Who is in heaven, endtime deception?

[EastCoastRemnant]

K4C, where are you getting your information about Catholic tampering with the KJV? And what is the 'original' source that you refer to when you correct the KJV?

I know the reference with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as that was in your study but I am curious for your sources for the other contentions so that I may have it as a resource.

 

[stinsonmarri]

>Is this statement from E.G.White's false? "Moses came forth from the tomb glorified, and ascended with his Deliverer to the City of God."

How would we determine the truth or falseness of that sentence?

Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

David Conklin:
Did you get a reference because I checked all of resources and I have never seen it. Many will make up lies on EGW because of their lack of faith, also because the Church tried to make her a prophet when she was not. She prophesied and that is totally different than seeing something that was not revealed before. She was a messenger and during her time history was at an early stage. She used those who were not reliable sources to try and fill in the gaps of what she was revealed and what missing. We have good and reliable evidence today along with the Bible first, and then her writings to now understand in filling in the correct message of truth. People can tell you anything if you don't have reference to back it up!!!!

Blessings,
stinsonmarri

 

[stinsonmarri]

K4C, where are you getting your information about Catholic tampering with the KJV? And what is the 'original' source that you refer to when you correct the KJV?

I know the reference with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as that was in your study but I am curious for your sources for the other contentions so that I may have it as a resource.

ECR:​

[Possibly] as one of those medieval glosses but were then written into the text itself by a careless copyist. Erasmus omitted them from his first edition; but when a storm of protest arose because the omission seemed to threaten the doctrine of the Trinity (although that doctrine had in fact been formulated long before the textual variant), he put them back in the third and later editions, whence they also came into the textus receptus, 'the received text'.Jaroslav Pelikan, "Whose Bible Is It? A Short History of the Scriptures" p. 156)

The Trinitarian formula (known as the Comma Johanneum) made its way into the third edition of Erasmus’ Greek NT (1522) because of pressure from the Catholic Church. After his first edition appeared (1516), there arose such a furor over the absence of the Comma that Erasmus needed to defend himself. He argued that he did not put in the Comma because he found no Greek manuscripts that included it. Once one was produced (codex 61, written by one Roy or Froy at Oxford in c. 1520),​

I saw that Elohim had especially guarded the Bible; yet when copies of it were few, learned men had in some instances changed the words, thinking that they were making it more plain, when in reality they were mystifying that which was plain, by causing it to lean to their established views, which were governed by tradition. But I saw that the Word of Elohim, as a whole, is a perfect chain, one portion linking into and explaining another. True seekers for truth need not err; for not only is the Word of Elohim plain and simple in declaring the way of life, but the Holy Spirit is given as a guide in understanding the way to life therein revealed. EW 220, 221 ​

kc4 is correct about this all Biblical scholars know this including myself. It was place in to up hold the trinity that was implemented by the Catholic Church. I have in my possession the original Eusebius New Testament in both Greek and English and you will not find that verse in any of the old Greek and Aramaic manusripts. Now I hope you understand why I use the Sacred Names and do not accept the trinity because all this was changed by the Catholic church. This is also how they have Hellenized the modern world just as Daniel foretold!

Even EGW was shown that the Bible was changed to please men traditions and it is so sad that SDA have follow the world instead providing the truth to her people. We all must search the Scriptures carefully for ourselves learning the truth about language, linguistic, syntax, context and old Hebrew thought and grammar. It is here on the internet but you have to dig through the religious garbage and read the scholars who many are not spiritual but will provide evidence of truth. Why because there are facts in musems and libraries that provide the factual sources! Even EGW said we should not hold on to once ideas that was cherish but to listen and research for truth yourself! EGW also did not accept the trinity but our church is twisted believing in three Beings but under the trinity, now explain that one for me????​

Blessings​

stinsonmarri

 

[David Conklin]

>EGW also did not accept the trinity

She said nothing about it.

 

[OntheDL]

1 John 5:7 is referred to as Johanna's quota. This verse is in the Waldensian bible which was passed down to the protestant reformers to be translated into the protestant bible. Nothing to do with Catholics.

