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Who Goes To Hell?

FineLinen

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As a Christian I don't fear the second death.

You may not fear the Lake of all lakes, but are you aware of the ONLY individuals who are not "hurt" by the second death?

Hurt = adikeo = to do hurt.

Overcomer = nikao = to prevail.


These saints are the followers of the Lamb in the withersoever described as overcomers.

"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who conquers will not be hurt by the second death."
 
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Saint Steven

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As a Christian I don't fear the second death.

But what is your interpretation of Matthew 10:28?
I'll be honest, I'm not sure what to make of verse 28 when isolated by itself. The context helps a bit. But I still find it somewhat mysterious. Look at verses 29-31. This speaks of the Father's love and care for us. A stark contrast to the seeming threat of verse 28. Maybe some of our pals here have a better grip on this one than I do.

Matthew 10:26-31
“So do not be afraid of them, for there is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. 27 What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs. 28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. 29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground outside your Father’s care. 30 And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 So don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.
 
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FineLinen

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I'll be honest, I'm not sure what to make of verse 28 when isolated by itself. The context helps a bit. But I still find it somewhat mysterious. Look at verses 29-31. This speaks of the Father's love and care for us. A stark contrast to the seeming threat of verse 28. Maybe some of our pals here have a better grip on this one than I do.

Matthew 10:26-31
“So do not be afraid of them, for there is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. 27 What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs. 28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. 29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground outside your Father’s care. 30 And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 So don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

1. And at one point, upon summoning His twelve disciples to Himself, He gave to them authority pertaining to unclean spirits (attitudes; breath-effects), to be habitually casting them out, as well as to be constantly curing (or: treating and caring for) every disease and all incapacities (weaknesses; infirmities; sicknesses).

2. Now these are the names of the twelve men sent forth with a mission (emissaries; envoys; representatives): First, Simon, the one called Peter, and then Andrew, his brother. Next, Jacob (James) the [son] of Zebedee, and his brother John.

3. And then [there are] Philip and Bartholomew, Thomas and Matthew – the tax collector (or: tax-farmer), Jacob the [son] of Alphaeus and Thaddaeus,

4. Simon the Cananaean [other MSS: Cananite; possibly = a nationalist political party], and then Judah (Judas) the one of Iscariot – the one handing Him over (or: turning Him in [to the authorities]).

5. Jesus commissioned and sent off these, the twelve, upon passing on announcements and instructions to them, continuing in saying, "You men should not go off into the roads or paths of ethnic multitudes ([the] nations; the non-Israelites; or: pagan ways), and you should not enter into a Samaritan city.

6. "But, instead, continue on your way toward the lost and destroyed sheep that belong to 'the house of Israel.'

7. "Now as you are traveling on your way, be constantly performing the work of a herald, repeatedly saying publicly that the reigning and activity of exercising the sovereignty of the heavens (or: kingdom of the atmospheres) has drawn near and is close enough to touch (= has arrived and is now accessible)!

8. "Be constantly serving, curing and restoring to health (or: giving attentive care to and treatment for) those who are habitually weak, feeble and inadequate. Habitually be rousing and raising up dead people. Be continually cleansing lepers (scabby folks). Make it a habit to cast out demons (Hellenistic concept and term: = animistic influences). You folks receive (or: received) freely (as a gift; = without cost), [so] give freely (as a gift; = without charge).

9. "You should not be procuring or acquiring gold, nor yet silver, nor even copper [i.e., no pocket money] into your belts or girdle purses.

10. "[Take] no beggar's pouch (or: food bag; or: traveling knapsack) into the road, nor two undergarments (tunics) or sandals nor yet a staff or club. You see, the worker [is] worthy of his nourishment (or: is of corresponding value for his food, keep and support).

[comment: be barefoot priests: the Land is holy; the villages are temples – Bruce Chilton]

11. "Now, into whichever city or village you men may enter, search out who within it is suitable (of corresponding values to your own; worthy), [then] remain lodging there until you should leave (go out of the midst [of the town]).

12. "So, when entering in the house, greet, express good wishes and embrace the household,

13. "And if, indeed, the house should be suitable and worthy, you men let your peace [= shalom] come upon it – yet if it may not be suitable or worthy, let your peace and shalom be returned back upon yourselves.

14. "Also, whoever may not welcome and receive you men, nor even listen to your words or hear your message, as you are going outside, from out of the house or that city, shake the dust off your feet.

