Who is Robert Breaker? Is He a False Teacher?

No, I am not being overly sensitive, I am merely asking that you respect the rules and keep discussions on topic; and not of a personal nature.
I did not make ὀρθοτομέω mean what I wanted to any more than you have. I posted the Strong's Definition according to the lexicon on biblehub. It says "rightly divided / correctly apportioned".
G3718 - orthotomeō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)
Strong's Greek: 3718. ὀρθοτομέω (orthotomeó) -- to cut straight

Der Alte said:

Looks like I hit a sensitive nerve. What I see is a continuing attempt to make a word mean what you want it to mean, to make scripture fit your assumptions/presuppositions..
How many times is "orthotomeo" translated "divided" in the NT? Only one. 2 Timothy 2:15. The one and only occurrence in the NT.
The usual word for "divide" in the NT is μερίζω/meridzo, it occurs 14 times.
If Paul had wanted to indicate dividing something why would he use a different word than he used in Romans 12:31, 1 Corinthians 1:13, 1 Corinthians 7:17, 1 Corinthians 7:34, 2 Corinthians 10:13?
If orthotomeo means "rightly dividing" what part of the "the word of truth" is rightly divided from the rest of "the word of truth?" If the "word of truth" must be "rightly divided" that must mean part of the "word of truth" is not really "the word of truth" Does Paul ever explain that?

Click to expand...

There is no such thing as Romans 12:31. <Must have been a typo.
IF you discern that the OT is different from the NT; you are rightly dividing. (Things changed after the cross).
IF you discern that God's instructions to OT Israel are not the same as His instructions to the NT Body of Christ; you are rightly dividing, correctly handling, apportioning correctly.
IF you discern that prophesy was written in an earlier time period but meant for application to other group of people in later time period, you are rightly dividing.
IF you discern that the Pauline Epistles (Romans thorough Philemon) were written to and for the body of Christ (predominately Gentile and some Jews< AKA one new man in Christ Jesus) are different from the Hebrew Epistles (Hebrews through Jude) which were addressed only to Jewish (Tribulation) Saints; you are rightly dividing.
If you discern that the Synoptic Gospels were written to OT Israel (per Hebrews 9:15-17) before the cross, then you are rightly dividing.

You Posted:
"But, according to you: "The only message the 1st century believer needed was that they would be saved from God's righteous judgment, and inherit eternal life when they died IF they trusted by faith alone that Jesus (who is God in the flesh) had died to pay for their sins, that He was buried, and rose again the third day."

Which, according to you, then renders Revelation 3:3, SPECIFIALLY, irrelevant and specifically "UNNECESSARY" to the 1st century people at Sardis that Jesus was directly addressing as if falls outside of what you describe as "The only message the 1st century believer needed."


Revelation 3:3

King James Version

3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.


The Letters to the Churches are representative of all churches across the Church Age. All churches have wolves in sheep's clothing/tares in them. This church model (Sardis) was not looking for the rapture and would not recognize the time of the return of the bridegroom (Jesus) if they did not repent of living a worldly lifestyle because they living like Jesus was not coming back. They were not watching and would be caught unaware.

"Repent" (Metanoia) means to change one's mind leading to a change in direction.

"Overcome" means to have faith in the blood of the Lamb.
"The Bible has a lot to say about being an overcomer. The term overcomer is especially prominent in the book of Revelation, where Jesus encourages His people to remain steadfast through trials (Revelation 2:26; 3:21; 21:7). First John 5:4–5 says, “For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?”

Overcomers are followers of Christ who successfully resist the power and temptation of the world’s system. An overcomer is not sinless, but holds fast to faith in Christ until the end. He does not turn away when times get difficult or become an apostate. Overcoming requires complete dependence upon God for direction, purpose, fulfillment, and strength to follow His plan for our lives (Proverbs 3:5–6; 2 Corinthians 12:9).