Johanna's quota also appeared in some early Christians' writings as early as 200s and 300s. That is about as early as most of the Greek manuscripts.

Lastly if you read Isaiah 9:6, it gives the titles of the Father, Son and the Spirit all to Jesus. The spirit of prophecy made many mentions of the triune Godhead.

Many of our Bibles, especially the KJV Bible, are heavily influenced by Catholic theology. Many words and thoughts are injected into translations in order to confirm certain beliefs such as see in 1 John 5:7. In order to confirm a Trinity doctrine certain verses needed to be tweaked or added to support what is taught for example, in the KJV, 1 John 5:7 goes like this.

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

If you use this verse to support the Trinity you will find that 1 John 5:7 in the original does not say, "and these three are one". This would cause you to have to search somehwhere alse for support.

It's the same with Matthew 28:19. If you use this verse to prove a Trinity God you would have to find somewhere else to get proof because this too was tweaked by Papal Rome to support a belief.

Matthew 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

These words, ‘In the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit’ are not the exact words used in the original language. Nowhere in the Bible are we called to do anything in the name of the Spirit nor do we find anywhere in the Bible a command to baptize using this formula. The biblical command for baptism is in the name of Jesus Christ, not the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Acts 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

So who added the words, Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

The Catholic Encyclopedia, II, page 263:​

"The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, and Holy Spirit by the Catholic Church in the second century."​

The Jerusalem Bible, a scholarly Catholic work, states: ​

"It may be that this formula, (Triune Matthew 28:19) so far as the fullness of its expression is concerned, is a reflection of the (Man-made) liturgical usage established later in the primitive (Catholic) community. It will be remembered that Acts speaks of baptizing "in the name of Jesus,"..."​

"The Demonstratio Evangelica" by Eusebius:​

Eusebius was the Church historian and Bishop of Caesarea. On page 152 Eusebius quotes the early book of Matthew that he had in his library in Caesarea. According to this eyewitness of an unaltered Book of Matthew that could have been the original book or the first copy of the original of Matthew. Eusebius informs us of Jesus' actual words to his disciples in the original text of Matthew 28:19: "With one word and voice He said to His disciples: "Go, and make disciples of all nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you." That "Name" is Jesus.​

The more you test, the less support you will find for certain beliefs injected in by Papal Rome.

For example, if you teach and believe in the holiday called, Easter, you are supporting a pagan belief suppoted by Papal Rome. They say Easter is the celebration of Jesus' resurrection but in fact it's not. Easter doesn't even come on the same day every year because it's not based on Jesus resurrection, but rather, sun worship. Yet, you will find the word, Easter, injected into the Bible to support that belief.

Acts 12:4 And when he had apprehended him, he put [him] in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people.

That Catholic church use statues, which is against the second commandment. So what was done to fix that? The second commadment was taken out of the Ten Commandments and the tenth commandment was then divided into two commandments so there would still be ten.

There are many of these things all throughout Scritpure that we need to test and study to find the truth. I say all this to say this.

Regarding the 24 elders, we find these verses tweaked to sound as though they are the redeemed, they were the ones who were made kings and priests.

Revelation 5:9-10 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

This too was done to support the belief that people are now alive in heaven, not to mention the fact that the angel tells John that what he was about to see something that was to take place in the future and was not literally happening when John saw it in vision.

So how should these verses be read? These 24 elders are not speaking of themselves as the redeemed nor are they saying they are the kings and priests, but rather, they are saying someone else is. Listen to it based on the original langauge.

Revelation 5:9-10 And they sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth."

So you see, I have to test all things before I hold on to what is true. This is why I'm sharing these things with my brothers and sisters here to sort through truth and error.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Lastly if you read Isaiah 9:6, it gives the titles of the Father, Son and the Spirit all to Jesus. The spirit of prophecy made many mentions of the triune Godhead.

Actually it doesn't say anything about the Spirit in Isaiah 9:6.... interesting about calling Jesus the Father though...

 

[k4c]

Actually it doesn't say anything about the Spirit in Isaiah 9:6.... interesting about calling Jesus the Father though...