[note: Hospitality in those times and countries involved having a servant wash the feet of their guests; further: Jews did this when they left a Gentile country, so this would indicate that this town was being regarded as polluted and unholy, and in the same category as the Gentiles; comment: this could be a metaphor to shake off that incident, so as not to let their “humanity” cling to them]

15. "Assuredly – I now say to you folks – it will proceed being more endurable in the land of Sodom and Gomorrah, in a day of separating and deciding, than in that city (or: it will be more supportable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah, in a day of judging, than for that town)!

16. "Now look, and really see this situation: I, Myself, am now sending you folks off – being emissaries on a mission – as sheep within the midst of [a pack of] wolves! Therefore, habitually come to be thoughtful, prudent, cautious and discreet (or: = wary and on the alert; = observant, decisive and timely) – as the snakes [are]; and yet [still] unmixed (pure; = without negative characteristics added) – as the doves [are].

17. "So constantly hold your attention toward protecting yourself from humanity. You see, they will periodically be giving you folks over (turning you in) unto [their] local city councils and courts, and then they will proceed scourging you with lashes and whips.

18. "Yet you men will also, on My account, be from time to time led (or: brought) before (or: on [the stand to speak to]) governors and kings, with a view to being a witness to them and providing evidence for them – as well as to and for and among the ethnic multitudes (the nations; the non-Israelites; = the pagans).

19. "However, whenever they may hand you folks over (turn you in), you should not be anxious or overly concerned about how or what you should be speaking, for, what you should say will continue being given to you men – within that hour!

20. "You see, you, yourselves, are not the ones then speaking, but rather, [it is] the Spirit (Breath-effect; Attitude) of your Father repeatedly speaking within you.

21. "So brother will continue giving over (turn in) brother unto death – and a father, a child – and children will continue standing up upon (or: rising up against or attacking) parents and will from time to time murder them, or cause them to be put to death.

22. "And further, you folks will continue being hated, detached and regarded with ill-will by everyone – because of My Name. Yet the one remaining under [these conditions] and patiently enduring into a conclusion (or: into an ending [of these events]; unto [the] final act) – this one will habitually be rescued (delivered; saved; restored to health and wholeness).

23. "Now whenever they may continue chasing you or be repeatedly persecuting you in this [particular] city, proceed taking flight (escaping) into a different one, for, truly – I now say to you folks – you can under no circumstances complete the circuit of (or: finish [visiting]) the cities (or: towns) of Israel until the Son of the Man (humanity's son; = Adam's son; or: = the awaited Messianic figure) should go (or: comes; can come).

24. "A student (or: disciple) is not over or above the teacher, nor [is] a slave over or above his owner.

25. "[It is] sufficient and enough for the student (or: disciple) that he can come to be as his teacher, and the slave as his owner. Since (or: If) people call and surname the Sovereign (Master and Sole Owner) of the house (the Householder) 'Beelzeboul' [spellings vary; = lord of the flies, a Philistine deity], how much rather (or: more) those of His household.

26. "So then, you men should not be made to fear them. You see, there is nothing being veiled or covered which will not proceed having its covering taken away and be revealed, and hidden which will not be habitually made known and familiar.

27. "What I am now saying to you folks within the darkness (the shaded areas of obscurity; = being within the system and religion of the dim shadows) you say within the light (= the light of the coming Day). And what you are now hearing whispered into the ear, you people, as heralds, publicly proclaim upon the housetops (= make it publicly known).

28. "Stop being (or: Do not continue being [other MSS: You should not be]) made to fear from the one normally killing the body, and yet continuing unable (with no power) to be killing the soul. But rather, be habitually fearing (or: continue being wary of, with a healthy respect for) the person being constantly able and continuing with power to loose-away and destroy (or: to cause to be lost) both soul (the interior life; [note: may refer to the person's reputation in regard to character and other personal qualities]) as well as body within the Valley of Hinnom

(Greek: Gehenna; Jerusalem's garbage dump: the place where criminals and folks with disgraced lives, and thus considered unfit for proper burial, were cast away; the disgraced end of an outcast or criminal).

29. "Are not two sparrows normally sold for a penny (Roman copper coin of the smallest value)? And yet not one from among them will proceed falling upon the ground without being with (or: being away from) your Father!

30. "Now even the hairs of you head are all ones having been counted and numbered!

31. "Therefore, stop fearing (or: Then do not continue fearing). You folks continuously carry on through so as to excel and be of more consequence than (be superior to and thus of more value than) whole flocks of sparrows!

