I have an intrest in endtime deception, which led me to study out many things being taught today in mainline churches. Because of this, I did a very interesting study on the topic of, who is in heaven. If anyone would like to read it I will send it to you privately and can discuss it openly here.
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Who is in heaven, endtime deception?
- Thread starter k4c
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k4c
I'm interested to read your study...can you send me a copy? BTW I hope you remember me...I'm the one who emailed you asking some questions...
Thanks!
I'm interested to read your study...can you send me a copy? BTW I hope you remember me...I'm the one who emailed you asking some questions...
Thanks!
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yep! I've been here exactly 2months today..I always visit here everyday, reading every thread but I dont participate in discussions.
Btw can you send me a copy?
thanks!
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yep! I've been here exactly 2months today..I always visit here everyday, reading every thread but I dont participate in discussions.
Btw can you send me a copy?
thanks!
I did send you a copy...
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Let's open it up for discussion.
Let's take a look at Moses since he is the first one we believe was given immortality. What does the Bible say?
1 Timothy 6:16 God alone has immortality...
Are we saying that God is not the only one who has immortality?
People teach that Moses was the first to be raised from the dead and given immortality, even before Jesus. What does the Bible say?
Colossians 1:18 Jesus, the firstborn from the dead...
Are we saying Jesus is not the firstborn from the dead, but rather, Moses is?
Can someone show me where Moses was resurrected and given immortality?
Didn't Moses die and was buried and to this day we no not where?
Deuteronomy 34:5-6 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.
Let's take a look at Moses since he is the first one we believe was given immortality. What does the Bible say?
1 Timothy 6:16 God alone has immortality...
Are we saying that God is not the only one who has immortality?
People teach that Moses was the first to be raised from the dead and given immortality, even before Jesus. What does the Bible say?
Colossians 1:18 Jesus, the firstborn from the dead...
Are we saying Jesus is not the firstborn from the dead, but rather, Moses is?
Can someone show me where Moses was resurrected and given immortality?
Didn't Moses die and was buried and to this day we no not where?
Deuteronomy 34:5-6 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.
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Great study K4C!
I wasn't as convicted on the Enoch part as there are so many meanings to the word 'abar' that it could still be understood as he passed over. To me, the way Enoch was listed as 'And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.' is so different from how all the other antidiluvian patriarchs are listed. There must be a reason... also, if Enoch was taken without seeing death, then he would not have been the first one resurrected. Just a thought...
The argument of Moses was solid to me with the clarification on the misuse of the word 'body' in Jude 1. The transfiguration on the mount is still a mystery to me, however. I was thinking, how did the apostles know that it was Elijah and Moses? It's not like they ever met them and had not yet received the Holy Spirit upon themselves to have that discernment... did they assume this or did Jesus tell them? could it have been two attending angels?
For Elijah, I am still trying to understand the meaning of the verses in 2 Kings 2 where it desribes the chariot of fire and the whirlwind. This same language is used in Isaiah 66:15
For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
I don't know that I have fully locked down the argument with Elijah... you do a good job when you show the similarities in Philip being taken away, but I don't know if it was the same as what Elijah experienced.
Also, the verse in 2 Chronicles 21 when the king received a message from Elijah... I don't have access to my E-Sword here at work, but could the name of Elisha have beed translated wrongly to Elijah? The reason why I am skeptical of this is at no other time did God take a prophet away from His people to dwell apart from them in another place, never to be seen again... just seems odd to me.
Anyway, these are my initial thoughts... like I said, excellent research and I am praying for the Holy Spirit to convict us of the truth in these matters that we may rightly understand.
I wasn't as convicted on the Enoch part as there are so many meanings to the word 'abar' that it could still be understood as he passed over. To me, the way Enoch was listed as 'And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.' is so different from how all the other antidiluvian patriarchs are listed. There must be a reason... also, if Enoch was taken without seeing death, then he would not have been the first one resurrected. Just a thought...
