Who is correct and who should we obey

[pshun2404]

The apostle Paul exhorts the believers: “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;” (I Tim. 2:5); “he is the mediator of the new testament.” (Heb. 9:15); “Jesus the mediator of the new covenant,” (Heb. 12:24); “by himself purged our sins” (Heb. 1:3). Jesus Christ himself said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” (John 14:6). Nowhere in the scriptures is there a single example of the disciples or the apostles praying to Mary or any other deceased saint. Jesus said,“I am the door of the sheep.” And, “He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.” (John 10:1,7).

Pope Leo XIII, in 1891 - “No one can approach Christ except through His mother.”

The Catechism, in the Sunday Missal (Catholic Catechism) says, “My salvation depends on Mary's mediation and union with Christ, because of her exalted position as Mediatrix of all grace.”

Vatican II, said, “Mary's intercession continues to win for us the gift of eternal salvation.”

Pope John Paul II “Membership in the Militia means complete dedication to the Kingdom of God and to the salvation of souls through Mary Immaculate.”

Which is the truth?

 

[concretecamper]

The apostle Paul exhorts the believers: “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;” (I Tim. 2:5); “he is the mediator of the new testament.” (Heb. 9:15); “Jesus the mediator of the new covenant,” (Heb. 12:24); “by himself purged our sins” (Heb. 1:3). Jesus Christ himself said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” (John 14:6). Nowhere in the scriptures is there a single example of the disciples or the apostles praying to Mary or any other deceased saint. Jesus said,“I am the door of the sheep.” And, “He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.” (John 10:1,7).

Pope Leo XIII, in 1891 - “No one can approach Christ except through His mother.”

The Catechism, in the Sunday Missal (Catholic Catechism) says, “My salvation depends on Mary's mediation and union with Christ, because of her exalted position as Mediatrix of all grace.”

Vatican II, said, “Mary's intercession continues to win for us the gift of eternal salvation.”

Pope John Paul II “Membership in the Militia means complete dedication to the Kingdom of God and to the salvation of souls through Mary Immaculate.”

Which is the truth?

I do not have time right now....but there is no contradiction in anything you have stated. The only contradiction comes in when people put their own meanings to the statements you wrote....tomorrow morning unless someone beats me to it.

 

[pshun2404]

Looking forward to it...

 

[concretecamper]

The apostle Paul exhorts the believers: “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;” (I Tim. 2:5);
AGREED

“He is the mediator of the new testament.” (Heb. 9:15);
AGREED

“Jesus the mediator of the new covenant,” (Heb. 12:24);
AGREED

“By himself purged our sins” (Heb. 1:3).
AGREED

Jesus Christ himself said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me.” (John 14:6).
AGREED

Nowhere in the scriptures is there a single example of the disciples or the apostles praying to Mary or any other deceased saint. Jesus said, “I am the door of the sheep.” And, “He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.” (John 10:1, 7).

Scripture says, The Catholic Church is the Body of Christ with Christ as the head and the members as His Body. Do we stop becoming members of His Body when we die? No. Show me a bible verse that says we are no longer members of Christ’s Body when we die. The great apostle Paul in Col. 1:24 says: “Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church”. From this verse St. Chrysostom observes that Jesus Christ loves us so much, that he is not content merely to suffer in his own person, but he wishes also to suffer in his members; and thus we fill up what is wanting of the sufferings of Christ. He says “The wisdom, the will, the justice of Jesus Christ, requireth and ordaineth that his body and members should be companions of his sufferings, as they expect to be companions of his glory; that so suffering with him, and after his example, they may apply to their own wants and to the necessities of others the merits and satisfaction of Jesus Christ, which application is what is wanting, and what we are permitted to supply by the sacraments and sacrifice of the new law.” The Catholic Church correctly teaches that we are all One Body. Injury and insult to any member negatively affects the body. On the contrast, sufferings, faith, merits when united to the suffering of Christ have a positive effect on the individual and the entire Body of Christ. My faith can have a positive impact on others in Christ’s Body. Scripture says in Mark 2:5: “And when Jesus saw their faith, he saith to the sick of the palsy: Son, thy sins are forgiven thee.” Jesus applied the faith of the man’s friends and forgave the man’s sins. WOW. Praise Jesus. So, it is clear from scripture that others faith and sufferings have efficacious effect for those in The Church.


