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Biblewriter

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Excellent recomendation to search the OT prophets for the idenity of Gog from the land of Magog.He certainly is not the Khazars or Russia.

The families of the prophetic nations are told in scripture. But the places named (other than those near Israel) are no longer known by the same names. So we need to study ancient history to know where these people lived.

The information I gave in post number 2 in this thread is not something I picked up from a commentary somewhere. I read a commentary on Ezekiel, and it very confidently told the identities of all the nations involved. Then I read a second one, and then a third. All three gave the modern identities of these nations, and all three lists were different!

I said, enough of this nonsense, I'm going to find out for myself who the are. I spent literally years studying ancient history, not books about ancient history, but books written in ancient times. The conclusions I reached were based entirely on what these ancient documents said. But after my studies were complete, I checked what modern historians say about these ancient nations, and found that my findings corresponded with their conclusions 100%.

When researching the origins of the name Rus, the tribe for which Russia is named, I finally found the oldest known mention of the name, and it was in a commentary on Ezekiel 38! (This was from about the year 450.)
 
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tranquil

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I came across something recently, can't find it in the news now, but it said something about Russian tanks' armor was now being made with depleted uranium. This could be the fuel source that burns for 7 years.
 
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trumpeter

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Eze 38:17
This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Are you not the one I spoke of in former days by my servants the prophets of Israel? At that time they prophesied for years that I would bring you against them.

OT prophets spoke of Gog by another name that would come against Israel. Word search biblegateway.com for “the Assyrian;” (the NIV) he is Gog.

Your summation after extensive research on the identity of Gog:

From a map in The Bible Knowledge Commentary by Walvoord and Zuck; Gomer is northern Turkey, Meshech western Turkey, Tubal and Beth Togarmah eastern Turkey. The land of Magog encompasses all these lands including the northwestern corner of Syria. The invading force may include Azerbaijan which is Muslim but not Georgia which is Orthodox or Armenia which is Apostolic. The Assyrian, as Gog, will join forces from the descendents of Japhet who dwelled in most of Turkey after the flood (Gen 10:1-3).

Turkey has 500,000 armed soldiers and is adding another 500,000 men to their ranks. They will be the “great company” from the north invading Israel mid way into the 7 year covenant (38:4).
 
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trumpeter

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Eze 38:13

For sure the three ancient nations here are observers and not participants in the Eze 38 invasion. Tarshish is also mention in connection with Sheba and Dedan in Ps. 72:10; Isa 60:9. From OT scripture Tarshish seems to have been connected with Sheba and other locations in south Arabia or east Africa, probably on the Red Sea.

Sheba would have been located some where in central or southern Arabia.

Dedan was a tribe and territory in southern Edom or northern Arabia with access to the Gulf of Agaba at the northern end of the Red Sea.

Tarshish, Dedan and Sheba are not in Israel when Gog invades Israel, they are watching the action from nearby Saudi Arabia.
 
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Biblewriter

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According to Nahum 1:11 (compared with Nahum 1:1) the Assyrian comes out of Nineveh. Today, a thriving metropolis exists at the ruins of ancient Nineveh. That Metropolis is called Mosul, and is the center of the insurgency in Iraq.

According to Ezekiel 38:2, Gog is "of the land of Magog." Josephus said that Magog founded the Magogites, but that the Greeks called them Scythians. (“Jewish Antiquities,” by Flavius Josephus, Book 1, chapter 6, sec. 123) The Scythians were an ethnic group well known to modern historians. They inhabited the steppe lands of what is now known as the Ukraine, that is, in Russia.

So Gog and "the Assyrian come from entirely different places." They also attack at different times, and direct their artacks toward different locations in Israel. But the scriptural details that prove these things would take too much space for this post.


I have no idea where Walvord and Zurk got the idea that Gomer was ever located in modern day Turkey. The ancient documents locate them in an entirely different region. Biblical Gomer was called Gamer in the Armenian literature, Gammer in the Assyrian literature, and Cimmer in the Greek literature.

The Cimmerians were also an ethnic group well known to modern historians. They were the ancestors of the ethnic group that the Romans called the Gauls, and these were the ancestors of the modern day Celts, who are also called Kelts. This race is the root stock of most of western Europe (except Germany, Italy, and Spain). This also makes them the root stock of most of North America and Australia. So "all the lands of Gomer" includes the heart of western Europe, North America, and Australia.