The title, father, can be a referrence to the one who initiated something such as Satan being the father of lies. Jesus is the father of eternal life because He is the author of it.

Hebrews 5:9 Jesus, having been perfected, became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

All throughout the Bible we find Jesus having similar titles as His Father but you will also find that there are some titles that only refer to the Father, such as, the Most High God, the Ancient of days and so on.

 

[AveMaria_45]

how does anyone know who is not in heaven

 

[k4c]

how does anyone know who is not in heaven

Is your question referring to people in general or are you referring to a family member?

 

[AveMaria_45]

Either one I guess

 

[k4c]

Either one I guess

I'm probably not the best person to answer your question but I believe the dead are waiting in their grave for Jesus to resurrect them at His coming. Those who are still alive at Jesus' coming will be changed in a twinkle of an eye.

1 Corinthians 1:51-53 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

I believe (not dogmatically) that the teaching that says people (including Moses, Enoch and Elijah) are in heaven now is suspicious, but that's just me.

 

[AveMaria_45]

Oh, I don'r believe that. The saints are in heaven with the angels.

 

[OntheDL]

Actually it doesn't say anything about the Spirit in Isaiah 9:6.... interesting about calling Jesus the Father though...

The "Counsellor" is a function/title of the spirit.

 

[stinsonmarri]

Hi K4C

There are two families of manuscripts from which all the bibles are translated.

1. The Greek Majority text. This includes 99.9% of the manuscripts found in existence. This is the basis of which Eramus translated the NT from. And it is the basis for all protestant reformation bibles: KJV, Tyndale, Lutheran...

2. The Greek Minority text. Found in less than 0.1% of the all the Greek manuscripts. These are called Alexandrian text, Viticaniticus and Sinaiticus. These are the foundation of the (corrupt) modern translation.

The KJV is static-equivalent, meaning it was translated word for word based on the vast majority of the manuscripts discovered. I believe God preserved His Word in Hebrew, Greek and then in English (KJV). The modern translations are a (Catholic) attempt to corrupt the pure Word of God.

OntheDL: ​

You brought out some correct information but also some errors and you did not go deep enough. k4c and you also were wrong on the following points:​

1. Eusebius: Matthew 28:19 did state all three, I have the Nestle and Aland since the early 80's also I have the a few of Aramaic Manuscripts versions as well. The Shem Tov's Matthew‎ have the three but some don't and there are arguments over these points in the Biblical arean constantly. However I feel the best research team I seem to agree with is the Institute for Scripture Research and there version of the Bible. The reason is there gift is to lend more to the original believe that the NT was written in Hebrew but later as the Gentiles (Greek and Latin people only) accepted the faith and grew, large Greek manuscripts were written. ISR also felt that Hellenistic corruption also were found especially after Constantine formed the Catholic Church. Eusebius and others were felt influence by Constantine especially over the trinity and Sunday worship. But keep in mind that Paul stated that iniquity was already at work well before Constantine and the true followers of Yashua were called Nazarenes and not Christians and they split off from the larger group. Some like our group and the original Millerite Movement only in reverse!​

2. Easter is not the correct name but they followed the correct lunarsolar settings but they used only a lunar calendar. He rose during the Feast of Unleavened Bread which had seven days and tomorrow after the Sabbath is always Sunday. This day was also the sign post pointing that the Feast Days were also a part of the salvation plan as well. Tis day was also called the Wave Sheaf because the next seven Sabbaths were counted and that Sunday after the seventh Sabbath makes fifty days and this system lead to the day called Pentecost of Feast of Weeks. Pentecost always falls on a Sunday and it marked the beginning of the out pouring or the Holy Spirit (not a ghost). ​

3. Catholic church use statues like all people do even today that changed Yahweh original Feast Days which are statues. Dan 7:25 said that the Catholic would attempt to changed Yahweh's Statues laws which are the Feast Days and all Bible scholars confirms that is what Daniel meant instead of the word "time."

