Who is redeemed?

[Xeno.of.athens]

Agreed. . .the word used in the passage is "world," not "all," both words having the same two different meanings, the second definition being the meaning in that verse based on apostolic teaching in the rest of the NT.

Perhaps you can state the "second definition" for, I presume, "world"?

 

[Clare73]

Perhaps you can state the "second definition" for, I presume, "world"?

Okay. . .

2) all without distinction (Gentile as well as Jew), includes believers of all nations, not just believing
Israel. . .which is in agreement with the apostolic teaching of the rest of the NT.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Okay. . .

2) all without distinction (Gentile as well as Jew), includes believers of all nations, not just believing
Israel. . .which is in agreement with the apostolic teaching of the rest of the NT.

Interesting. Which lexicon does that come from?
The lexicon I'm using says:

(B) The earth, this lower world as the abode of man. (1) The then-known world and particularly the people who lived in it (Mar 16:15; Joh 16:21, Joh 16:28; Joh 21:25; 1Ti 3:16; 1Pe 5:9; 2Pe 3:6). To come or be sent into the world means to be born, as in Joh 1:9. To go forth into the world means to appear before men as in Joh 3:17, Joh 3:19; Joh 6:14; 1Ti 1:15; Heb 10:5; 1Jn 4:1, 1Jn 4:9; 2Jn 1:7. Hyperbolically (Mat 4:8, "all the kingdoms of the world"; see Rom 1:8). (2) Metonymically, the world meaning the inhabitants of the earth, men, mankind (Mat 5:14; Mat 13:38; Joh 1:29; Joh 3:16; Rom 3:6, Rom 3:19; 1Co 4:13; 2Co 5:19; Heb 11:7; 2Pe 2:5; 1Jn 2:2). Hyperbolically, the world for the multitude, everybody (Joh 7:4 "show thyself to the world" means manifest thyself, do not remain in secret; Joh 12:19); metaphorically, that is openly (Joh 14:22; Joh 18:20; 2Co 1:12). It also stands for the heathen world, the same as tá éthnē (G1484), "the nations" (a.t. [Rom 11:12, Rom 11:15 {cf. Luk 12:30}]).​

On the next day, John saw Jesus coming toward him, and so he said: "Behold, the Lamb of God. Behold, he who takes away the sin of the world. "
John 1:29

Does Jesus take away the sins of the world?

 

[Clare73]

Interesting. Which lexicon does that come from?
The lexicon I'm using says:

(B) The earth, this lower world as the abode of man. (1) The then-known world and particularly the people who lived in it (Mar 16:15; Joh 16:21, Joh 16:28; Joh 21:25; 1Ti 3:16; 1Pe 5:9; 2Pe 3:6). To come or be sent into the world means to be born, as in Joh 1:9. To go forth into the world means to appear before men as in Joh 3:17, Joh 3:19; Joh 6:14; 1Ti 1:15; Heb 10:5; 1Jn 4:1, 1Jn 4:9; 2Jn 1:7. Hyperbolically (Mat 4:8, "all the kingdoms of the world"; see Rom 1:8). (2) Metonymically, the world meaning the inhabitants of the earth, men, mankind (Mat 5:14; Mat 13:38; Joh 1:29; Joh 3:16; Rom 3:6, Rom 3:19; 1Co 4:13; 2Co 5:19; Heb 11:7; 2Pe 2:5; 1Jn 2:2). Hyperbolically, the world for the multitude, everybody (Joh 7:4 "show thyself to the world" means manifest thyself, do not remain in secret; Joh 12:19); metaphorically, that is openly (Joh 14:22; Joh 18:20; 2Co 1:12). It also stands for the heathen world, the same as tá éthnē (G1484), "the nations" (a.t. [Rom 11:12, Rom 11:15 {cf. Luk 12:30}]).​

On the next day, John saw Jesus coming toward him, and so he said: "Behold, the Lamb of God. Behold, he who takes away the sin of the world. "
John 1:29

Does Jesus take away the sins of the world?

I've answered that from the apostolic teaching presented in the rest of the NT.

Yes, he takes away the sin of all believing Gentiles as well as believing Jews; i.e.,
he takes away the sin of the believing of all nations.

And those whose sins are taken away (remitted) do not go to hell.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I've answered that from the apostolic teaching presented in the rest of the NT.