If you skip the commentaries on prophecy, which all have an agenda to prove, and just study what the historians, who (in such cases as this) have no agenda to prove, you will see that they have concluded exactly what I found in my own personal research.

But Walvord and Zurk were correct in locating ancient Meshech and Tubal in modern day Turkey. But this only applies to their ancient locations. The Turks took over this area in the mid to late eleventh century. As they invaded, they became so famous for their ruthless cruelty that the populationa of these ares fled en masse. Since they were invading from the south, the only direction to go was north, into what is now Russia. This is documented at length in the book “Colophons of Armenian Manuscripts, 1301-1480,” by Avedias K. Sanjian, Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1969. (A colophon is a note added at the beginning or end of a manuscript, telling who copied it. These are of historical interest because they often included comments about the conditions under which the manuscript was copied.)

It is interesting to note that The name Moscow first appears in Russian history about a hundred years later, as an entry for the year 1147 in “The Nikonian Chronicle.”(Nikonian Chronicle,” trans. by Serg A. and Betty Jean Zenkovsky, vol. 2, pg. 27. Princeton: The Kingston Press, 1982.) This chronicle was written in the years 1520-1550. It lists the Meschera as a tribe living along the Oka River, which passes about 60 miles south of Moscow. (Nikonian Chronicle,” trans. by Serg A. and Betty Jean Zenkovsky, vol. 1, pg. 7. Princeton: The Kingston Press, 1982.) “The Russian Primary Chronicle,” written in 1116, lists the tribes in this area, but this name is not included. (“The Russian Primary Chronicle, Laurentian Text,” copied in 1377 from the 1116 text. trans. and edited by Samuel Hazzard Cross and Olgerd P. Sherbowitz-Wetzor, pg. 55. Cambridge,: The Mediaeval Academy of America, 1953.) The absence of any form of the name Meshech from a description of this area made at approximately the time of the Moslem invasion, coupled with its appearance soon after, strongly suggests that Moschi refugees from Cappadocia and Pontus settled there.

Likewise, the name Tubal seems to be the source of the name of the river Tobol, and of Tobolsk, which was founded about the middle of the sixteenth century, about five hundred years after Tubal fled north from Asia Minor.
 
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trumpeter

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The person coming from Nineveh “that imagineth evil against the LORD, a wicked counselor”(v. 11) is the Assyrian and the Antichrist. After Nineveh fell to the Medes and Babylonians, survivors fled to Harrah north of the Euphrates in northern Syria only later to be forced to flee across the Euphrates into northwestern Syria around the city of Aleppo. This information I got from the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia. The descendents of the coming Assyrian Antichrist from Syria came from the ancient city of Nineveh. As the NIV states: From you, O Nineveh, has one come forth who plots evil against the LORD and counsels wickedness.

Continuing in the NIV verse 12a – This is what the LORD says: Although they have allies and are numerous, they will be cut off and pass away.

The numerous allies joining the Antichrist/king of the north/Gog/one from Nineveh is the coalition of nations in Eze 38. They will be cut off when Christ returns for Armageddon.

12b – Although I have afflicted you, O Judah, I will afflict you no more

Judah’s affliction is Jacob’s trouble followed by the Millennium when Judah will be afflicted no more.

Verse 13 – Now I will break their yoke from your neck and tear your shackles away.

The yoke around their neck is the Assyrian Antichrist. Read Isa 14:25.

Good idea not to continue proving your side, I don’t intend to continue and it’s off to church for me.
 
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Biblewriter

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Where did you get the idea that the Assyrian was the Antichrist? there is not even one scripture that even suggests such an idea.

I have summarized what the scriptures actually teach about the Assyrian here:

http://www.christianforums.com/t6571768-4/
 
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Choose Wisely

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The numerous allies joining the Antichrist/king of the north/Gog/one from Nineveh is the coalition of nations in Eze 38. They will be cut off when Christ returns for Armageddon.