32. "Everyone, then, that will keep on acknowledging union with Me and speaking in accord with Me in front of (before and in the presence of) humans (mankind), I, Myself, also will continue to acknowledge union with him and will keep on speaking of him in the same way (saying the same thing of him) in front of (before and in the presence of) My Father – the One within and in union with the heavens (or: in the midst of the atmospheres).

33. "Yet, whoever may refuse [to acknowledge] Me, or can disown and deny Me, in front of humans (mankind), I, Myself, also will continue refusing [to acknowledge] him, and will keep on disowning and denying him, in front of My Father – the One within and in union with the heavens (or: in the midst of the atmospheres).

34. "You folks should not assume from custom or infer from the Law that I come (or: came) to throw peace [= shalom] upon the Land (or: earth). I do (or: did) not come to throw peace, but to the contrary, a sword (a curved weapon for close combat)!

35. "You see, I come (or: came) to disunite (to make to be two and then pit):

'a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a bride against her mother-in-law,'

36. "And so,

'a person's enemies [are/will be] those of his own household.' [Micah 7:6]

37. "The person habitually having fondness and affection for father and mother over and above for Me is not suitable for Me (or: worthy or of equal value with regards to Me). Likewise the person continuing in having fondness and affection for a son or daughter over and above for Me is not suitable for Me (worthy of Me).

38. "Furthermore, he who is not habitually taking his cross (execution stake) and then constantly following after (behind) Me, is not suitable for Me (worthy of Me).

39. "The person who is searching and then finding his own soul (his own will, his intellect, his emotions and his self-life as his goals; his self-seeking, self-possessed persona and identity), will be repeatedly losing it. And yet the person loosing-away or destroying his soul (his own will, his self-centered life of a self-seeking, self-possessed persona and identity, his emotions, his plans and goals) – on account of Me – will be progressively finding and discovering it [i.e., his true self, identity and purpose].

40. "The person habitually receiving, welcoming and embracing you folks continually receives, welcomes and embraces Me; and the person that continues receiving, welcoming and embracing Me continuously receives, welcomes and embraces the One sending Me off as a representative with a mission (as an emissary).

41. "The person who by habit receives, welcomes and embraces a prophet into [the place of regard and function] that pertains to a prophet's reputation and vocation, will repeatedly receive a prophet's wage and reward. Likewise the person who by habit receives, welcomes and embraces a fair and just person (one who maintains right relationships with God and mankind, and who has been rightwised into the path of the Way pointed out) into [the place of regard and function] that pertains to a fair and just person's reputation and way of life, will habitually receive a wage and reward that pertains to a rightwised and equitable person.

42. "And further, whoever should give only a cup of cold water to drink to one of these little ones, into [the place of regard and function] that pertains to the reputation and vocation of a disciple, assuredly, I now say to you, he can by no means lose his wage or reward.

-Jonathan Mitchell N.T. Translation-
 
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agapelove

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I'll be honest, I'm not sure what to make of verse 28 when isolated by itself. The context helps a bit. But I still find it somewhat mysterious. Look at verses 29-31. This speaks of the Father's love and care for us. A stark contrast to the seeming threat of verse 28. Maybe some of our pals here have a better grip on this one than I do.

Matthew 10:26-31
“So do not be afraid of them, for there is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. 27 What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs. 28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. 29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground outside your Father’s care. 30 And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 So don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

This was also one of the more challenging texts for me. We should note that the Bible makes clear distinctions between the body, the soul, and the Spirit.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 “Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

We can go in depth to what each means but the shorthand answer is that the "soul" is synonymous with the mind/psyche. The Hebrew word here for soul is נֶ֫פֶשׁ nephesh which translates to "living being", and in the Septuagint the word rendered is ψυχή psyche.

You can interpret this verse to be a warning about the Lake of Fire. Don't be afraid of the one who can destroy the body (the physical death, the first death), but be afraid of the one who can destroy the body and the soul/psyche/mind (second death). I don't presume to know what's going to happen in the Lake of Fire, but I imagine it will be a little like the undoing of the ego. A psychological kolasis. Basically, you do not want to end up in the Lake of Fire when you can repent now.

A simpler way to look at the text is that in its context, God is comparing the power of men to the power of God. Men can kill the body but God can kill the body and soul (but He won't).

Either way the text itself does not negate Universal Reconciliation.
 