Before I address the next issues, I need to set some groundwork. Let me go back to the Body of Christ, which is the Catholic Church. Mary is the Mother of Jesus. This makes Mary the Mother of God (Elizabeth call Mary “The Mother of My Lord”). The Church has always recognized this. If Mary is the Mother of Christ, which is the head of the Church, then is can be safely said that Mary is the Mother of the Church. To say otherwise would be preposterous. The Church also recognizes through scripture that Jesus and Mary are the New Adam and New Eve. Just as sin entered into the world though Adam and Eve, salvation was given through Jesus and Mary. Mary’s “fiat” permitted the Son of God to come into the world and save men from their sins. So, it can be said that salvation entered the world though Mary. But as Catholics we believe everything good flows from Christ as the Church says “Mary’s role in the Church is inseparable from her union with Christ and flows directly from it. This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ’s virginal conception up to his death. The Church believes we are saved through Grace. More on Grace from the CCC: Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved. However, according to the Lord’s words — “Thus you will know them by their fruits”—reflection on God’s blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty. A pleasing illustration of this attitude is found in the reply of St. Joan of Arc to a question posed as a trap by her ecclesiastical judges: “Asked if she knew that she was in God’s grace, she replied: ‘If I am not, may it please God to put me in it; if I am, may it please God to keep me there.” Sanctifying grace is a habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God’s call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God’s interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification. Grace flows through His Church and the Sacraments. Jesus Christ gave us the Church as the exclusive means by which we become united to Him through the sacraments, which allow us to grow in holiness, and give us the best chance for salvation. Those outside the Church are, objectively speaking, are in a spiritually deficient condition, although they can still be saved by Christ. But the Church gives us the totality of the means of salvation through Christ and His Eucharistic sacrifice, which the Church celebrates from the rising of the sun to its setting. The Church is the sacrament of salvation. The Eucharist is the greatest gift God has given to us this side of heaven - because it is Jesus Christ Himself. It is only in the Church where we eat His body and drink His blood as Jesus commanded us. You cannot receive these sacraments outside the Church where there is no valid priesthood.


Pope Leo XIII, in 1891 - “No one can approach Christ except through His mother.”

No one can know Christ apart from His Church and Mary is the Mother of the Church. If you reject Mary as the Mother of the Church, you do not belong to the Church.

The Catechism, in the Sunday Missal (Catholic Catechism) says, “My salvation depends on Mary's mediation and union with Christ, because of her exalted position as Mediatrix of all grace.”

The New Adam and the perfect cooperation of the New Eve brought salvation to the world. The Church is the treasury of all Grace won for us by Christ through His sacrifice. Mary is the Mother of the Church. No Church, no Mary, No Jesus.


Pope John Paul II “Membership in the Militia means complete dedication to the Kingdom of God and to the salvation of souls through Mary Immaculate.”

This is similar to Pope Leo XIII quote. No Church, no Mary, no Jesus


I realize that all non catholic christians will disagree. That is because they are not fully incorporated into the Body of Christ. Through actual grace, God is prompting you to become members of the Body of Christ. Some will respond to God’s grace favorably and accept the gift God has given us and some will reject it and stay outside the Church which Christ promised to be with until the end of time.

 

[pshun2404]

Scripture says, The Catholic Church is the Body of Christ with Christ as the head and the members as His Body.

All I have ever read (even in the Douey Rheims) says “the church” is the body of Christ, and He is the head. The church is obviously all believers born from above. Nothing says the catholic church unless you mean the universal body of believers (but surely not just the local body in Rome).

Let me go back to the Body of Christ, which is the Catholic Church.

Yes but not only in Rome. (this really has nothing to do with the OP by the way)

Mary is the Mother of Jesus. This makes Mary the Mother of God.

Indeed! But not the progenitor of the eternal Deity, she was the mother of God incarnate.

If Mary is the Mother of Christ, which is the head of the Church, then is can be safely said that Mary is the Mother of the Church. To say otherwise would be preposterous.

One could say this but the scriptures do not. The conclusion does not follow….His physical body crucified on the cross has been raised and glorified…we will not be glorified until He returns. She was not the mother of the eternal Son (only after He became incarnate). The Son (Word) was God before Mary was even conceived, or her mother, or HER mother, or hers, even before Eve.

Mary’s “fiat” permitted the Son of God to come into the world and save men from their sins.

“fiat” is not in the scriptures…and though it is true He came into the world though her, she has no part in saving anyone, besides that was of God, according to His plan, before humankind (which includes the blessed virgin) was even brought into existence. Mary assumed no such glory and thus we should not so embarrass her by pointing to her as some great one…a fiat is a decree and Mary’s decree was to do all according to His word…and that is what you also should do?

For example…

Irenaeus of Lyons (160 A.D.) “Against Heresies” 3.1.1, p. 414.
"We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith."