Well, Ezekiel 38 happens after the 1000 years so there is a problem with what you are saying.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Likewise, the name Tubal seems to be the source of the name of the river Tobol, and of Tobolsk, which was founded about the middle of the sixteenth century, about five hundred years after Tubal fled north from Asia Minor.
There is a lot of history in Jasher. The true history of the "Sabine wars" is in Jasher, and the descendants of Tubal dwelt in Tuscany, with the Tiber River as border between them and the "Chittim" after the fall of the tower of babel, and when Abraham was in his 90's the following war described in Jasher:

[QUOTEChapter 17

1

And in those days, in the ninety-first year of the life of Abram, the children of Chittim made war with the children of Tubal, for when the Lord had scattered the sons of men upon the face of the earth, the children of Chittim went and embodied themselves in the plain of Canopia, and they built themselves cities there and dwelt by the river Tibreu.
2

And the children of Tubal dwelt in Tuscanah, and their boundaries reached the river Tibreu, and the children of Tubal built a city in Tuscanan, and they called the name Sabinah, after the name of Sabinah son of Tubal their father, and they dwelt there unto this day.
3

And it was at that time the children of Chittim made war with the children of Tubal, and the children of Tubal were smitten before the children of Chittim, and the children of Chittim caused three hundred and seventy men to fall from the children of Tubal.
4

And at that time the children of Tubal swore to the children of Chittim, saying, You shall not intermarry amongst us, and no man shall give his daughter to any of the sons of Chittim.
5

For all the daughters of Tubal were in those days fair, for no women were then found in the whole earth so fair as the daughters of Tubal.
6

And all who delighted in the beauty of women went to the daughters of Tubal and took wives from them, and the sons of men, kings and princes, who greatly delighted in the beauty of women, took wives in those days from the daughters of Tubal.
7

And at the end of three years after the children of Tubal had sworn to the children of Chittim not to give them their daughters for wives, about twenty men of the children of Chittim went to take some of the daughters of Tubal, but they found none.
8

For the children of Tubal kept their oaths not to intermarry with them, and they would not break their oaths.
9

And in the days of harvest the children of Tubal went into their fields to get in their harvest, when the young men of Chittim assembled and went to the city of Sabinah, and each man took a young woman from the daughters of Tubal, and they came to their cities.
10

And the children of Tubal heard of it and they went to make war with them, and they could not prevail over them, for the mountain was exceedingly high from them, and when they saw they could not prevail over them they returned to their land.
11

And at the revolution of the year the children of Tubal went and hired about ten thousand men from those cities that were near them, and they went to war with the children of Chittim.
12

And the children of Tubal went to war with the children of Chittim, to destroy their land and to distress them, and in this engagement the children of Tubal prevailed over the children of Chittim, and the children of Chittim, seeing that they were greatly distressed, lifted up the children which they had had by the daughters of Tubal, upon the wall which had been built, to be before the eyes of the children of Tubal.
13

And the children of Chittim said to them, Have you come to make war with your own sons and daughters, and have we not been considered your flesh and bones from that time till now?
14

And when the children of Tubal heard this they ceased to make war with the children of Chittim, and they went away.
15

And they returned to their cities, and the children of Chittim at that time assembled and built two cities by the sea, and they called one Purtu and the other Ariza.
16

And Abram the son of Terah was then ninety-nine years old.
[/QUOTE]
 
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granpa

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Book of Jasher 10

And the children of Chittim are the Romim who dwell in the valley of Canopia by the river Tibreu.


the romans lived by the river tiber but are said to be descended from the people of troy

chittim might be related to the hittites.
 