The Greek word most often translated “overcomer” stems from the word nike which, according to Strong’s Concordance, means “to carry off the victory. The verb implies a battle.” The Bible teaches Christians to recognize that the world is a battleground, not a playground. God does not leave us defenseless. Ephesians 6:11–17 describes the armor of the Lord available to all believers. Scattered throughout this narrative is the admonition to “stand firm.” Sometimes all it takes to overcome temptation is to stand firm and refuse be dragged into it. James 4:7 says, “Resist the devil and he will flee from you.” An overcomer is one who resists sin no matter what lures Satan uses." ~ gotquestions

parousia70 said:

That had to be one of the longest NON answers I have ever received.

Here was my question:

WHAT COMANDMENT of the everlasting God can you show me that says the gospel (fine, Pauls Gospel of Grace) was to be preached to all the nations that Paul is referencing as a fulfilled reality?

I didnt ask for your opinion on kingdom vs grace.

I want to know what "Commandment of the everlasting God" that you believe Paul is referring to?



Which makes me wonder why you think the Times of the gentiles and the fulness of the gentiles, TWO DIFFERENT THINGS, are the same?



At what point did the Gospel of the Kingdom cease to be preached, in favor of the gospel of Grace?

Which one is being preached about here:
"He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love," Colossians 1:13

If the offer of the Kingdom had been rescinded at this point, How is it that Paul could be saying this?

Or here:
that you would walk worthy of God who calls you into His own kingdom and glory. 1 Thessalonians 2:12

How could God be STILL calling them into His Kingdom if the offer had been rescinded by this time?

Or here:
Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. Hebrews 12:28

How could they be RECEIVING a Kingdom at this time when the offer had been rescinded decades earlier?

Or here:
2 Peter 1:11
for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

How could an entrance to the Kingdom be supplied to them when the offer of that entrance had been rescinded?

Click to expand...

.

*********************************
If you cannot stick to one question per post, I am not going to indulge you.
You posted at least 5 questions. You must understand the difference between the Kingdom program for Israel and the Grace program for the body of Christ in order to understand my response(s).
Answer to your first question.
CONTEXT:
Jesus' instruction to Israel to preach the Gospel to all the world at the end of His earthly ministry was for them to preach "the Gospel of the Kingdom".
Israel as a nation rejected this instruction, and failed to obey Jesus' commandment; so the offer of the Kingdom coming during their lifetimes was delayed until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and Israel as a nation would repent and recognize that Jesus was Israel's rightful Messiah. That has not yet happened.

Because of Israel's refusals and rejection of Jesus as their Messiah, God then temporarily set Israel aside (Replacement Theology is a false doctrine) in Acts 7, and changed the content of the Gospel Message to Christ's Gospel of Grace; AKA Paul's Gospel. He changed the chief Apostle from the Apostle Peter to the Apostle Paul.
He chose a different group of people other than Israel to evangelize the world in order to make Israel jealous.
The Body of Christ was charged to evangelize the whole world, including Israel/Jews first.
We are currently failing in our appointed mission, and Jesus will soon return to put an end to the body of Christ on the Earth at the Rapture. The body of Christ will be translated to heaven as the bride of Christ.
God will then turn back to dealing with the world through the nation of Israel, and fulfill the prophetic promise of the 70th week of Daniel (Tribulation), AKA the time of Jacob's [Israel's] trouble. 69 weeks of the prophecy have already been fulfilled. The 70th week is The Tribulation, concluding with Armageddon, and will be followed by the Earthly Millennial Kingdom that was promised to Israel.

If you want to ask another question, feel free to do so.

RightlyDividedScriptures said:

No, I am not being overly sensitive, I am merely asking that you respect the rules and keep discussions on topic; and not of a personal nature.
I did not make ὀρθοτομέω mean what I wanted to any more than you have. I posted the Strong's Definition according to the lexicon on biblehub. It says "rightly divided / correctly apportioned".
G3718 - orthotomeō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)
Strong's Greek: 3718. ὀρθοτομέω (orthotomeó) -- to cut straight

Click to expand...