4. Ten Commandments were not only changed by the Catholic church but the word ten was also a deceptive plot as well. "eser asarah," does not mean the digit ten but to the tenth power or amplified. Ex 24:12 and whenever Yahweh and Yashua spoke you will not see a ten at all beside the word "commandments." Once again man has tampered with the Scriptures so people would lose the full spirit of truth they contained.

5. 24 Elders: I do agree with kc4 on the point that they are not the redeem, but I also disagree with him because they also speak to John. The Bible made it clear in Matt 27:50-53 that people were resurrected during the time of Yashua's death. These people also went back to Heaven with Yashua for a reason. Once again many really do not understand the totality of the Investigated Judgment. We are made like the three Almighty Ones and we just don't seem to get it. What is an Investigated Judgment? The Bible tells in Daniel 7:9-14 and in Rev 5-19 but in more explicit detail that a courtroom is in Heaven and there is a Judge (the Father), Prosecutor (the Law of Elohim), a Lawyer for the Defense (Yashua), the Bailiff (the Holy Spirit), recording clerks (angels), the superior clerk or the sealing clerk (angel with the ink horn), jury of your peers (24 elders), the defendant (each person who are obedient to all of Elohim's laws), and the observers (other also resurrected with the 24 elders). Names will remain in the Book, blotted out of the Book, and other names placed in the Book of Life. This is the sealing process found in Rev 5-7 and those horses are the earth during periods of time and not the church!!!!​

6. The Greek Majority text, Alexandrian text, Viticaniticus and Sinaiticus. Here is where you have made a slight error because they all are corrupted and this is the foundation starting with the KJV, Tyndale, Lutheran up to the modern versions. ​

The events of Scripture did not occur in the modern western world, with its Anglo-Hellenist mindset, but within the very different world of the ancient middle-east, and the Semitic mindset of the People of Yisra’el. While we have sought to accurately translate rather than to interpret, aiming at producing a literal translation rather than a paraphrase. . .​

The rendering of words such as Hades (a Greek term, loaded with pagan connotations,
variously rendered by different translators as “pit”, “grave”, and “hell”) by their Hebrew or Aramaic equivalent instead, such as She’ol (which does mean grave). ISR
The Septuagint contains the books of the Hebrew Bible, the deuterocanonical books - that is, those not in the Hebrew version but accepted by the Christian church - and the Apocrypha. Ancient manuscripts from Qumran suggest that the Septuagint often followed a Hebrew text different from the present authoritative Hebrew text. Thus its value for textual criticism has been enhanced. The Septuagint provides an understanding of the cultural and intellectual settings of Hellenistic Judaism. Norman K Gottwald

I have presented these facts as a Biblical Historian and a faithful SDA holding on to the original standards of the church that our pioneers formed after 1844 and accepting the message of 1888. EGW confirmed that words in the Bible were changed during the popular use of the KJV, Tyndale and Lutheran versions of the Bible. These Bibles were changed and interpreted to meet the beliefs of those who translated it with the main false version the LXX know as the Septuagint!​

Blessings,
stinsonmarri​

 

[stinsonmarri]

1 John 5:7 is referred to as Johanna's quota. This verse is in the Waldensian bible which was passed down to the protestant reformers to be translated into the protestant bible. Nothing to do with Catholics.

Johanna's quota also appeared in some early Christians' writings as early as 200s and 300s. That is about as early as most of the Greek manuscripts.

Lastly if you read Isaiah 9:6, it gives the titles of the Father, Son and the Spirit all to Jesus. The spirit of prophecy made many mentions of the triune Godhead.

OntheDL:
Again you are wrong to believe this because Catholism controlled the versions of the Bible and the Greek versions were already corrupted. They mainly translated the Greek instead of the Aramaic Manusripts or even the old Hebrew Manuscripts that were around during this period of time. They refused these manuscript because of the Europeans concept as a whole were against the Jews. The Waldensian kept the Sabbath and obeyed the commandments but they did not use the Sacred Names amoung a few other things that were tainted by the large Christian sect. If you understood the name Christian was given to them as a curse! The Nazarenes remain fully obedient for a littler longer but as I said to you Paul saw corruption creeping into the church during his day. Most don't know that the original Vulgate that Jerome translated was base on the Hebrew text instead of the Septuagint but it was changed by the Catholic Church even though the Church chose him to translate the original work!
You must do a lot of research to truly understand that after the apostles died many of the Greek Bishops changed many of the truth to their Hellenistic belief in Eastern and Greek Mystery religions that are accepted by all churches today including SDA!