The argument of Moses was solid to me with the clarification on the misuse of the word 'body' in Jude 1. The transfiguration on the mount is still a mystery to me, however. I was thinking, how did the apostles know that it was Elijah and Moses? It's not like they ever met them and had not yet received the Holy Spirit upon themselves to have that discernment... did they assume this or did Jesus tell them? could it have been two attending angels?
For Elijah, I am still trying to understand the meaning of the verses in 2 Kings 2 where it desribes the chariot of fire and the whirlwind. This same language is used in Isaiah 66:15
For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
I don't know that I have fully locked down the argument with Elijah... you do a good job when you show the similarities in Philip being taken away, but I don't know if it was the same as what Elijah experienced.
Also, the verse in 2 Chronicles 21 when the king received a message from Elijah... I don't have access to my E-Sword here at work, but could the name of Elisha have beed translated wrongly to Elijah? The reason why I am skeptical of this is at no other time did God take a prophet away from His people to dwell apart from them in another place, never to be seen again... just seems odd to me.
Anyway, these are my initial thoughts... like I said, excellent research and I am praying for the Holy Spirit to convict us of the truth in these matters that we may rightly understand.
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Thanks...
The translator of Hebrews uses some strange words when referring to what happened to Enoch such as the word, translated. The word (translated) carry these meanings, perish, remove, take away. These words can mean Enoch ascended to heaven, which would mean Jesus is not the only who ascended to heaven...
John 3:13 Jesus said, No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven–the Son of Man.
...or they can mean Enoch died. Since Hebrews tells us plainly how all these men of faith, including Enoch, died without receiving the promise we would have to conclude that faithful Enoch also died without receiving the promise.
Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises,
We don't know how they knew it was Moses and Elijah but either way it was a vision. A vision does not have to be a litteral reality. In other words, what they saw, they saw, but it doesn't mean it was real. Jesus even tells them not to tell the vision to anyone, Mat 17:9. Now let's say it was a litteral reality and it was in fact Moses and Elijah. It does not say they came from heaven or the grave for this appearing. We assume they came from heaven because of a preconceived belief they died and went to heaven before Jesus. If this is true, then it flies in the face of God's eternal plan to raise Jesus as the firstborn from the dead. It flies in the face in that God is the only one who has immortality. Do we overlook all these things in order to believe something else? Or do we restudy and seek for truth?
The Elijah who wrote the letter is the same Elijah who was taken in a whirlwind years ealier. Remember, they knew God was going to take Elijah away from them.
2 Kings 2:5 Then the students at Jericho came to Elisha and asked him, "Do you know that the Lord is going to take away your master today?'' "Will you please be quiet?'' he commanded.”Of course I know it!''
When it happened they even offered to go look for him so they knew he had not gone to heaven.
2 Kings 2:16 "Elisha,'' they said, "just say the word and fifty of our best men will search the wilderness for your master (Elijah); perhaps the Spirit of the Lord has left him on some mountain or in some ravine.'' "No,'' Elisha said, "don't bother.''
Amen...
I believe Satan has distorted most of what God has said and what God's plan is.
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Servant of the Lord
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Hope you don't mind k4c, but I wanted to post some of my thoughts and some of Sister White's testimony here to open the discussion.
On Moses/Elijah: (2 Kings 2:11)
Elijah's Translation. --
Elijah was a type of the saints who will be living on the earth at the time of the second advent of Christ and who will be "changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump," without tasting of death. 1 Corinthians 15:51, 52. It was as a representative of those who shall be this translated that Elijah, near the close of Christ's earthy ministry, was permitted to stand with Moses by the side of the Saviour on the mount of transfiguration. In these glorified ones, the disciples saw in miniature a representation of the kingdom of the redeemed. They beheld Jesus clothed with the light of heaven; they heard the "voice out of the cloud" (Luke 9:25), acknowledging Him as the Son of God; they saw Moses, representing those who will be raised from the dead at the time of the second advent; and there also stood Elijah, representing those who at the close of earth's history will be changed from mortal to immortal and be translated to heaven without seeing death (Prophets and Kings 227)
On Enoch: (Genesis 5:24)
Character of Enoch.