Addressing a perceived error is not violating the rules.
Therein lies the error you are using Strong's, compiled by one individual, more than 150 years ago. Which has been found to contain about 15,000 errors or omissions, Strong's vs, the BDAG which represents 120-160 years of scholarship.
Strong's does NOT define words it only shows where they are used in the Bible and how they were translated in the KJV. See ref. to 15,000 errors, above.

RightlyDividedScriptures said:

There is no such thing as Romans 12:31. <Must have been a typo.
IF you discern that the OT is different from the NT; you are rightly dividing. (Things changed after the cross).
IF you discern that God's instructions to OT Israel are not the same as His instructions to the NT Body of Christ; you are rightly dividing, correctly handling, apportioning correctly.
IF you discern that prophesy was written in an earlier time period but meant for application to other group of people in later time period, you are rightly dividing.
IF you discern that the Pauline Epistles (Romans thorough Philemon) were written to and for the body of Christ (predominately Gentile and some Jews< AKA one new man in Christ Jesus) are different from the Hebrew Epistles (Hebrews through Jude) which were addressed only to Jewish (Tribulation) Saints; you are rightly dividing.
If you discern that the Synoptic Gospels were written to OT Israel (per Hebrews 9:15-17) before the cross, then you are rightly dividing.

Click to expand...

All total nonsense. None of this is spelled out or even hinted in the entire NT.
Please show me conclusively that orthotomeo means "If you discern that the OT is different from the NT; you are rightly dividing. (Things changed after the cross)." etc,
Please quote me some scholars with some letters after their names, with scholarly evidence supporting their conclusions. Not just some anonymous person making a claim as you are doing.
There should be a great deal of orthotomeo in the N.T. but it only occurs one time. This is just a false scheme by so-called scholars, teachers, pastors trying to make the Bible say what they want it to.
Want to know what scholarship looks like? Here is the complete definition of ὀρθοτομέω from Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingrich, 120-160 years of combined scholarship.
The blue indicates ancient sources reviewed to determine the correct meaning. Compelling evidence should appear very much like this vice unsupported opinions.

RightlyDividedScriptures said:

.

*********************************
You must understand the difference between the Kingdom program for Israel and the Grace program for the body of Christ in order to understand my response(s).

Click to expand...

Which one is being preached about here:
"He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love," Colossians 1:13

If the offer of the Kingdom had been rescinded at this point, How is it that Paul could be saying this?

Or here:
that you would walk worthy of God who calls you into His own kingdom and glory. 1 Thessalonians 2:12

How could God be STILL calling them into His Kingdom if the offer had been rescinded by this time?

Or here:
Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. Hebrews 12:28

How could they be RECEIVING a Kingdom at this time when the offer had been rescinded decades earlier?

The Body of Christ was charged to evangelize the whole world, including Israel/Jews first.
We are currently failing in our appointed mission

Click to expand...

False. We can not Fail. (Matthew 16:18)
There are More Christians today than there were yesterday and ther will be more tomorrow than today.
Such is and has been the unbroken History of the Spread of the Gospel and increase of the Church since it began.

It saddens me to see so many Christians like you who have such a dim, defeatist view of the power of Gospel to make disciples of all nations in this age.

What a sad, pessimistic view that renders the Jesus and His Church impotent and powerless in the age of the everlasting Gospel where righteousness dwells, which Jesus Himself ushered into existence.

Contrary to the sad, sorry defeatism of premillennialists, scripture teaches us
we are to subdue kingdoms and establish righteousness as the Hebrews 11 heroes did:

Hebrews 11:6, 32-33
for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him...for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions

The Christian Church walks in this great heritage of unstoppable faith just like our Hebrews 11 brothers and sisters. We are in process of subduing kingdoms, establishing righteousness, and asserting Christ's dominion over all nations through the same faith of David, Samuel, Joshua, and Moses had.
Nothing can stop us (Matthew 16:18-19).