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granpa

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  1. And these are the sons of Japheth according to their families, Gomer, Magog, Medai, Javan, Tubal, Meshech and Tiras; these are the children of Japheth according to their generations.
  2. And the children of Gomer, according to their cities, were the Francum (Franks?), who dwell in the land of Franza, by the river Franza, by the river Senah.
  3. And the children of Rephath are the Bartonim, who dwell in the land of Bartonia by the river Ledah, which empties its waters in the great sea Gihon, that is, oceanus.
  4. And the children of Tugarma are ten families, and these are their names: Buzar, Parzunac, Balgar, Elicanum, Ragbib, Tarki, Bid, Zebuc, Ongal and Tilmaz; all these spread and rested in the north and built themselves cities.
  5. And they called their cities after their own names, those are they who abide by the rivers Hithlah and Italac unto this day.
  6. But the families of Angoli, Balgar (Bulgarians?) and Parzunac, they dwell by the great river Dubnee (Danube?); and the names of their cities are also according to their own names.
  7. And the children of Javan are the Javanim (Ionians?) who dwell in the land of Makdonia (macedonia?), and the children of Medaiare are the Orelum that dwell in the land of Curson, and the children of Tubal are those that dwell in the land of Tuskanah (Etruscans?) by the river Pashiah.
  8. And the children of Meshech are the Shibashni and the children of Tiras are Rushash, Cushni, and Ongolis; all these went and built themselves cities; those are the cities that are situate by the sea Jabus by the river Cura, which empties itself in the river Tragan.
  9. And the children of Elishah are the Almanim, and they also went and built themselves cities; those are the cities situate between the mountains of Job and Shibathmo; and of them were the people of Lumbardi (Lombards?)who dwell opposite the mountains of Job and Shibathmo, and they conquered the land of Italia (Italy?) and remained there unto this day.
  10. And the children of Chittim are the Romim (Romans?) who dwell in the valley of Canopia by the river Tibreu (Tiber?).
  11. And the children of Dudonim are those who dwell in the cities of the sea Gihon, in the land of Bordna.
  12. These are the families of the children of Japheth according to their cities and languages, when they were scattered after the tower, and they called their cities after their names and occurrences; and these are the names of all their cities according to their families, which they built in those days after the tower.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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So Gomer is defined as "The Franks" =Germans.
I like reading the histories of the nations in Jesher, and figuring out the modern names -like the Danube River [vs 6]; and the Bulgarians [vs 6]; the Lombards [vs 9]; the Tiber River [vs 10]...
 
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Biblewriter

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[/quote]
This document (if it happens to actually be "the book pf Jasher" mentioned in the Bible, which I doubt) speaks of the time of Abraham, around 2000 B.C. The historical documents I have studied speak of a time around 500 B.C., 1500 years later. My information said nothing about how or when they went to where they were, only that they were in eastern Asia Minor at that time. Ans there are multiple ancient documents that say this.
 
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granpa

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So Gomer is defined as "The Franks" =Germans.
I like reading the histories of the nations in Jesher, and figuring out the modern names -like the Danube River [vs 6]; and the Bulgarians [vs 6]; the Lombards [vs 9]; the Tiber River [vs 10]...

I've edited post 33 to add those in and I've added a few of my own.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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This "Real Book of Jasher"[ Book of Jasher Bible - SpeedBible by johnhurt.com ] dates every event in the lives of the patriarchs, from Adam to the going in of Israel to the promised Land under Joshua; and the histories of the surrounding nations after the fall of the Tower of Babel are dated by Abraham's years, and the histories of the surrounding nations while Israel was in Egypt are dated exactly by the number of years Israel had been in Egypt, which covers 210 years [using the Masoretic text, one can add the years and get 215 years in Egypt, but I'll go with the Jasher record on that]. Also, I believe Moses is the author of this real book of Jasher and is using the writings of the patriarchs and the histories he was privy to as a prince in Egypt, of the nations; for when he writes the histories he states often that "they/it are/is there ...unto this day...", which "day" is the time frame it is being written, in the forty years journey in the wilderness Moses redacts the histories for the Pentateuch, and they are redacted themselves from the writings of the Patriarchs [and manuscripts in the DSS prove that to be so], but his own history is fully accounted for in Jasher; though things written in Jasher about his history are referred to in the Pentateuch, without re-writing it.



The tower fell in Abraham's 49th year, and reading Jasher, we discover that Abraham was born to Terah 75 years before Ussher deduced him to be, because it was not spelled out clearly in the Masoretic text because "behold, it is written in the Book of Jasher".
We also see that these areas were settled by the tribes much earlier than historians, without Jasher, have guessed.

Also, we can learn lots of things in Jasher that most historians are clueless about, and that makes for interesting reading for a "history of the world enthusiast".
 
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yeshuasavedme

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I've edited post 33 to add those in and I've added a few of my own.

I didn't have time, so good job.
There are more -later.
The "rules" for consonant letters switching places is found in Isaac Mozeson's dictionary, "The Word", and helps to "see" the names we now recognize in the old writings.
Interesting history to me is that Zepho, Esau's grandson, ruled as king of Italy for 50 years! -which we read in Jasher.

Another chapter of interest for historical purposes is chapter 60 -before Zepho ruled Italy:
 
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yeshuasavedme

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