Clement of Alexandria (CA. 150 – 215), Stromata, Book VII, Chapter 16
“But those who are ready to toil in the most excellent pursuits, will not desist from the search after truth, till they get the demonstration from Scripture themselves.”

Tertullian (CA. 155 – 220)
In refuting a heresy of Docetism (denying doctrine of incarnation), Tertullian writes, “But there is no evidence of this, because Scripture says nothing.” Furthermore, he writes, “If it is nowhere written, then let it fear the woe which impends on all who add or take away from the written word.”

Hippolytus (CA. 170 – 236)
Against the Heresy of One Noetus
“There is, brethren, one God, the knowledge of whom we gain from the Holy Scripture, and from no other source. . . . Whatever things, then, the Holy Scriptures declare, at these let us look; and whatsoever things they teach, these let us learn; and the Father will our belief to be, let us believe . . . Not according to our own will, nor according to our own mind, nor yet as using violently those things which are given by God, but even as He has chosen to teach them by the Holy Scripture, so let us discern them.”

Basil of Jerusalem
Therefore let God-inspired Scripture decide between us; and on whichever side be found doctrines in harmony with the word of God, in favor of that side will be cast the vote of truth."

Augustine (354 – 430) On the Good of Widowhood
“What more can I teach you, than what we read in the Apostle? For holy Scripture setteth a rule to our teaching, that we dare not “be wise more than it behoveth to be wise.”

Basil the Great (368 A.D.) Homily IX:I
The words are to be understood by their plain meaning, not allegorized.
To interpret Scripture otherwise is to put ourselves above God, the Holy Spirit, who inspired its writing.

‘It is this which those seem to me not to have understood, who, giving themselves up to the distorted meaning of allegory, have undertaken to give a majesty of their own invention to Scripture. It is to believe themselves wiser than the Holy Spirit, and to bring forth their own ideas under a pretext of exegesis. Let us hear Scripture as it has been written.’

Gregory of Nyssa (394 A.D)
"As for ourselves, if the Gentile philosophy, which deals methodically with all these points, were really adequate for a demonstration, it would certainly be superfluous to add a discussion on the soul to those speculations. But while the latter proceeded, on the subject of the soul, as far in the direction of supposed consequences as the thinker pleased, we are not entitled to such license (I mean that of affirming what we please), we however make the Holy Scriptures the rule and the measure of every tenet; we necessarily fix our eyes upon that, and approve that alone which may be made to harmonize with the intention of those writings."

Cyril of Jerusalem (450 A.D.)
"This seal have thou ever on thy mind...shall hereafter be set forth according to our power, with Scripture proofs. For concerning the divine and sacred Mysteries of the Faith, we ought not to deliver even the most casual remark without the Holy Scriptures: nor be drawn aside by mere probabilities and the artifices of argument. Do not then believe me because I tell thee these things, unless thou receive from the Holy Scriptures the proof of what is set forth: for this salvation, which is of our faith, is not by ingenious reasoning, but by proof from the Holy Scriptures."

So you see "the Church" wherever it was (not just in Rome) seemed very determined to test everything by Scripture. So where any doctrine could not be demonstrated by Scripture it was to be rejected. This was the belief held by the entire catholic (universal) church.

Jesus Christ gave us the Church as the exclusive means by which we become united to Him through the sacraments

This thru being born from above places us into the actual church (called out body)…this has happened to millions through individuals and sometimes by God’s own direct intervention, by the hearing of the word and the conviction of the Holy Spirit as the scriptures have taught…

Obviously all the leaders taught the true Apostolic tradition made the scriptures the final word in all matters of faith and doctrine, therefore, the Roman Catholic church is NOT the exclusive means by any means. Though there are many saved persons within this branch there were also many baptized devils baptized by devils of all sorts for hundreds of years (you SHALL know them by their fruits)…murderers, torturers, fornicators, greedy, power mongers, also pederasty was very common even as far back as John the VI and publicly revealed among the higher clergy in the late 15th century (notwithstanding the many fine truly blessed children of God in this part of the field – tares among the wheat)…

The Church is the sacrament of salvation.

Can you show this in the scriptures like all the fathers demanded?

…where there is no valid priesthood...