2 Corinthians 5:18-20
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, RECONCILING THE WORLD UNTO HIMSELF, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as God did beseech you by us

So we can see that at this time God is reconciling all the world unto himself.

1 John 4:4
Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them [past tense]: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1 John 2:13
ye have overcome the wicked one.

1 John 5:4
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith

Compared to the state of the planet 2000 years ago, there is no question that both the moral sense and the covenantal reality of nations have been radically changed for the better by Christ and the Church. Here's a great quote from David Chilton about the progress of Christendom:

"Examples could be multiplied in every field. The whole rise of Western Civilization - science and technology, medicine, the arts, constitutionalism, the jury system, free enterprise, literacy, increasing productivity, a rising standard of living, the high status of women - is attributable to one major fact: the West has been transformed by Christianity. True, the transformation is not yet complete. There are many battles ahead. But the point is that, even in what is still largely an early Christian civilization, God has showered us with blessings." - David Chilton

Just look at how Christian post- and a-millennialists built this great country!

And, sadly, just look at how Christian pre-millennialists abandoned this country. Since the mid-1800s, C.I. Scofield and DL Moody and Hal Lindsey (and even you) have been teaching a message that America is doomed "according to the bible." They even taught that voting and participation in civil duties were pointless. Such "prophetic inevitibility" and doomsaying doesn't create kingdom-buliders like Moses or Paul or George Washington--it creates only visionless do-nothing Christians. Only kingdom-advancing views such as preterism, postmillennialism, and certain ranks of amillennialism will be able to save our country and empower Christians to build newer and more godly ones for the future. America wasn't built by dispensationalists, but it sure has been hurt by them. Their theology of defeat must be resisted and trumped by the victorious truth about Christ and the kingdom.

None of this speaks kindly for the cowardice, abandonment, and dereliction of duty dispensational pre-millennialists have taught to our country and the Church. Endtimes madness--like that which paralyzes most pre millennialists and prevents them from experiencing the victory of our faith--must be ended if America is to return to her great heritage. The heathens aren't supermen, they're just plain old pagans who believe there is a future, and that the future belongs to anyone with the courage to fight for it.

The constant fearful statements and despair that pre milennialists express about the world and their daily lives shows us that their doctrine that fuels such a "defeat mentality" is not based on FAITH, HOPE, and LOVE. Compare Joshua to the other spies who were afraid and gave a bad report about the land. That story is like post millennialists and and pre millennialists today. Pre Mil's are the spies who always fearfully say "there are giants in the land!" Post and A-Millennialists are the JOSHUAS who say "THE LAND IS OURS! LET'S TAKE IT. God has given the land to US!"

We must not be fooled by the cowardly Christians that say "b-b-but...there are giants in the land!

parousia70 said:

Which one is being preached about here:
"He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love," Colossians 1:13

If the offer of the Kingdom had been rescinded at this point, How is it that Paul could be saying this?

Or here:
that you would walk worthy of God who calls you into His own kingdom and glory. 1 Thessalonians 2:12

How could God be STILL calling them into His Kingdom if the offer had been rescinded by this time?

Or here:
Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. Hebrews 12:28

How could they be RECEIVING a Kingdom at this time when the offer had been rescinded decades earlier?

Click to expand...

You are arguing the following

Since Paul preached the Kingdom of God
and 12 also preached the Kingdom of God

Therefore the 12 and Paul must be preaching the same gospel.

It is as valid as the following:

I preached that my wife had long hair and wearing dresses.
Someone else also preached his wife had long hair and wearing dresses.

Therefore we must be talking about/married to the same woman.

Guojing said:

You are arguing the following

Since Paul preached the Kingdom of God
and 12 also preached the Kingdom of God

Therefore the 12 and Paul must be preaching the same gospel.