By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; . . . for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. Hebrews 11:15. In the midst of a world by its iniquity doomed for destruction Enoch lived a life of such close communion with God that he was not permitted to fall under the power of death. The godly character of this prophet represents the state of holiness which must be attained by those who shall be redeemed from the earth (Revelation 14:3) at the time of Christs Second Advent. Then, as in the world before the Flood, iniquity will prevail. Following the promptings of their corrupt hearts and the teachings of a deceptive philosophy, men will rebel against the authority of Heaven. But like Enoch, Gods people will seek for purity of heart and conformity to His will, until they shall reflect the likeness of Christ. Like Enoch, they will warn the world of the Lords second coming and of the judgments to be visited upon transgression, and by their holy conversation and example they will condemn the sins of the ungodly. As Enoch was translated to heaven before the destruction of the world by water, so the living righteous will be translated from the earth before its destruction by fire (Patriarchs and Prophets 88, 89)
On Moses/Elijah: (2 Kings 2:11)
Elijah's Translation. --
Elijah was a type of the saints who will be living on the earth at the time of the second advent of Christ and who will be "changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump," without tasting of death. 1 Corinthians 15:51, 52. It was as a representative of those who shall be this translated that Elijah, near the close of Christ's earthy ministry, was permitted to stand with Moses by the side of the Saviour on the mount of transfiguration. In these glorified ones, the disciples saw in miniature a representation of the kingdom of the redeemed. They beheld Jesus clothed with the light of heaven; they heard the "voice out of the cloud" (Luke 9:25), acknowledging Him as the Son of God; they saw Moses, representing those who will be raised from the dead at the time of the second advent; and there also stood Elijah, representing those who at the close of earth's history will be changed from mortal to immortal and be translated to heaven without seeing death (Prophets and Kings 227)
On Enoch: (Genesis 5:24)
Character of Enoch.
By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; . . . for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. Hebrews 11:15. In the midst of a world by its iniquity doomed for destruction Enoch lived a life of such close communion with God that he was not permitted to fall under the power of death. The godly character of this prophet represents the state of holiness which must be attained by those who shall be redeemed from the earth (Revelation 14:3) at the time of Christs Second Advent. Then, as in the world before the Flood, iniquity will prevail. Following the promptings of their corrupt hearts and the teachings of a deceptive philosophy, men will rebel against the authority of Heaven. But like Enoch, Gods people will seek for purity of heart and conformity to His will, until they shall reflect the likeness of Christ. Like Enoch, they will warn the world of the Lords second coming and of the judgments to be visited upon transgression, and by their holy conversation and example they will condemn the sins of the ungodly. As Enoch was translated to heaven before the destruction of the world by water, so the living righteous will be translated from the earth before its destruction by fire (Patriarchs and Prophets 88, 89)
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Servant of the Lord
Newbie
My thoughts Col 1:18: "And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence."
We know from the Bible that Jesus is the beginning and the end, Alpha and Omega. We know that he precedes all creation because indeed, nothing was created that was not created but by Him.
But will we not also be firstborn among many brethren?
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Romans 8:28-29
I believe the use of term firstborn both in Colossians and in Romans notes position in Heaven. God will also account the saved as brothers and sisters of Christ.
But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! (Matthew 12:48-49)
My thoughts are that the Bible and the testimony from our end time messenger support each other on the issue on the Bible account that Moses/Elijah/Enoch are indeed alive and well.
I look forward to more thoughts as we prayerfully consider and interpret the Word of God on these matters.
-SotL
We know from the Bible that Jesus is the beginning and the end, Alpha and Omega. We know that he precedes all creation because indeed, nothing was created that was not created but by Him.
But will we not also be firstborn among many brethren?
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Romans 8:28-29
I believe the use of term firstborn both in Colossians and in Romans notes position in Heaven. God will also account the saved as brothers and sisters of Christ.
But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! (Matthew 12:48-49)
My thoughts are that the Bible and the testimony from our end time messenger support each other on the issue on the Bible account that Moses/Elijah/Enoch are indeed alive and well.
I look forward to more thoughts as we prayerfully consider and interpret the Word of God on these matters.
-SotL
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