Neither Christ nor the Apostles established a clerical priesthood for the New Covenant church (His body of believers)…we are each priests and kings…the Overseer (translated Bishop, or Pastor, which is fine) was a local leader appointed by the elders in that local church (and this remained the process for hundreds of years)…no priests in fancy robes and the Bishop was the servant of all not an authority figure (though in those times emulating them was still safe as they were NOT murderers, torturers, nor did they practice buying their positions, fornicating on the side, having little boys as sexual objects, or lording it over their flocks)

No one can know Christ apart from His Church and Mary is the Mother of the Church

Just show me from this the scriptures as all the fathers demanded (human reasoning is faulty no matter who told you you must believe it). One can certainly come to know Christ by the Spirit and the word (as the scriptures and the fathers both teach)….you keep speaking of the Church but in your head you mean the Roman “Church” but that is no true…people coming to Christ become part of the Church (Roman or otherwise).

If you reject Mary as the Mother of the Church, you do not belong to the Church.

Again you would have to demonstrate this from the scriptures just as those taught by the Apostles and their immediate students passed on (true apostolic tradition)…this is a man-made dogma not even believed by any…it is written “Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him”. That is the seal of God’s ownership and the mark that determines if we “belong to the Church”. We are to obey Christ not Mary, who also obeyed Him and always will obey Him…

The Church is the treasury of all Grace won for us by Christ through His sacrifice.

Boy…now you are bordering on heresy…very unorthodox to say the least…Grace is and always was in the hand and heart of God to give to whomsoever He pleases (to all those who will faithe…that is BELIEVING GOD, not men, merely believing in God, the devils believe in God and tremble…

In His love

Paul

 

[concretecamper]

I was glad to see that you referenced the Church Fathers. They provide a unique insight into the early Church. Hundereds of years before the New Testament was even thought of begining compiled, these Fathers of the Church advanced the Kingdom of God quicker that any other time in history. And guess what, they did it without a Bible!!! You provided many quotes from Church Fathers regarding the scriptures. What you fail to realize is a history and timeline. Did you know that The Council of Laodicea c. 360 produced the first list of books similiar to today's canon? This presents a problem with your thought process. What were the Fathers refering to when they referenced scripture? They could not have been refering to the bible. Maybe they were referring to the OT canon. The first attept at the OT canon was c. 170. This is a similiar problem protestants run into with St. Paul when he say all scripture is profitable etc, etc, ect. The scripture Paul is referring to is the Torah not the bible. Be that as it may, despite your error, I am sure the Church Fathers would exhort christians to adhere to the scriptures as defined by the Council of Hippo in 393. But you still have a problem. How was the New Testament compiled? If I am to use scripture for everything as you suggest, I cannot construct a New Testament. Luckily the Catholic Church had Tradtion as a measuring stick to see what books belonged in the Bible.


Let me address you issues. If you do not mind, rather than typing all this and casuing cramps in my fingers, I have copied and pasted much from my collection of documents gathered over the years.

The Church is visible, One, Holy, Catholic, Apostalic (Scriptural proof)

Matt. 5:14 - Jesus says a city set on a hill cannot be hidden, and this is in reference to the Church. The Church is not an invisible, ethereal, atmospheric presence, but a single, visible and universal body through the Eucharist. The Church is an extension of the Incarnation.

Matt. 12:25; Mark 3:25; Luke 11:17 - Jesus says a kingdom divided against itself is laid waste and will not stand. This describes Protestantism and the many thousands of denominations that continue to multiply each year.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus says, "I will build my 'Church' (not churches)." There is only one Church built upon one Rock with one teaching authority, not many different denominations, built upon various pastoral opinions and suggestions.

Matt. 16:19; 18:18 - Jesus gave the apostles binding and loosing authority. But this authority requires a visible Church because "binding and loosing" are visible acts. The Church cannot be invisible, or it cannot bind and loose.

John 10:16 - Jesus says there must only be one flock and one shepherd. This cannot mean many denominations and many pastors, all teaching different doctrines. Those outside the fold must be brought into the Church.

John 17:11,21,23 - Jesus prays that His followers may be perfectly one as He is one with the Father. Jesus' oneness with the Father is perfect. It can never be less. Thus, the oneness Jesus prays for cannot mean the varied divisions of Christianity that have resulted since the Protestant reformation. There is perfect oneness only in the Catholic Church.

John 17:9-26 - Jesus' prayer, of course, is perfectly effective, as evidenced by the miraculous unity of the Catholic Church during her 2,000 year history.

John 17:21 - Jesus states that the visible unity of the Church would be a sign that He was sent by God. This is an extremely important verse. Jesus tells us that the unity of the Church is what bears witness to Him and the reality of who He is and what He came to do for us. There is only one Church that is universally united, and that is the Catholic Church. Only the unity of the Catholic Church truly bears witness to the reality that Jesus Christ was sent by the Father.