It is as valid as the following:

I preached that my wife had long hair and wearing dresses.
Someone else also preached his wife had long hair and wearing dresses.

Therefore we must be talking about/married to the same woman.

Click to expand...

Rather, I am arguing that the one God has but one kingdom.

Are you arguing that the one God has two distinct and separate kingdoms?

If so you are arguing that because the 12 preached the kingdom of God and Paul preached the kingdom of God that proves they preached separate gospels because there are two distinct and separate kingdoms of the one God and he Had the 12 preach only of one of those kingdoms and had Paul preach of a completely separate and distinct kingdom.

This is what your “two separate wives with long hair equals two separate kingdoms” analogy is teaching.

it’s horse feathers.

RightlyDividedScriptures said:

No, I am not being overly sensitive, I am merely asking that you respect the rules and keep discussions on topic; and not of a personal nature.
I did not make ὀρθοτομέω mean what I wanted to any more than you have. I posted the Strong's Definition according to the lexicon on biblehub. It says "rightly divided / correctly apportioned".
G3718 - orthotomeō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)
Strong's Greek: 3718. ὀρθοτομέω (orthotomeó) -- to cut straight

Click to expand...

Sometimes clarity strikes me at the most inopportune moment. As I was laying me down to sleep last night this post suddenly struck me.
In another post, maybe more than one, I said that you are trying to make scripture say what you want it to. Which you denied of course.
While providing evidence for your view that "'orthotomeo' means rightly dividing" you posted the link above. This link lists definitions of "orthotomeo" from three sources; Vine's, Strong's and Thayer. Only one mentions "rightly dividing" i.e. Strong's. You ignored the majority and went straight for Strong's. the only source which supports what you already decided "orthotomeo" means. That is making scripture say what one wants it to.

parousia70 said:

Rather, I am arguing that the one God has but one kingdom.

Are you arguing that the one God has two distinct and separate kingdoms?

If so you are arguing that because the 12 preached the kingdom of God and Paul preached the kingdom of God that proves they preached separate gospels because there are two distinct and separate kingdoms of the one God and he Had the 12 preach only of one of those kingdoms and had Paul preach of a completely separate and distinct kingdom.

This is what your “two separate wives with long hair equals two separate kingdoms” analogy is teaching.

it’s horse feathers.

Click to expand...

My point is that just because the term "kingdom" appears in several places in the Bible, you cannot conclude that all of them have the same meaning.

There is a kingdom of heaven in Matthew, which has a very specific meaning, it refers to the reign of God on the Earth, as in the Lord's prayer, "thy kingdom come...on earth as it is in heaven".

This kingdom was promised to Israel in 2 Samuel 7:12-16 to King David, and repeated by the angel Gabriel to Mary in Luke 1:31-33

There is also a kingdom of God, which is mentioned by Paul, which is more broader and general and applies to all of us in the Body of Christ.

When you rubbish the point so quickly without asking more questions, I can see that your mind is closed about this topic, so let us agree to disagree and move on.

RightlyDividedScriptures said:

.

*********************************
If you cannot stick to one question per post, I am not going to indulge you.
You posted at least 5 questions. You must understand the difference between the Kingdom program for Israel and the Grace program for the body of Christ in order to understand my response(s).
Answer to your first question.
CONTEXT:
Jesus' instruction to Israel to preach the Gospel to all the world at the end of His earthly ministry was for them to preach "the Gospel of the Kingdom".
Israel as a nation rejected this instruction, and failed to obey Jesus' commandment; so the offer of the Kingdom coming during their lifetimes was delayed until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and Israel as a nation would repent and recognize that Jesus was Israel's rightful Messiah. That has not yet happened.

