses 7-8: Restrainer restraining (until taken out of the way) - man of sin revealed

Second, this is a reference of apostasia that does not mean a falling away from God. Please note, in Strong's definition, he never says what is being separate from what. The KJV has it as a falling away, but does not include "from what." That information is simply not included in the word, apostasia. I think "departing" is a better translation. How can a "falling away" be compared to "taken out of the way?"

What comes first is the apostasia or departing (from what is not given) and then the man of sin is revealed. NOT written word for word, but understood, then, after these two events, people watching will know the Day of the Lord has started and they are now IN IT.

Remember, the first readers had begun to believe THEY were in the Day of the Lord due to some prophecy or fake letter. Paul straightens their thinking, telling them how people can know for SURE that the Day has come.

This all fits perfectly with John in Revelation: the DAY begins at the 6th seal, and the man of sin is revealed in chapter 11. So when people SEE the man of sin revealed (the man of sin entering the temple and declaring he is God) they can know for sure that THE DAY has started. Revelation was written years after Paul wrote. Now we could add to Paul's argument. When people see the trumpet judgments come, they too will know that THE DAY has started.

 

[iamlamad]

I've only recently started looking at this. I think what stands out to me is the letter specifies "now you know what is restraining" - the letter itself must reveal the restrainer. Paul believed in imminency (1 Thessalonians 5:2) yet gives a list of things that must happen first in 2 Thess 2. Ehrman sees this as a contradiction and rejects Paul even wrote the 2nd letter because of it. But logically, "imminency" can apply to the first thing in the list - the "falling away" - and that would be what overtakes the children of darkness but not the children of light. So now, you need to explain how an apostasia (by your definition) overtakes the children of darkness, who are already lost. And how it doesn't overtake the children of light per Paul (who's apostasia then?)

the letter itself must reveal the restrainer. Agreed.

 

[iamlamad]

Revelation 79After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

The Great Multitude is standing before the throne, this is after the 6th Seal before the 7th.

The Wrath "has come" Revelation 6:16&17, that would be before the Trumpets.

I just take it as it reads

I agree. The great multitude (the just raptured church) are caught up just before the 6th seal that starts the wrath. The first two prewrathers - Rosenthal and Van Kampen - taught that the wrath started with the first trumpet and the rapture then came just before the first trumpet. It is about the only thing they were close on.

The truth is, the 70th week (all wrath) starts with the 7th seal, and God will make SURE two events happen first, before that 7th seal is opened: the sealing of the 144,000 and then the church "taken out of the way." Good post.

 

[iamlamad]

Not exactly. The Lamb and the 144k gather the final harvest during the Trumpets and Thunders. The 7th Trumpet is after the 7 Thunders. It is an 8 day event between Sunday to Sunday. Just like Palm Sunday to Resurrection Sunday. The 7th Trumpet sounds for the whole 8 days. It is the time of celebration after the harvest is collected. It happens on earth just like the 3.5 years the first time. The first time there were 12 disciples and it was in Palestine. This time there will be 144k disciples throughout the whole world. 12 times 12,000 from out of the whole world.

...

The 144k are sealed on earth.

The church is sealed in the temple of God, Paradise. The church will forever be in Paradise, until it comes down as the New Jerusalem in the NHNE. The church is the bride of Christ, but Christ has a day job, in keeping with the married family symbolism, where the wife takes care of the home, and the husband has a day job. Not very PC, but work is overrated and overwhelming these days, anyways.

The 7th Trumpet sounds for the whole 8 days.
I really want to see the chest and lungs of someone who can sound a trumpet for 8 days!
(This means I doubt you here.)

 

[jgr]

It is also where several of the first translations into English got the word departing.

The early translations using "departing" were written by Reformers, who were in epic spiritual struggle with the antichrist of the apostate papacy.

They applied 2 Thessalonians 2:3 to that papacy.

Thus their "departing" meant the departing of that papacy, the man of sin, from the true faith.

Nothing to do with rapture.

 

[iamlamad]

The early translations using "departing" were written by Reformers, who were in epic spiritual struggle with the antichrist of the apostate papacy.

They applied 2 Thessalonians 2:3 to that papacy.

Thus their "departing" meant the departing of that papacy, the man of sin, from the true faith.

Nothing to do with rapture.

Of course you are free to believe what you choose to believe. I disagree. If we could pick one word from Strong's I think it would be "separation." A very similar word to "apostasia" is "apostasion" which Strong's tells us is "divorcement." Does someone "fall away" when divorced? No, they separate.

According to Strong's this apostasion comes from a root word of "aphistēmi" and the KJV translated that as "depart (10x), draw away (1x), fall away (1x), refrain (1x), withdraw self (1x), depart from (1x)." Take note, none of these Greek words tells us what is departed from. The only other text with apostasia, "Moses" was added to show what was being departed FROM.

What you cannot ignore is how Paul used this word in his sentence. He shows the man of sin as being revealed in 3b. Then he explains that the ONLY way the man of sin can be revealed is when the restraining power is "taken out of the way." Therefore, if you hold to a "falling away" that has to be the restrainer being "taken out of the way."

If the restrainer is the Holy Spirit working through the church, and much of the church falls away, one could think that those who are left would not be enough to restrain any longer so the man of sin could then be revealed. However, I don't think this is what Paul is saying. If this departing is not the rapture, then where in this passage does Paul get to the gathering? After all, that is what this whole passage is about.