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WebersHome

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1 John 3:1-2 See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. 2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
Your proof text is restricted to a very narrow segment of humanity. In point of fact, it only pertains to people who've undergone a special supernatural birth. Nobody else has any right whatsoever to identify themselves a child of God.

John 1:12-13 . .Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.


Only Satan would inspire such a low view of humankind.
You really ought to be a little more circumspect with your choice of words lest the hapless day arrive when you are forced to eat them.

Matt 12:35-37 . . I say to you, that every careless word that men shall speak, they shall render account for it in the day of judgment. For by your words you shall be justified, and by your words you shall be condemned.
_
 
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So such references could be about eating sinners sins or evil flesh nature till it is gone.

"Interesting aside, for what it may mean to anyone... Maggots are making a comeback in modern medicine. They gently debride wounds in a way no surgeon, however subtle, could possibly achieve. (Medical Maggots™ (maggot therapy, maggot debridement therapy, MDT, biotherapy, biosurgery, biodebridement, larval therapy) | Monarch Labs - Advanced Wound BioSurgery) They nibble away the dead and decaying cells, allowing healthy, new, regenerated cells to thrive instead. Maggots only eat dead tissue, leaving the living tissue to thrive. I think there's a big parallel there, but maybe I'm taking the "book of nature" to extremes. My husband's doctor at Mayo told me they had them there, available by prescription only--special hygienic ones, of course! :lol: "

"All these things we consider to be bad (by knee-jerk reaction at least) can also be seen as good--judgment, brimstone (aka sulfur & also used in medicine then and now), even maggots. Fire also is used in scripture as symbolic of purification--and we mustn't forget the nature of our God, who is, we're told, "a consuming fire."

Worms fertilise the soil, part of the bionic process of converting death to life.

Earthworms influence (and benefit) the soil ecosystem in a number of ways:
  • Recycling organic material: Earthworms, along with bacteria and fungi, decompose organic material. Most people know about earthworms and compost, but earthworms do the same in pasture soils, decomposing dung and plant litter and processing 2–20 tonnes of organic matter per hectare each year, and recycling leaf litter under orchards and in other forested areas.
  • Increasing nutrient availability: This happens in two ways: by incorporating organic materials into the soil and by unlocking the nutrients held within dead organisms and plant matter. Nutrients like phosphorus and nitrogen become more readily available to plants after digestion by earthworms and being excreted in earthworm casts. Scientists have measured up to five fold increases in nitrogen availability in earthworm casts compared to undigested soil. Earthworms also take nutrients down through the soil profile, bringing them into closer contact with plant roots.
  • Improving soil structure: Earthworm burrows alter the physical structure of the soil. They open up small spaces, known as pores, within the soil. When earthworms are introduced to soils devoid of them, their burrowing can lead to increases in water infiltration rates of up to 10 times the original amount. This brings water and soluble nutrients down to plant roots. Burrowing also improves soil aeration (important for both plants and other organisms living in the soil) and enhances plant root penetration.
  • Providing food for predators: Earthworms, like all creatures, are part of food webs. Birds are well known predators, but native earthworms are also food for endangered and endemic land snails.
Earthworms’ role in the ecosystem

And that, I suppose, is why kids eat 'em.
 
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A simpler way to look at the text is that in its context, God is comparing the power of men to the power of God. Men can kill the body but God can kill the body and soul (but He won't).

Well that's correct imho. Jesus immediately follows up with the 'beloved 2-bit sparrows' (think it should read doves, the most 'cost-effective' sacrifice under the old covenant, but anyway), why? It's reassurance that God loves us much more, so rhetorically asking 'Would He really do that?' He then continues to counterbalance that again by warning the disciples not to deny him else they might get denied. And ends the teaching with 'Just give some little aid in the name of a disciple'.

So I see it like a balance/ scales. He first puts the big lead weight on (God can kill both body and soul) to counterbalance the existing weight (man can kill the body), then reveals the divine weight is made of gold not lead (but God loves you dearly), and compensates for any swing back with (don't deny God), and a bit of fine tuning to produce the result (do a little something). Attuned to the divine temperament!
 
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WebersHome

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Mark 9:47-48 . . If your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out. It is better to enter the kingdom of God half blind than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell; where the worm never dies and the fire never goes out.

Christ's caution and warning about the fire and worms didn't reveal anything new. He simply reiterated information that had already been released by an Old Testament prophet roughly 700 years before Jesus was born.

Isa 66:22-24 . . From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me: says the Lord. And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.

