Who is better?

Valo said:

Who is better?

The Christian that does good in order to buy themselves into Heaven because a book told them.

OR

The Atheist that does good because it is the right thing to do by their own morals because they like to help people.


I'm thinking that its the Athiest because no one told them to do good, they won't get anything out of it. Maybe a warm fuzzy feeling that they've helped someone and made a friend but they're not trying to buy God's graces with it.

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There are no selfless acts. Everyone acts according to their belief (correct or otherwise) of furthering pleasure and avioding pain.
Many theologist don't believe in Hell. And some Christians don't believe in a Heaven. Even Jeshua ben Joseph (Jesus) said "Heaven is at hand" which is also what Siddartha Gautama (Budda) said in regards to making the most of this wonderful and blessed life.
If someone is "evil" they will reap what they sow on earth, just as the just will most often reap good. But that's not a 'fool' proof system, because it rains on the just and the wicked.

There is no unselfish, at some level, act. So Neither what the atheist does nor what the Christian does that helps someone can be called selfless.

In that sense, it doesn't really matter why someone does a good deed, with no bad reprocussions, so long as they do it.

momalle1 said:

You'll have to show me where it says that in the new testament.

Either way, I don't see one person being better than the other, doing good is doing good.

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The sentiment is repeated often; but really, an act of refusal to do what one's master instructs is an act of rebellion, is it not?
So much the greater is the thankfulness I have for the grace and patience He has given me during my earlier life of rebellion and ignorance.:

Luke 12:35-48 35"Be dressed ready for service and keep your lamps burning, 36like men waiting for their master to return from a wedding banquet, so that when he comes and knocks they can immediately open the door for him. 37It will be good for those servants whose master finds them watching when he comes. I tell you the truth, he will dress himself to serve, will have them recline at the table and will come and wait on them. 38It will be good for those servants whose master finds them ready, even if he comes in the second or third watch of the night. 39But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have let his house be broken into. 40You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him."

41Peter asked, "Lord, are you telling this parable to us, or to everyone?"
42The Lord answered, "Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? 43It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. 44I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45But suppose the servant says to himself, 'My master is taking a long time in coming,' and he then begins to beat the menservants and maidservants and to eat and drink and get drunk. 46The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers. 47"That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

James 1:22-24
22Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 23Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror 24and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like.

1 John 2:3-6
3We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. 4The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: 6Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

Matthew 21:28-32
28"What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, 'Son, go and work today in the vineyard.'

29" 'I will not,' he answered, but later he changed his mind and went.
30"Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, 'I will, sir,' but he did not go.
31"Which of the two did what his father wanted?"
"The first," they answered. Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. 32For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.
~~~

There are also other passages regarding not being fruitful or productive i.e. being given something from God and wasting it; such as the tree that doesn't produce, the talents buried, etc.

Dear Valo, anybody, whether Christian, or Atheist, if they do good out of compassion, or genuine love, God will look on it with true approval. Jesus told us, anybody who does good, because they love, does it for me. Christians, myself included, do good to all who need help, but we do not do it for a reason, we do it to give what is needed to the needy, and give the glory to God. He will bless our deeds, and love us as His Children, He will give us His Joy and His Peace. I say this humbly and kindly, Valo, and send greetings. Emmy, sister in Christ.

I take my mother to the doctor to be treated for cancer because I love her.

I help my neighbor while her husband is gone for long periods of times because I care for her.

I teach at a preschool because I love to watch children learn.

I help provide meals to a young woman who is dying of breast cancer.


I do all these things because I truly love to serve and help others. By God's love, I'm able to show these people love also. I in no way doing because I want to earn my way to heaven. I do it because my parents raised me to love, care and respect for others no matter who they are.

valo,
in all honesty, i think part of the problem you are having is that your understanding of the workings of Christianity is highly simplistic and not at all reflective of the way the Christian experiences it. it is also a self-serving version of the altruistic atheist, performing from a pure desire to serve.
when one takes on the mantle of faith, we believe that the Holy Spirit becomes a part of us that guides us. it does not instantly change us to stepford Christians who behave in a predictably perfect way, but it urges us to live lives that more closely resemble Christ's life, and this is what spurs us toward "good deeds". it is a desire to reflect what we perceive to be the highest form that human life can take. we are fortunate. we have a model to base our vision on, and when we swerve we are given correction by the Spirit, which we are always free to acknowledge or ignore. why then are we not perfect? we choose the darkness, like all people do on occaision. we sin. we do the wrong thing. we choose gratification over righteousness, but not over reward. salvation is not dependent on us being good boys and girls. no matter how hard we try, we will fail in that challenge. so goodness is never pursued for reward. it is pursued because it has been revealed to us as the right thing to do. period.
the righteous atheist has a conundrum to solve. how is he to ultimately do "good deeds" when defining what those are is an exercise in arbitrary reasoning. as long as a reasonable argument can be made for ones behavior, good is always achievable. both the Levite who passed up the opportunity to help his brother and the samaritan who stopped and went well out of his way for a supposed "rival" could surely make compelling arguments for why what they did was the right thing to do.
whether one is a Christian or atheist, doing "good" is further complicated by frequently doing good things for how they make us feel, making it a selfish act of pride, or calling the things we do "good" to justify doing things we just plain feel like doing.
i think many Christians might agree that the desire to do "good" is always the nudging of the Spirit, as encouragement to the believer and as introduction to the non-believer.

The atheist is the moral supierior, and more worthy of heaven in this question.

Valo said:

Who is better?

The Christian that does good in order to buy themselves into Heaven because a book told them.

OR

The Atheist that does good because it is the right thing to do by their own morals because they like to help people.


I'm thinking that its the Athiest because no one told them to do good, they won't get anything out of it. Maybe a warm fuzzy feeling that they've helped someone and made a friend but they're not trying to buy God's graces with it.

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First, you can't buy your way into heaven. By accepting Christ as the Savior, we admit that there is absolutely nothing we can do to be able to be with God. We acknowledge that we (humanity) have a sin nature, and in that sin nature, is the incapability of existing in the presence of Holiness. We acknowledge that the payment of Christ's blood was enough to pay our debt, and it is in that confession, and our repentance of sin, that we receive that blood to cover our debt.

The difference between Christians and Atheists, who both do good things, when looking only at the person, is nothing. We're identical in all respects. Why will Christians go to heaven? We accepted what Christ did for us, and because of that, God will see the blood of Jesus on us, instead of our sins.

What keeps the rest of you from doing the same?
1. Oppression from the powers of darkness that seek to kill and destroy you.
2. Rebellion


John 8:42-44
42Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Valo said:

Who is better?

The Christian that does good in order to buy themselves into Heaven because a book told them.

OR

The Atheist that does good because it is the right thing to do by their own morals because they like to help people.


I'm thinking that its the Athiest because no one told them to do good, they won't get anything out of it. Maybe a warm fuzzy feeling that they've helped someone and made a friend but they're not trying to buy God's graces with it.

Click to expand...

St. Augustine argued that any Christian who attempts to buy themselves into heaven is not a Christian, but rather is someone who only believes in fear, and should not be regarded as a Christian.

To me, the question is invalid, because there is no such thing as a Christian who is working at buying a way into heaven. The concept is ludecrious and was outlawed by the Catholic church when they were selling indulgences during the renaissance. It has no theological foundation, and is an insult to Christianity itself.

It is a non-question.