Yes, he takes away the sin of all believing Gentiles as well as believing Jews; i.e., he takes away the sin of the believing of all nations.

John 1:29 does not say "Behold the lamb of God, behold him who takes away the sin of believers [of all nations]".

 

[Clare73]

John 1:29 does not say "Behold the lamb of God, behold him
who takes away the sin of believers [of all nations]".

Already answered: the rest of the NT apostolic teaching does.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Already answered: the rest of the NT apostolic teaching does.

You say it does, but that is only a theological opinion. The apostles' teaching is in the gospels and other books of the New Testament. The Apostles' teaching is in the words Behold, the Lamb of God. Behold, he who takes away the sin of the world.

 

[Clare73]

John 1:29 does not say "Behold the lamb of God, behold him who takes away the sin of believers [of all nations]".

You say it does, but that is only a theological opinion. The apostles' teaching is in the gospels and other books of the New Testament. The Apostles' teaching is in the world Behold, the Lamb of God. Behold, he who takes away the sin of the world.

Already addressed. . .

Jesus is not "theological opinion."

He said, "Whoever does not believe in the Son is condemned already." (John 3:18)

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Already addressed. . .

Jesus is not "theological opinion."

He said, "Whoever does not believe in the Son is condemned already." (John 3:18)

Yes, the Lord says that. But does the Lamb of God take away the sin of the world, as John 1:29 says that he does.

My little sons, this I write to you, so that you may not sin. But if anyone has sinned, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ, the Just One. And he is the propitiation for our sins. And not only for our sins, but also for those of the whole world.
1 John 2:1-2
​

 

[Clare73]

Yes, the Lord says that. But does the Lamb of God take away the sin of the world, as John 1:29 says that he does.

My little sons, this I write to you, so that you may not sin. But if anyone has sinned, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ, the Just One. And he is the propitiation for our sins. And not only for our sins, but also for those of the whole world.
1 John 2:1-2​

Do all go to heaven?

So some go to hell whose sins are forgiven, taken away (remitted)?
That's not good.

If their sin is forgiven, why do they need to go to hell?
Why can't they just go to heaven?

Is that the apostolic teaching of the NT?
Do you know how to handle the Scriptures? (2 Peter 3:16b)

Check out post #24.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Check out post #22.

Bad definition. A better is
Kosmos: (2) Metonymically, the world meaning the inhabitants of the earth, men, mankind (Mat 5:14; Mat 13:38; Joh 1:29; Joh 3:16; Rom 3:6, Rom 3:19; 1Co 4:13; 2Co 5:19; Heb 11:7; 2Pe 2:5; 1Jn 2:2).

 

[Clare73]

Bad definition. A better is
Kosmos: (2) Metonymically, the world meaning the inhabitants of the earth, men, mankind (Mat 5:14; Mat 13:38; Joh 1:29; Joh 3:16; Rom 3:6, Rom 3:19; 1Co 4:13; 2Co 5:19; Heb 11:7; 2Pe 2:5; 1Jn 2:2).

Check out post #30.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Check out post #30.

So, you just want to repeat yourself?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Do all go to heaven?

Probably not, the parables that the Lord told imply that some at least and possibly many will go to hell by following the wide and spacious road that leads there.

So some go to hell whose sins are forgiven, taken away (remitted)?
That's not good.

It is not good for any to go to hell, yet the scriptures imply that some do. now, is your intention with this remark to say that if one's sin is taken away one ought to not go to hell? Why do you reason that way?

If their sin is forgiven, why do they need to go to hell?

The Lord told a parable about a demon possessed person who had the demons cast out and received a warning to stop sinning lest he end in a worse state than before*. Would that not apply to those whose sin was taken away and then continued in sin? Saint Peter wrote about it like this:

For if, after taking refuge from the defilements of the world in the understanding of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they again become entangled and overcome by these things, then the latter state becomes worse than the former.
2 Peter 2:20​

Why can't they just go to heaven?

No one impure can be in God's presence; none who continue in sin can enter heaven.

Is that the apostolic teaching of the NT?

No, it seems to be a set of opinions that your post expresses but that are not in accord with holy scripture.