The Church is Visible, One, Holy, Catholic, Apostalic (Church Fathers proof)

“Those, therefore, who desert the preaching of the Church, call in question the knowledge of the holy presbyters…It behooves us, therefore, to avoid their doctrines, and to take careful heed lest we suffer any injury from them; but to flee to the Church, and be brought up in her bosom, and be nourished with the Lord's Scriptures. For the Church has been planted as a garden (paradisus) in this world; therefore says the Spirit of God, 'Thou mayest freely eat from every tree of the garden,' that is, Eat ye from every Scripture of the Lord; but ye shall not eat with an uplifted mind, nor touch any heretical discord." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 5:20 (A.D. 180).

"You may learn, if you will, the crowning wisdom of the all-holy Shepherd and Instructor, of the omnipotent and paternal Word, when He figuratively represents Himself as the Shepherd of the sheep…Such are the promises of the good Shepherd. Feed us, the children, as sheep. Yea, Master, fill us with righteousness, Thine own pasture; yea, O Instructor, feed us on Thy holy mountain the Church, which towers aloft, which is above the clouds, which touches heaven." Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor, I:9 (A.D. 202).

"We are not to give heed to those who say, Behold here is Christ, but show him not in the Church, which is filled with brightness from the East even unto the West; which is filled with true light; is the 'pillar and ground of truth'; in which, as a whole, is the whole advent of the Son of Man, who saith to all men throughout the universe, 'Behold, I am with you all the days of life even unto the consumption of the world.'" Origen, Commentary on Matthew, Tract 30 (A.D. 244).

"The spouse of Christ cannot be adulterous; she is uncorrupted and pure. She knows one home; she guards with chaste modesty the sanctity of one couch. She keeps us for God. She appoints the sons whom she has born for the kingdom. Whoever is separated from the Church and is joined to an adulteress, is separated from the promises of the Church; nor can he who forsakes the Church of Christ attain to the rewards of Christ. He is a stranger; he is profane; he is an enemy. He can no longer have God for his Father, who has not the Church for his mother. If anyone could escape who was outside the ark of Noah, then he also may escape who shall be outside of the Church. The Lord warns, saying, 'He who is not with me is against me, and he who gathereth not with me scattereth.' Cyprian, On Unity, 6 (A.D. 251).

[FONT='Calibri','sans-serif']"'A city built upon a mountain cannot be hid' The light, or lamp of Christ, is not now to be hidden under a bushel, nor to be concealed by any covering of the synagogue, but, hung on the wood of the Passion, it will give an everlasting light to those that dwell in the church. He also admonishes the apostles to shine with like splendour, that by the admiration of their deeds, praise may be given to God." Hilary of Poitiers, Commentary on Matthew, 5:13 (A.D. 355). [/font]

Church Fathers on Mary

Remember, the Bible is not even a thought in anyone's mind. The early Church Fathers lived by Tradition and the word passed down from generation to generation. Let's see what the Fathers say about Mary.
St. Justin Martyr (d.165), (The Son of God) became man through the Virgin that the disobedience caused by the serpent might be destroyed in the same way in which it had originated. For Eve, while a virgin incorrupt, conceived the word which proceeded from the serpent, and brought forth disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary was filled with faith and joy when the Angel Gabriel told her the glad tidings.... And through her was he born…. (3)

St. Irenaeus of Lyon (d.202), Just as Eve, wife of Adam, yet still a virgin, became by her disobedience the cause of death for herself and the whole human race, so Mary, too, espoused yet a Virgin, became by her obedience the cause of salvation for herself and the whole human race.... And so it was that the knot of Eve's disobedience was loosed by Mary's obedience. For what the virgin Eve bound fast by her refusal to believe, this the Virgin Mary unbound by her belief. (4)

St. Ambrose (d.397): It was through a man and woman that flesh was cast from Paradise; it was through a virgin that flesh was linked to God....Eve is called mother of the human race, but Mary Mother of salvation. (5)

St. Jerome (d.420) "death through Eve, life through Mary." (6)

The most complete ancient prayer to the Blessed Mother historically preserved is the Sub Tuum Praesidium (250 A.D.):

We fly to your patronage,
O holy Mother of God,
despise not our petitions
in our necessities,
but deliver us from all dangers.
O ever glorious and blessed Virgin.
​

Scripture on Mary

To preserve space, let's look at Mary as the Ark of the New Convenant. As you knoww, the OT pre figures the New Testament. So, what comparisons can we draw? Remember how the Ark was reverenced by the Jews. Does Mary deserve any less reverence?