Because of Israel's refusals and rejection of Jesus as their Messiah, God then temporarily set Israel aside (Replacement Theology is a false doctrine) in Acts 7, and changed the content of the Gospel Message to Christ's Gospel of Grace; AKA Paul's Gospel. He changed the chief Apostle from the Apostle Peter to the Apostle Paul.
He chose a different group of people other than Israel to evangelize the world in order to make Israel jealous.
The Body of Christ was charged to evangelize the whole world, including Israel/Jews first.
We are currently failing in our appointed mission, and Jesus will soon return to put an end to the body of Christ on the Earth at the Rapture. The body of Christ will be translated to heaven as the bride of Christ.
God will then turn back to dealing with the world through the nation of Israel, and fulfill the prophetic promise of the 70th week of Daniel (Tribulation), AKA the time of Jacob's [Israel's] trouble. 69 weeks of the prophecy have already been fulfilled. The 70th week is The Tribulation, concluding with Armageddon, and will be followed by the Earthly Millennial Kingdom that was promised to Israel.

If you want to ask another question, feel free to do so.

Click to expand...

Nice, will you consider yourself an Acts 2 Dispensationalist, or Mid Acts?

Guojing said:

There is a kingdom of heaven ....

There is also a kingdom of God...

Click to expand...

They are synonyms. Compare the following:

--compare this--

Matthew 5:3
Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

--to this--

Luke 6:20
and said, blessed are the poor: for yours is the kingdom of God

--compare this--

Matthew 11:11
Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

--to this--

Luke 7:28
For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

--compare this--

Matthew 3:2
And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

--to this--

Mark 1:15
And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe the gospel

Since we know that parallel passages can not be interpreted in a way to render them polar opposite from one another, we know from these and many other parallel passages that The Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven are perfect synonyms all throughout the gospels. We could literally go through dozens and dozens of parallel passages where the gospel writers use these interchangeably. They are the same thing.

parousia70 said:

They are synonyms. Compare the following:

--compare this--

Matthew 5:3
Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

--to this--

Luke 6:20
and said, blessed are the poor: for yours is the kingdom of God

--compare this--

Matthew 11:11
Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

--to this--

Luke 7:28
For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

--compare this--

Matthew 3:2
And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

--to this--

Mark 1:15
And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe the gospel

Since we know that parallel passages can not be interpreted in a way to render them polar opposite from one another, we know from these and many other parallel passages that The Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven are perfect synonyms all throughout the gospels. We could literally go through dozens and dozens of parallel passages where the gospel writers use these interchangeably. They are the same thing.

Click to expand...

To the nation of Israel, I can agree with you, "that The Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven are perfect synonyms"

But my guess is that you are more of a covenant theologian in the way you interpret scripture?

Guojing said:

To the nation of Israel, I can agree with you, "that The Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven are perfect synonyms"

Click to expand...

Excellent!

The nation of Israel is made up of the following citizens:

(1) Jesus and his first century Jewish followers and converts (Galatians 6:15-16; Philippians 3:3; 1 Peter 2:9)

(2) The Old Testament believing jews and converts to the covenant (Ephesians 2:19-22)

(3) The gentile converts who were added in during Paul's ministry and made fellow citizens of the commonwealth of Israel (Ephesians 2:11-3:11; Colossians 2:24-27; Romans 11:17-23)

That is who National Israel is according to the scriptures.

The Remnant of the elect Jews followed God by following Jesus and his jewish apostles. They are True Faithful National Israel. Their jewish brothers who disobeyed and fought against them were cut off from among the Nation, as stated in Acts 3:22-24. The Rock crushed them (1 Peter 2:7-8/Matthew 21:43-45), for they rejected the time of God's visitation (Luke 19:40-44). And, this is the same pattern that took place in Isaiah's day (Isaiah 1:8-9) and in Elijah's day (1 Kings 19:1-18; Romans 11:2-4) -- i.e., the Believing REMNANT of the jews is National Israel and the rest were destroyed and do not have any heritage or citizenship (Rom 9:27/Rom 11:2-5).

parousia70 said:

Excellent!