Do you know how to handle the Scriptures? (2 Peter 3:16b)

With reverence and prayer is the way I was taught; honesty and truth is the right frame of mind with which to approach scripture. Be free of the doctrines of worldly men and women, eschew immorality, keep away from deceit and then reading the scriptures will be profitable.

Check out post #24.

I read it and replied.

* When an unclean spirit goes out of a person it roams through arid regions searching for rest but finds none. Then it says, 'I will return to my home from which I came.' But upon returning, it finds it empty, swept clean, and put in order. Then it goes and brings back with itself seven other spirits more evil than itself, and they move in and dwell there; and the last condition of that person is worse than the first. Thus it will be with this evil generation.
Matthew 12:43-45

 

[Clare73]

Probably not, the parables that the Lord told imply that some at least and possibly many will go to hell by following the wide and spacious road that leads there.

It is not good for any to go to hell, yet the scriptures imply that some do. now,
is your intention with this remark to say that if one's sin is taken away one ought to not go to hell? Why do you reason that way?

Seems pretty obvious. . .

Your view has those whose sin is removed still suffering in hell when their sin has been dealt with by Jesus. Suffering for sin which has been removed is contrary to all justice.

The Lord told a parable about a demon possessed person who had the demons cast out and received a warning to stop sinning lest he end in a worse state than before*. Would that not apply to those whose sin was taken away and then continued in sin? Saint Peter wrote about it like this:

For if, after taking refuge from the defilements of the world in the understanding of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they again become entangled and overcome by these things, then the latter state becomes worse than the former.2 Peter 2:20
No one impure can be in God's presence; none who continue in sin can enter heaven.​

So their sin is forgiven, but they are not sin free?
What's the point of that? Your personal understanding makes no sense.

No, it seems to be a set of opinions that your post expresses but that
are not in accord with holy scripture.

Contraire. . .

Your view has those whose sin is removed still suffering in hell when their sin has been dealt with by Jesus, which is contrary to all justice.

With reverence and prayer is the way I was taught; honesty and truth is the right frame of mind with which to approach scripture. Be free of the doctrines of worldly men and women, eschew immorality, keep away from deceit and
then reading the scriptures will be profitable.

Which is not the same as understanding it in agreement with the rest of Scripture, because Scripture does not contradict itself, it contradicts only your misunderstanding of it.

I read it and replied.
* When an unclean spirit goes out of a person it roams through arid regions searching for rest but finds none. Then it says, 'I will return to my home from which I came.' But upon returning, it finds it empty, swept clean, and put in order. Then it goes and brings back with itself seven other spirits more evil than itself, and they move in and dwell there; and the last condition of that person is worse than the first. Thus it will be with this evil generation.
Matthew 12:43-45

Which has nothing to do with the topic at hand of Jesus taking away the sin of the world. . .

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Seems pretty obvious. . .

Your view has those whose sin is removed still suffering in hell when their sin has been dealt with by Jesus, which is contrary to all justice.

Catholics view the time when one's sin is taken away as the time of one's baptism. Thus, one's sin is taken away and yet one can continue in sin and so end up in a worse position than before one's baptism. But reading your posts gives the impression that the teaching you want to propagate is that one's sin is taken away at the end of one's life (or something) so that no opportunity to sin again is present and thus one whose sin is taken away will go to heaven because they have no sin. I think this, or some similar view, is the source of the counter points you raise. And because the view is fundamentally different from that which I've presented there will be no way to arrive at an agreed solution to the debate.

 

[Clare73]

Catholics view the time when one's sin is taken away as the time of one's baptism.

So the Lamb of God takes away the sin of the world at their baptism?
And those who are never baptized?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

So the Lamb of God takes away the sin of the world at their baptism?
And those who are never baptized?

Their sins are not washed away in baptism.

And now, why do you delay? Rise up, and be baptized, and wash away your sins, by invoking his name."
Acts 22:16
​

 

[Clare73]

Their sins are not washed away in baptism.

And now, why do you delay? Rise up, and be baptized, and wash away your sins, by invoking his name."
Acts 22:16​

So Christ doesn't take away the sins of the whole world in any meaningful sense. . .
​

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

So Christ doesn't take away the sins of the whole world in any meaningful sense. . .
​

The passage says "behold he who takes away the sin of the world" it does not say "whole world". Accuracy matters.