Exodus 25:11-21 - the ark of the Old Covenant was made of the purest gold for God's Word. Mary is the ark of the New Covenant and is the purest vessel for the Word of God made flesh.

2 Sam. 6:7 - the Ark is so holy and pure that when Uzzah touched it, the Lord slew him. This shows us that the Ark is undefiled. Mary the Ark of the New Covenant is even more immaculate and undefiled, spared by God from original sin so that she could bear His eternal Word in her womb.

1 Chron. 13:9-10 - this is another account of Uzzah and the Ark. For God to dwell within Mary the Ark, Mary had to be conceived without sin. For Protestants to argue otherwise would be to say that God would let the finger of Satan touch His Son made flesh. This is incomprehensible.
1 Chron. 15 and 16 - these verses show the awesome reverence the Jews had for the Ark - veneration, vestments, songs, harps, lyres, cymbals, trumpets.

Luke 1:39 / 2 Sam. 6:2 - Luke's conspicuous comparison's between Mary and the Ark described by Samuel underscores the reality of Mary as the undefiled and immaculate Ark of the New Covenant. In these verses, Mary (the Ark) arose and went / David arose and went to the Ark. There is a clear parallel between the Ark of the Old and the Ark of the New Covenant.

Luke 1:41 / 2 Sam. 6:16 - John the Baptist / King David leap for joy before Mary / Ark. So should we leap for joy before Mary the immaculate Ark of the Word made flesh.

Luke 1:43 / 2 Sam. 6:9 - How can the Mother / Ark of the Lord come to me? It is a holy privilege. Our Mother wants to come to us and lead us to Jesus.

Luke 1:56 / 2 Sam. 6:11 and 1 Chron. 13:14 - Mary / the Ark remained in the house for about three months.

Rev 11:19 - at this point in history, the Ark of the Old Covenant was not seen for six centuries (see 2 Macc. 2:7), and now it is finally seen in heaven. The Jewish people would have been absolutely amazed at this. However, John immediately passes over this fact and describes the "woman" clothed with the sun in Rev. 12:1. John is emphasizing that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant and who, like the Old ark, is now worthy of veneration and praise. Also remember that Rev. 11:19 and Rev. 12:1 are tied together because there was no chapter and verse at the time these texts were written.

Rev 12:1 - the "woman" that John is describing is Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. Just as the moon reflects the light of the sun, so Mary, with the moon under her feet, reflects the glory of the Sun of Justice, Jesus Christ.


So, it is clear from the Early Church Father and from Scripture, that the Church is Visible, One, Universal and Holy. If that is the case, and it was started by Christ, woe to those who through their own fault reject the Church.

It is also clear from scripture and the Early Church Fathers that Mary occupies a unique role and place in God's plan for slavation.

I am sure I missed a bunch of objections, but despite the copy/paste trick, my fingers are tired.

God Bless

 

[pshun2404]

And guess what, they did it without a Bible!!!

Sorry brother but you have been misled! It is true it may not have been compiled, but in Against Heresies alone I captured quotations (the same books accepted as scripture by all) from Matt., Mk., Lk., Jn., Acts, Rom., 1 and 2 Corinth, Gal., Eph., Col., Phil. 1 and 2 Thess, 1 Tim, 1 Pet., and Revelations (called the Apocalypse of course)....about 19 pages in all just from Iranaeus...so the Holy Scriptures already existed and were accepted as the true word of God before the Church compiled them into collections.

As for the Hymn, it was only in use by the Egyptians at the time and did not become part of the church proper until centuries later...remember, many heresies (and I am not saying this is one) and distorted texts came out of the land of the Copts...but I liked you Ambrose quote....where did it come from (give me the source for convenience sake...I loved reading Ambrose as well as all the ante-Nicene fathers)?

Now I definitely believe in the one holy (set apart by God) catholic (meaning universal) apostolic (as the Apostles taught to their immediate appointed bishops and that they taught to the 2nd generation students) and I definitely believe that Mary mother of God (with a small m in mother as the fathers referred) is an appropriate title (not agreeing with all your scriptural interpretations...like Revelations 12)...but that aside this has nothing to do with those who place her above or before Christ (and I do not say that is official Roman Catholic doctrine though sadly many followers who make this error are never corrected by their leaders)...

 

[concretecamper]

And guess what, they did it without a Bible!!!

Sorry brother but you have been misled! It is true it may not have been compiled, but in Against Heresies alone I captured quotations (the same books accepted as scripture by all) from Matt., Mk., Lk., Jn., Acts, Rom., 1 and 2 Corinth, Gal., Eph., Col., Phil. 1 and 2 Thess, 1 Tim, 1 Pet., and Revelations (called the Apocalypse of course)....about 19 pages in all just from Iranaeus...so the Holy Scriptures already existed and were accepted as the true word of God before the Church compiled them into collections.