The dead's remains, with their fire and worms, will apparently be open to the public sort of like the skeletons of prehistoric beasts on display in the La Brea Tar Pits museum in Los Angeles.


FAQ: The human body is organic. So then, how can it survive in eternal flame as perpetual nourishment for those worms?

FAQ: The resurrection of the dead depicted at Rev 20:11-15 is a bit of a mystery in that the chemistry of their bodies isn't revealed. They won't be immortal, that much is for sure. But although the dead's bodies won't be impervious to death, they will apparently will be made of a fire resistant material of some kind in order to provide perpetual nourishment for the worms.

FYI: A worm that thrives in flame is pretty amazing, but not unreasonable. The 4-inch Pompeii worm lives in sea water temperatures of 176° Fahrenheit: hot enough to kill salmonella and sanitize an egg. So I guess if God could create a worm like the Pompeii, it shouldn't be too difficult for Him to create worms that like it even warmer.
_
 
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Mark 9:47-48 . . If your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out. It is better to enter the kingdom of God half blind than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell; where the worm never dies and the fire never goes out.

Christ's caution and warning about the fire and worms didn't reveal anything new. He simply reiterated information that had already been released by an Old Testament prophet roughly 700 years before Jesus was born.

Isa 66:22-24 . . From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me: says the Lord. And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.

The dead's remains, with their fire and worms, will apparently be open to the public sort of like the skeletons of prehistoric beasts on display in the La Brea Tar Pits museum in Los Angeles.


FAQ: The human body is organic. So then, how can it survive in eternal flame as perpetual nourishment for those worms?

FAQ: The resurrection of the dead depicted at Rev 20:11-15 is a bit of a mystery in that the chemistry of their bodies isn't revealed. They won't be immortal, that much is for sure. But although the dead's bodies won't be impervious to death, they will apparently will be made of a fire resistant material of some kind in order to provide perpetual nourishment for the worms.

FYI: A worm that thrives in flame is pretty amazing, but not unreasonable. The 4-inch Pompeii worm lives in sea water temperatures of 176° Fahrenheit: hot enough to kill salmonella and sanitize an egg. So I guess if God could create a worm like the Pompeii, it shouldn't be too difficult for Him to create worms that like it even warmer.
_

How many new arrivals to the fiery sector of hades this week man?

Yes, that last verse of Isa is a doozy. So disconcerting and against the run of the tenor of the scriptural context, that we're told the Jews were in the practice of always re-reading Isa 66:23 to end it.

But as we know, the New Testament is the Old Testament REVEALED.

So what actually happens is the rumpled remains of the old man are left behind for the worms. This is in order that the following scriptures may be fulfilled, amongst others:
  • Who will not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy. All nations will come and worship before You, for Your righteous acts have been revealed (Rev 15:3)
  • And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." (Rev 21:5a)
  • The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. (Rev 21:24)
  • and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. (Rev 22:2b)
And that's why Luther loved the Diet of Wurms!
 
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ClementofA

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Christ Himself talked about the hell and damnation more than anyone else in the Bible therefore your words are false.

"Hell" becomes empty at Revelation 20:13.

Mercy triumphs over judgment (James 2:13b), i.e. over damnation.
 
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Many of you seem to not believe that the second death has any power and if that was the case, this verse and meaning would be useless.

Julie, it has power, but will be abolished & all saved:

1 Cor.15:26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

Fortunately no "eternal death" ever appears in the Sacred Scriptures (66 books of the Bible). To the contrary, death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:26).

"Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

1 Cor.15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

How many will be "under His feet"? Just enemies or all:

1 Cor.15:27 For “He has put in subjection all under His feet.” But when it may be said that all has been put in subjection, it is evident that the One having put in subjection all to Him is excepted.

So there is only one exception to "all" to be "put...under his feet". Then God will be "in" "all", hence universal salvation:

1 Cor.15:28 And when all shall be subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all under him, that God may be all in all.


Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

My following post to you showed how Mt.10:28 is harmonious with universalism salvation, here:

Who Goes To Hell?


What some of you are saying is we should not be fearing anything (totally contradicting Christ's teaching) and that there technically is not a second death. But that is not biblical.

I don't know who is saying that. That's not what the many universalist books & writings i've read say. Or the Scriptures, which repeatedly speak of fearing God. Though John says fear is for those who are not perfect in love (1 Jn.4:18). Compare Paul's words in Phil.2:12 re fear. Bible dictionaries & lexicons often say fear can mean reverence. For example: Strong's Greek: 5401. φόβος (phobos) -- panic flight, fear, the causing of fear, terror

Again, I don't believe there will be anyone burning forever in eternity

Well, that would be monstrous, wouldn't you agree?