Blessings,
stinsonmarri

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Oh, I don'r believe that. The saints are in heaven with the angels.

The Bible is very clear in teaching that when we die, we go into a state known as sleep and that we have no thoughts or are able to praise God anymore. It is only at the Jesus' second coming that we will be called up from our graves, out of our sleeping state, to be with the Lord forever. Many churches have taught that we have a soul that is immortal and goes directly to heaven upon death, but there is no Biblical evidense for it. It is just Satan continuing his lie that he told to Eve, that even though we sin, we will not surely die, even though God said we would.

 

[k4c]

The Bible is very clear in teaching that when we die, we go into a state known as sleep and that we have no thoughts or are able to praise God anymore. It is only at the Jesus' second coming that we will be called up from our graves, out of our sleeping state, to be with the Lord forever. Many churches have taught that we have a soul that is immortal and goes directly to heaven upon death, but there is no Biblical evidense for it. It is just Satan continuing his lie that he told to Eve, that even though we sin, we will not surely die, even though God said we would.

Amen...

You have a gift of presenting clear truth, God be praised.

There is such confusion in the Christian church today, these are surely the last days. It's so simple to find truth if we allow the Spirit to lead and confirm. Immortality is a gift from God to the righteous, not the wicked. Now the question is, when do the righteous put on immortality? It's an easy question to answer when we allow the Bible to speak for itself.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

OntheDL:
Again you are wrong to believe this because Catholism controlled the versions of the Bible and the Greek versions were already corrupted. They mainly translated the Greek instead of the Aramaic Manusripts or even the old Hebrew Manuscripts that were around during this period of time. They refused these manuscript because of the Europeans concept as a whole were against the Jews. The Waldensian kept the Sabbath and obeyed the commandments but they did not use the Sacred Names amoung a few other things that were tainted by the large Christian sect. If you understood the name Christian was given to them as a curse! The Nazarenes remain fully obedient for a littler longer but as I said to you Paul saw corruption creeping into the church during his day. Most don't know that the original Vulgate that Jerome translated was base on the Hebrew text instead of the Septuagint but it was changed by the Catholic Church even though the Church chose him to translate the original work!
You must do a lot of research to truly understand that after the apostles died many of the Greek Bishops changed many of the truth to their Hellenistic belief in Eastern and Greek Mystery religions that are accepted by all churches today including SDA!

Blessings,
stinsonmarri

How do we know what is truth if all manuscripts we have are corrupted?

 

[k4c]

How do we know what is truth if all manuscripts we have are corrupted?

These corruptions are only here and there. When we study the Bible as whole you will begin to see the big picture in God's plan and His will for His people. When we find a contradiction in our belief with the big picture we have to research that paticular belief to find it's origin. Sometimes we may need to refer to multiple translations and the original langauge to find the missing pieces to the puzzle. Even though we don't have a correct or complete understanding of all things God will honor our desire to seek and know His truth and will open our hearts to receive it.

 

[OntheDL]

These corruptions are only here and there. When we study the Bible as whole you will begin to see the big picture in God's plan and His will for His people. When we find a contradiction in our belief with the big picture we have to research that paticular belief to find it's origin. Sometimes we may need to refer to multiple translations and the original langauge to find the missing pieces to the puzzle. Even though we don't have a correct or complete understanding of all things God will honor our desire to seek and know His truth and will open our hearts to receive it.

K4C,

Psalm 12
6The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
7Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

That's God's promise and you'd better believe it.

God preserved His word through a remnant.

Here is a good book to read on the how God did just that.

http://www.sdadefend.com/MINDEX-Resource Library/Our Authorized Bible Vindicated.pdf