As for the Hymn, it was only in use by the Egyptians at the time and did not become part of the church proper until centuries later...remember, many heresies (and I am not saying this is one) and distorted texts came out of the land of the Copts...but I liked you Ambrose quote....where did it come from (give me the source for convenience sake...I loved reading Ambrose as well as all the ante-Nicene fathers)?

Now I definitely believe in the one holy (set apart by God) catholic (meaning universal) apostolic (as the Apostles taught to their immediate appointed bishops and that they taught to the 2nd generation students) and I definitely believe that Mary mother of God (with a small m in mother as the fathers referred) is an appropriate title (not agreeing with all your scriptural interpretations...like Revelations 12)...but that aside this has nothing to do with those who place her above or before Christ (and I do not say that is official Roman Catholic doctrine though sadly many followers who make this error are never corrected by their leaders)...

First...In Acts, when the Apostle were adding so many.....and when Paul went to the gentiles...there were wrtings for them to draw on???

Second...the point is that devotion to Mary was part of the early Church and was not considered heresy since it continues to this time.

Third...So the Church taught the 2nd generation? Who taught the 3rd...4th...5th...and so on? Also, I never once, nor did any Church Father place Mary above or even close to Christ. This is a mis-characterzation that many protestants have to get over. Mary is a creature created by God...a rather immaculate one...but none the less a creation of God's.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/340963.htm

God Bless

 

[pshun2404]

First...In Acts, when the Apostle were adding so many.....and when Paul went to the gentiles...there were writings for them to draw on???

Yes indeed, we call them the Old Testament, and Jesus called them the Law and the Prophets, and in John 17:17 says they are the truth (All of Christ and all the doctrines from the Apostles can be taught and preached from the Law, the Psalms, and the Prophets…


Second...the point is that devotion to Mary was part of the early Church and was not considered heresy since it continues to this time.

Not being a protestant as usually defined by Roman Catholics I hold more of an historically orthodox position. I would not use the word “devotion” as religiously used by most Roman Catholics but as love and affection toward her for her being the chosen vessel of God I totally get the adoration (I love her as well) but would be careful to assign godesslike characteristics to her as she is just a human being. And for many devotion to Mary does in fact mean that she is the primary or first focal point of accessing Jesus (this is a misnomer) but the scriptures and the fathers tell us we can access Jesus directly (He alone is the mediator) and the Father through Him. Do as Mary (let her be our example) and do according to God’s word and do all that Jesus tells us to do (anything less is disobeying her recommendations and practice).


Third...So the Church taught the 2nd generation?

Jesus taught the Apostles and the Apostles taught the initial leaders….

Who taught the 3rd...4th...5th...and so on?

Yes of course it was the church (the apostolically sound who confirmed all they wrote and taught by the scriptures who declare all that cannot be defended therefrom should not be required) who are the universal body of believers (those genuinely born from above, wherever the local body, started by which ever Apostle).

Also, I never once, nor did any Church Father place Mary above or even close to Christ. This is a mis-characterzation that many protestants have to get over. Mary is a creature created by God...a rather immaculate one...but none the less a creation of God's


And I would agree here as well (no early father taught this), though I do not believe Mary was immaculately conceived. Even if filled with the Holy Spirit since the womb (filled with grace) that would not mean an immaculate conception as Roman Catholic parishioners understand that concept. The only immaculate conception in history was Christ and this does NOT necessitate that His mother also be immaculately conceived (or else her mom would also have to have been so conceived and her mom before her ad nauseum ad infinitum)…it was not necessary that Mary not be subject to the effect of the fall (the first or original sin) which was death…in fact she eventually died (Christ did not). We would obviously also disagree on how we define “original sin” as I would be more in line with the Orthodox here.

But I am trying not to get away from the OP. Which should we obey? I showed you what Mary said and what the early fathers said…do we, as Mary said and did, do according to His word? Or as the fathers said, only what can be confirmed in the Holy Scriptures? Or not?

In His love

Paul

 

[concretecamper]

But I am trying not to get away from the OP. Which should we obey? I showed you what Mary said and what the early fathers said…do we, as Mary said and did, do according to His word? Or as the fathers said, only what can be confirmed in the Holy Scriptures? Or not?

Paul

We should obey the Church, because under guidence of the Church, the Scriptures and Traditions are kept pure and free from error and innovation. By obeying the Church you are in fact obeying the true meaning of Scripture.