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?
 
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FineLinen

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Your proof text is restricted to a very narrow segment of humanity. In point of fact, it only pertains to people who've undergone a special supernatural birth. Nobody else has any right whatsoever to identify themselves a child of God.

"He IS the at-one-ment for our sins....

AND

NOT for our sins ONLY.....

BUT

for the sins of the whole world."

Jesus the Christ IS the hilasmos of the holos !
 
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ClementofA

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Mark 9:47-48 . . If your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out. It is better to enter the kingdom of God half blind than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell; where the worm never dies and the fire never goes out.

Christ's caution and warning about the fire and worms didn't reveal anything new. He simply reiterated information that had already been released by an Old Testament prophet roughly 700 years before Jesus was born.

Isa 66:22-24 . . From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me: says the Lord. And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.

The dead's remains, with their fire and worms, will apparently be open to the public sort of like the skeletons of prehistoric beasts on display in the La Brea Tar Pits museum in Los Angeles.


FAQ: The human body is organic. So then, how can it survive in eternal flame as perpetual nourishment for those worms?

FAQ: The resurrection of the dead depicted at Rev 20:11-15 is a bit of a mystery in that the chemistry of their bodies isn't revealed. They won't be immortal, that much is for sure. But although the dead's bodies won't be impervious to death, they will apparently will be made of a fire resistant material of some kind in order to provide perpetual nourishment for the worms.

FYI: A worm that thrives in flame is pretty amazing, but not unreasonable. The 4-inch Pompeii worm lives in sea water temperatures of 176° Fahrenheit: hot enough to kill salmonella and sanitize an egg. So I guess if God could create a worm like the Pompeii, it shouldn't be too difficult for Him to create worms that like it even warmer.
_


Isa.66:23 And it shall be from new moon to new moon And from sabbath to sabbath, All mankind will come to bow down before Me," says the LORD.
Isa.66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

(1) First of all, Isa.66:22-24 makes no mention of what has become of the souls of the "corpses" referred to:

23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

(2) Secondly, nothing in verses 22-24 says verses 23 & 24 refer to the lake of fire or the new earth. Consider Option A at the following re a premillennial take on Isa.65 & 66:

http://wasillabible.org/sermon-blog/isaiah-65-66-vision-part-3

(3) I wonder how "corpses" (v.24) would survive in a lake of fire. Or worms (v.24) . OTOH worms could survive in a millennial eon garbage dump called Gehenna. As could "corpses" survive that were in parts of the garbage dump that were not completely consumed by fire.

(4) If it were the new earth, why does verse 23 refer to new moons and the sabbath?

“The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee; but the Lord shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory” (Isa.60:19)

Rev.21:22 But I saw no temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 And the city has no need for sun or moon to shine on it, because the glory of God illuminates the city, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24 By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory.
25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there.
26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it.


(5) Even if the reference is to the new earth, if there are still "corpses" of the dead in the lake of fire, how is it that death has already been abolished (v.26 in 1 Cor.15:22-28)?

"Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

(6) For an interesting take on our passage, there is this alleged view:

"It is interesting that many of these comments touch on the concept that is well-articulated by C.S. Lewis' mentor, George McDonald, in his sermon, "The Consuming Fire." The concept is that God himself is the consuming fire and he will burn away all our iniquities, including those of Satan, who will emerge from the experience as the purified Lucifer, as he was created to be. This is what is pictured in Isaiah 66:24 where all beings will look upon their old selves as carcasses burning in God's eternally consuming fire. To understand this picture one must realize that the perspective is that of a totally redeemed eternal being looking back on his or her past life and sensing some regret for their own sins."

Origen on the Salvation of the Devil

7) In any case, when death is abolished (1 Cor.15:22-28) & all are made new (Rev.21:5, 5:13), the dead in the second death (lake of fire) will rise back to life "in Christ" & God will be "all in all" (1 Cor.15:22,28). IOW there will be universal salvation of every person that has ever lived since Adam was created.

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism


Mark9:49 "For everyone will be salted with fire."