 

[jgr]

Of course you are free to believe what you choose to believe. I disagree. If we could pick one word from Strong's I think it would be "separation." A very similar word to "apostasia" is "apostasion" which Strong's tells us is "divorcement." Does someone "fall away" when divorced? No, they separate.

According to Strong's this apostasion comes from a root word of "aphistēmi" and the KJV translated that as "depart (10x), draw away (1x), fall away (1x), refrain (1x), withdraw self (1x), depart from (1x)." Take note, none of these Greek words tells us what is departed from. The only other text with apostasia, "Moses" was added to show what was being departed FROM.

What you cannot ignore is how Paul used this word in his sentence. He shows the man of sin as being revealed in 3b. Then he explains that the ONLY way the man of sin can be revealed is when the restraining power is "taken out of the way." Therefore, if you hold to a "falling away" that has to be the restrainer being "taken out of the way."

If the restrainer is the Holy Spirit working through the church, and much of the church falls away, one could think that those who are left would not be enough to restrain any longer so the man of sin could then be revealed. However, I don't think this is what Paul is saying. If this departing is not the rapture, then where in this passage does Paul get to the gathering? After all, that is what this whole passage is about.

The issue is not what I believe.

The issue is what the Reformation translators believed it meant.

They believed it meant departure from the true faith.

As has every other English translator since.

 

[Berean Tim]

Since when did questioning become "doubting" ? You might want to look up what was noble about the Bereans since you're using their name.

I've had plenty of doubts. That's very different than doubting the Word of God.
You're the one posting a person named Ehrman rejected 2 Thessalonians, hardly a good source. That's what I'm referring to. You could at least give a reference to his work,I've never heard of him/her.

 

[jgr]

I've had plenty of doubts. That's very different than doubting the Word of God.
You're the one posting a person named Ehrman rejected 2 Thessalonians, hardly a good source. That's what I'm referring to. You could at least give a reference to his work,I've never heard of him/her.

That would be this Ehrman.
From the article:
"He remained a liberal Christian for 15 years, but later became an agnostic atheist after struggling with the philosophical problems of evil and suffering".

 

[Berean Tim]

That would be this Ehrman.
From the article:
"He remained a liberal Christian for 15 years, but later became an agnostic atheist after struggling with the philosophical problems of evil and suffering".

Thanks for the reference. I actually wrote a longer reply. But I going to hope and pray Rachel20 is just learning

 

[Berean Tim]

I've only recently started looking at this. I think what stands out to me is the letter specifies "now you know what is restraining" - the letter itself must reveal the restrainer. Paul believed in imminency (1 Thessalonians 5:2) yet gives a list of things that must happen first in 2 Thess 2. Ehrman sees this as a contradiction and rejects Paul even wrote the 2nd letter because of it. But logically, "imminency" can apply to the first thing in the list - the "falling away" - and that would be what overtakes the children of darkness but not the children of light. So now, you need to explain how an apostasia (by your definition) overtakes the children of darkness, who are already lost. And how it doesn't overtake the children of light per Paul (who's apostasia then?)

Erhman is an agnostic !!!! Do you think that's a good source ?

 

[jgr]

Erhman is an agnostic !!!! Do you think that's a good source ?

+ atheist.

 

[Timtofly]

Revelation 79After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

The Great Multitude is standing before the throne, this is after the 6th Seal before the 7th.

The Wrath "has come" Revelation 6:16&17, that would be before the Trumpets.

I just take it as it reads

15 That is why they are before God’s throne.

“Day and night they serve him in his Temple;
and the One who sits on the throne
will put his Sh’khinah upon them.

16 “They will never again be hungry,
they will never again be thirsty,
the sun will not beat down on them,
nor will any burning heat.

17 “For the Lamb at the center of the throne
will shepherd them, will lead them
to springs of living water,
and God will wipe every tear from their eyes.”

Yes, they have stood in judgment already. That is the point. You forgot they are also night and day in the temple.

That is not on earth. That is Paradise. How small do you think this throne is? Earth is the footstool to the throne. Matthew 5:35, Isaiah 66:1, Acts 7:48-50

48 But Ha‘Elyon does not live in places made by hand! As the prophet says,
49 ‘Heaven is my throne,’ says Adonai,
‘and the earth is my footstool.
What kind of house could you build for me?
What kind of place could you devise for my rest?
50 Didn’t I myself make all these things?’

Paradise is before the throne. In the 6th Seal, the fake universe sky is going to roll back, and instead of Satan's fake universe screen, all humanity will see the throne of God on the earth, with the feet (base of the throne) on the ground.

God placing His Sh’khinah glory means the church will shine as brightly as the stars. The church being on earth is not a thing after the 7th Seal. Only when the New Jerusalem, Paradise comes down after the NHNE. Revelation 21. The 6th Seal is not the battle of Armageddon. The 7th Trumpet stops sounding at the end of the battle of Armageddon. No Trumpet can start sounding until after the 7th Seal is opened.

 

[claninja]

Good point. We must take the verb tenses into account.

Of course we know that a "man" could not live from Paul's day to today. But a spirit behind the coming man of sin could certainly live from then to now. The "man of sin" will certainly be a man. But there will be a spirit behind that man.

Most people read right over Paul's statement: "and now you know what is restraining..." as if he did not write it. I think Paul TOLD us and that is why he wrote "and now you know..."

"Is already at work" is a also a present tense verb. So it's important to recognize that lawlessness was already at work in the first century, and was being restrained in the 1st century, until it would be made manifest in the son of of destruction, at the removal of the restrainer.

2 thessalonians 2:3-8 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the falling away comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming.

What is the lawlessness that was already at work in the first century?