The nation of Israel is made up of the following citizens:

(1) Jesus and his first century Jewish followers and converts (Galatians 6:15-16; Philippians 3:3; 1 Peter 2:9)

(2) The Old Testament believing jews and converts to the covenant (Ephesians 2:19-22)

(3) The gentile converts who were added in during Paul's ministry and made fellow citizens of the commonwealth of Israel (Ephesians 2:11-3:11; Colossians 2:24-27; Romans 11:17-23)

That is who National Israel is according to the scriptures.

The Remnant of the elect Jews followed God by following Jesus and his jewish apostles. They are True Faithful National Israel. Their jewish brothers who disobeyed and fought against them were cut off from among the Nation, as stated in Acts 3:22-24. The Rock crushed them (1 Peter 2:7-8/Matthew 21:43-45), for they rejected the time of God's visitation (Luke 19:40-44). And, this is the same pattern that took place in Isaiah's day (Isaiah 1:8-9) and in Elijah's day (1 Kings 19:1-18; Romans 11:2-4) -- i.e., the Believing REMNANT of the jews is National Israel and the rest were destroyed and do not have any heritage or citizenship (Rom 9:27/Rom 11:2-5).

Click to expand...

Yep, thanks for confirming you subscribe to covenant theology. No wonder you interpret scripture differently from dispensationalists.

Guojing said:

Yep, thanks for confirming you subscribe to covenant theology. No wonder you interpret scripture differently from dispensationalists.

Click to expand...

Interesting. I note you didn’t highlight even one material assertion from my post, that you could demonstrate from scripture, is incorrect.

Can you?

Can you show me from scripture where/when Israel is not identified by covenant?

Do dispensationalists reject biblical covenant identification of the Nation of Israel?

Is “covenant” a word to be avoided at all cost by dispensationalists when identifying Israel?

Or, are dispensationalists completely reliant on covenant as a means of identifying them after all?

National Israel, Since it’s inception, has only ever been identified by 2 things: Faith and Obedience.

Since it’s inception, the foreign born could gain Citizenship in the nation through faith and obedience to the covenant. Conversely, the native born son would lose his citizenship in the nation through unfaithfulness and disobedience to the covenant. In either case, their DNA is irrelevant. It's faith and obedience (or lack thereof) alone that identifies who is, and who isn't, National Israel.

This is plainly taught in Isaiah 1:8-9, where the NATION was reduced to a tiny faithful remnant, and the rest were cut off from any heritage or citizenship, and especially in Elijah's day, where the wicked, disobedient sons became so vast that National Israel was reduced to a mere 7000 men. (1 Kings 19:1-18, Romans 11:2-4) and the rest were cut off from the Nation forever.

This is the unbroken history of the biblical identity of national Israel.
God doesn’t Change how he Identifies National Israel.
Neither should we.

In contrast to this Biblical truth, Dispensationalism appears to take the opposite view; That the Wicked, unfaithful sons are the ones to be counted as the continuation of National Israel, while the obedient faithful ones are "cut off from the commonwealth forever".

parousia70 said:

Interesting. I note you didn’t highlight even one material assertion from my post, that you could demonstrate from scripture, is incorrect.
.

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Once you engaged in Christian debate with other believers over the Internet long enough, you will realized people rarely change their minds about what they believe in, especially in the short term.

You can explain all you want but people are going to interpret Scripture in the way they are used to.

Guojing said:

Once you engaged in Christian debate with other believers over the Internet long enough, you will realized people rarely change their minds about what they believe in, especially in the short term.

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This is my 21st year as a CF member. Is that long enough? lol
I see it’s been almost 3 years here for you.
Which is long enough to get your feet wet I suppose.

I have no intention of changing your mind, in fact I hope I never do. I don’t debate with Christians on the Internet to change the Mind of the person I’m debating with.

I debate to test my understanding against scripture, And I find debating with those who hold opposing viewpoints is a far more effective way to do so, than simply preaching to the choir.
Iron sharpens iron, after all.