Nothing there says tortures are endless. Instead it refers to a fire and worm. And a fire that is not quenched can end or burn out on it's own, as proven by:

"Let us see how the word "asbestos (unquenchable) was used by the Greeks. Strabo calls it the lamp in the Parthenon, and Plutarch calls the sacred fire of a temple "unquenchable," though they were extinguished long ago. Josephus, the Jewish Priest who saw the destruction of Jerusalem says that the fire on the altar of the temple at Jerusalem was "always unquenchable" abeston aei, yet he was there when the fire on the altar was forever extinguished. Eusibius, the church historian who lived in Constantine's day says that certain martyrs of Alexandria "were burned in unquenchable fire." The fire was put out within an hour! Homer speaks of "unquenchable laughter" asbestos gelos, (Iliad, I: 599)"

Bible Threatening Explained

Nothing here says they stay in Gehenna for endless ages, so can't come out. Neither does it say that while in Gehenna there is no salvation. In the book of Revelation the gates into the city of God are always open. God says He is making "all" new (21:5).

unquenchabe is limited not endless...ancient examples given here:

A Key to Universalism

Mark 9:43: "into Gehenna, into the unextinguished fire." First, the word "unquenchable" in the Bible is translated from the Greek word asbestos which simply means "not quenched." In itself, that is not the same as "not ABLE to be quenched" or "unquenchable." It is similar to God's judgments being without appeal "until they have finished all his plans:"

"The fierce anger of the LORD will not diminish until it has finished all his plans. In the days to come, you will understand all this.."(Jer 30:24).

As for an immortal worm that never dies, some ECT commentators say it refers to the immortal soul. ECTers can't agree amongst themselves what it means & Jesus didn't elaborate. In Isaiah 66 the worm is spoken of in the same verse that speaks of "corpses". So, they could be eating dead bodies during the millennial age eon.

"Perhaps unbeknownst to many traditionalists who cite this verse as a challenge to conditionalism, Jesus is quoting Isaiah 66:24 here, in which it is said explicitly that it is corpses being consumed by fire and maggots—not living beings. Those traditionalists who are aware of this nevertheless insist that the worm is depicted as never dying and the fire as never going out. But this is not what these idioms communicate."

"The phrase “does not die” is used several times in the Hebrew scripture and does not mean will never die (Genesis 42:20; Exodus 30:20; Jeremiah 38:24). It means that someone or something will not die at a particular time or in a particular context."

how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire

So such references could be about eating sinners sins or evil flesh nature till it is gone.




"Interesting aside, for what it may mean to anyone... Maggots are making a comeback in modern medicine. They gently debride wounds in a way no surgeon, however subtle, could possibly achieve.
(Medical Maggots™ (maggot therapy, maggot debridement therapy, MDT, biotherapy, biosurgery, biodebridement, larval therapy) | Monarch Labs - Advanced Wound BioSurgery) They nibble away the dead and decaying cells, allowing healthy, new, regenerated cells to thrive instead. Maggots only eat dead tissue, leaving the living tissue to thrive. I think there's a big parallel there, but maybe I'm taking the "book of nature" to extremes. My husband's doctor at Mayo told me they had them there, available by prescription only--special hygienic ones, of course! :lol: "

"All these things we consider to be bad (by knee-jerk reaction at least) can also be seen as good--judgment, brimstone (aka sulfur & also used in medicine then and now), even maggots. Fire also is used in scripture as symbolic of purification--and we mustn't forget the nature of our God, who is, we're told, "a consuming fire."

http://www.evangelicaluniversalist.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=7523

"Now, salt too, just as the divine fire, is associated with the
eschatological test in Mark 9:49, a text I have already analysed, where this fire is presented as purifying and performing the disinfecting function of salt: “all will be salted by this fire,” if they have lost their salt in this life."
(Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp., p.53)

"Truly I say to you, you will not come out of there [Gehenna]
until you have paid up the last cent. The word ―until unmistakably confirms Gehenna is of a limited duration. Once the penalty is exacted, release follows, but not before. Note He addressed these words to a mixed audience of believers and unbelievers (Mt. 5:1;7:28; 8:1). (See also Mt. 18:34-35)." http://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jn.1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

4:39 Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to him, they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days. 41 And because of his words many more became believers.
42 They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”

John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

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Saint Steven

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You really ought to be a little more circumspect with your choice of words lest the hapless day arrive when you are forced to eat them.
If I'm wrong, I'll have to apologize for having such a high regard for God's good character. I think I would prefer that to facing him for assassinating his good character.

Saint Steven said:
Only Satan would inspire such a low view of humankind.
 