Like I said in my original post...there is no contradiction. God is the author of salvation. Jesus is our Savior. It seems all we are talking about is how God chooses to trasmit His grace and how He choose to work.

God Bless

 

[pshun2404]

We should obey the Church, because under guidence of the Church, the Scriptures and Traditions are kept pure and free from error and innovation. By obeying the Church you are in fact obeying the true meaning of Scripture.


but not where the Church does not obey the word (according to Mary and the fathers)...everyone who came to Christ either came to Him directly or through association with or response to one of the Apostles, the deacons, and other followers (of which His mother was one), etc., no one, not once, ever comes to salvation in Christ through Mary, via Mary, or as a result of devotion to Mary, neither in the scriptures (which she and the fathers point us to) or on the teaching of the early fathers...just the truth my brother, just the truth...I love my Lord's mother and she is the best of all examples a follower could emulate...let it be according to thy word Lord.

In His love

Paul

 

[concretecamper]

We should obey the Church, because under guidence of the Church, the Scriptures and Traditions are kept pure and free from error and innovation. By obeying the Church you are in fact obeying the true meaning of Scripture.


but not where the Church does not obey the word (according to Mary and the fathers)...

Never has happened. Do you have an example?

 

[pshun2404]

Sure how about when the RCC said it was right and good and appropriate for them to torture and kill Anabaptists...would Jesus have done such a thing, or Mary, or the Apostles? Where do they think they got precedence and authority to act in this way?

 

[concretecamper]

Sure how about when the RCC said it was right and good and appropriate for them to torture and kill Anabaptists...would Jesus have done such a thing, or Mary, or the Apostles? Where do they think they got precedence and authority to act in this way?

I was hoping for doctrine or such rather than civil examples. Throughout history, there have been scoundrels leading the Church...but it never fell into error which is the point I was trying to make.

This example must be in some sort of playbook because it comes up as an example frequently.

For argument sake, yield to me that the RCC is the true Church Christ started. The Anabaptist movement was in directly opposed to Church teachings such as Baptism, Church and Sacraments, stuff people lose their salvation over....assuming you believe the teaching of the Catholic Church. So the risk is....leave this movement go unchecked and risk millions of souls? I am not saying I 100% agree with the reaction....but it is what it was.

I might add, the protestants where right there with the Catholics, but that really has no bearing on your question or my answer.

 

[pshun2404]

I was hoping for doctrine or such rather than civil examples. Throughout history, there have been scoundrels leading the Church...but it never fell into error which is the point I was trying to make.

Yes, I would have also indicated the Geneva Calvinists (for example) but the trend we were on was regarding the RC church and the idea that following the church IS following Christ and I said except where they are disobedient. I mean why should the young boys of Rome have felt if they did not obey their pederastic Bishops around 1492 that they would go to hell. But okay...so lets take your example...

For argument sake, yield to me that the RCC is the true Church Christ started.

Sorry cannot do that. It was a church started by the Apostles that Christ sent out (there were a number of them), but not THE church. The church (Ekklesia) Christ started was fulfilled Judaism, in Jerusalem, which was the seed to plant the body of ALL those born from above in and of every nation (ethnicity).

 

[concretecamper]

I was hoping for doctrine or such rather than civil examples. Throughout history, there have been scoundrels leading the Church...but it never fell into error which is the point I was trying to make.

Yes, I would have also indicated the Geneva Calvinists (for example) but the trend we were on was regarding the RC church and the idea that following the church IS following Christ and I said except where they are disobedient. I mean why should the young boys of Rome have felt if they did not obey their pederastic Bishops around 1492 that they would go to hell. But okay...so lets take your example...

For argument sake, yield to me that the RCC is the true Church Christ started.

Sorry cannot do that. It was a church started by the Apostles that Christ sent out (there were a number of them), but not THE church. The church (Ekklesia) Christ started was fulfilled Judaism, in Jerusalem, which was the seed to plant the body of ALL those born from above in and of every nation (ethnicity).

You seem to be stuck on bad cathloics. I can understand that since the Church is littered with humans who are imperfect. It is an easy target. I have already in a sense stipulated to this fact.

But despite this....the Church remains...it has not changed it's faith since the beginning...it is the only Christian faith who has not caved to secular pressures. Jesus did keep His promise....I will be with you till the end of te age!

I agree, the Church was planted in Jerusulam and has grown as say......a mustard seed. The Church did go forth to all the nations....praise Jesus!

 

[pshun2404]

Definitely not stuck on bad Roman Catholics...too many now and since then are my brothers and sisters in Christ...