I also debate for the vast amount of lurkers who do not post or engage at all publicly, but are simply reading the opposing views, following the conversation, searching the scriptures. Those are the people whose minds are not made up who can be reached and persuaded by the stronger scriptural argument. Which is why I hope the people I debate never change their view and continue to provide a stark contrast to my understanding. It gives the lurkers much more information to make an informed decision on any question of doctrine or theology they may still have, than reading a bunch of the same viewpoints would.

But I get you’re not wanting to go through the exercise.

I do find it strange that you continue to post and debate on a Christian debate Internet forum when you stated you don’t find it fruitful.

I’m sure there are plenty of “preach it to the choir” forums You could check out if you find that type of interaction more comforting.

It is unfortunate for your position that you backing out of continued debate with me will likely be seen by most of the lurkers as capitulation.
It’s the way I see it too, sadly.
But that’s ok, there is no shortage of willing debate opponents for me on CF.

parousia70 said:

This is my 21st year as a CF member. Is that long enough? lol
I see it’s been almost 3 years here for you.
Which is long enough to get your feet wet I suppose.
I have no intention of changing your mind, in fact I hope I never do. I don’t debate with Christians on the Internet to change the Mind of the person I’m debating with.
I debate to test my understanding against scripture, And I find debating with those who hold opposing viewpoints is a far more effective way to do so, than simply preaching to the choir.
Iron sharpens iron, after all.
I also debate for the vast amount of lurkers who do not post or engage at all publicly, but are simply reading the opposing views, following the conversation, searching the scriptures. Those are the people whose minds are not made up who can be reached and persuaded by the stronger scriptural argument. Which is why I hope the people I debate never change their view and continue to provide a stark contrast to my understanding. It gives the lurkers much more information to make an informed decision on any question of doctrine or theology they may still have, than reading a bunch of the same viewpoints would.
But I get you’re not wanting to go through the exercise.
I do find it strange that you continue to post and debate on a Christian debate Internet forum when you stated you don’t find it fruitful.
I’m sure there are plenty of “preach it to the choir” forums You could check out if you find that type of interaction more comforting.
It is unfortunate for your position that you backing out of continued debate with me will likely be seen by most of the lurkers as capitulation.
It’s the way I see it too, sadly.
But that’s ok, there is no shortage of willing debate opponents for me on CF.

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Ah a fellow longtime vet of CF. I joined CF either Dec '98 or Jan '99. Very early the original owner Irwin Loh asked me personally to be a mod. I was a mod for about 5 years but I had to take an unexpected train ride.
I soon realized that the same out-of-context proof texts and distorted arguments are endlessly repeated so I began saving all my responses so I did not have to reinvent the wheel day after day.
I continually review my replies and occasionally make changes to stay current with the latest scholarly findings.
I have spent a few $100 on scholarly resources e.g. BDAG, BDB, EOB, NIV with notes etc.

Der Alte said:

Ah a fellow longtime vet of CF. I joined CF either Dec '98 or Jan '99. Very early the original owner Irwin Loh asked me personally to be a mod. I was a mod for about 5 years but I had to take an unexpected train ride.
I soon realized that the same out-of-context proof texts and distorted arguments are endlessly repeated so I began saving all my responses so I did not have to reinvent the wheel day after day.
I continually review my replies and occasionally make changes to stay current with the latest scholarly findings.
I have spent a few $100 on scholarly resources e.g. BDAG, BDB, EOB, NIV with notes etc.

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The Search Feature on CF is quite handy, I used to save my replies too, for the same reasons, till I found out CF has been doing it for me all along

I know you and I have sparred a few times over the past couple decades, and I am a wiser man for it.

I coulda swore you used to have a different user name that I knew you by, but i think you told me it wasnt you.... My Memory isn't that great though...Maybe I'll search for that exchange we had