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Saint Steven

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As a Christian I don't fear the second death.

But what is your interpretation of Matthew 10:28?
Let's turn the question back to you.
How do you reconcile verse 28 with what we read in verses 29-31? (text below)

What are we to fear in verse 28 from the Father who cares for the sparrows (sold two for a penny) which do not fall to the ground outside his care? And of humankind, for which the very hairs of our heads are numbered. (verses 29-31 below)

Matthew 10:26-31
“So do not be afraid of them, for there is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. 27 What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs. 28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. 29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground outside your Father’s care. 30 And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 So don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.
 
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JulieB67

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It means while in the flesh we shouldn't worry about what someone can do to our body and can't do anything more than that. Only God can destroy both body and soul in hell so we are not to worry what flesh man can do. And if God takes care of the sparrows, he will certainly take care of us so do not fear. I don't have a problem with that. But this is certainly telling us, if you are thrown into the lake of fire, your soul will be fully destroyed. God is a consuming fire.

And yes, our Father is a very loving God. That's why I don't believe in an eternal burning hell and I know that's not biblical. But God only wants those that truly love him. That's who he wants to spend at eternity with. And he's giving them ample opportunity. Christ even preached to the spirits in the prison.

But this what free will is about. And it's ultimately what this earth age is about. Who is going to follow God or who is going to follow Satan at the end of this age.

And why the warnings from Christ and Paul about the tribulation on not being deceived if ultimately it doesn't matter.? They both say beware. And Christ tells us that during that time, in our patience we are to possess our souls. Meaning our souls are at stake during the time of the tribulation. Because many will fall away in apostasy as Paul teaches. And we are to have our full armour on at that point. But again, why all this teaching if it doesn't matter in the long run? What's the point?

And there is a book of "life" and not everyone is in it.

Are you saying this book has no relevance?
 
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Der Alte

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How is what I quoted out of context when it is literally what we are talking about?
Jesus was using King Herod to represent the gods of this age, the ones who steal from the poor to make themselves more rich (this is literally what the Master is doing and telling his servants to do). Once again does this sound like Jesus?!
Even if it was not a direct reference to King Herod He is clearly talking about rulers/masters of this world. The Master is NOT GOD.
The final statements of the Parable of the Talents has the "master" demanding that his enemies be outcast. This is foreshadowing what will happen to Jesus Himself and those who follow Him when they stand up to the gods of this age.
Immediately after this parable is the Parable of the Goats and Sheeps. How does Jesus tell us he will differentiate between the two? By how they treated the "least of these brothers and sisters of mine" (Matthew 25:40).
The alternative reading of this parable makes much more sense in light of the context and complete ministry of Jesus.
Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew. Book XIV.
12. And to another, who had multiplied the pound fivefold, he did not render the praise which he assigned to the first, nor did he specify the word “authority,” as in the case of the first, but said to him, “Be thou also over five cities.”62 But to him who had tied up the pound in a napkin, he said, “Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant;” (Luk_19:22) and he said to them that stood by. Take from him the pound, and give it unto him that hath the ten pounds (Luk_19:24) Who, then, in regard to this parable, will not say that the nobleman, who goes into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and to return, is Christ, going, as it were, into another country to receive the kingdoms of this world, and the things in it? And those who have received the ten talents are those who have been entrusted with the dispensation of the Word which has been committed unto them. And His citizens who did not wish Him to reign over them when He was a citizen in the world in respect of His incarnation, (Luk_19:14) are perhaps Israel who disbelieved Him, and perhaps also the Gentiles who disbelieved Him.
This writing by Origen is much longer but this quote states it quite succinctly.

 
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FineLinen

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It means while in the flesh we shouldn't worry about what someone can do to our body and can't do anything more than that. Only God can destroy both body and soul in hell so we are not to worry what flesh man can do. And if God takes care of the sparrows, he will certainly take care of us so do not fear. I don't have a problem with that. But this is certainly telling us, if you are thrown into the lake of fire, your soul will be fully destroyed. God is a consuming fire.

And yes, our Father is a very loving God. That's why I don't believe in an eternal burning hell and I know that's not biblical. But God only wants those that truly love him. That's who he wants to spend at eternity with. And he's giving them ample opportunity. Christ even preached to the spirits in the prison.

Our God is indeed consuming fire, this is His essence, and so is Love, not a mere characteristic, His essence. The Lake of Fire is in the same dimension, it is the theion & theioo of Theos.

There is no way of escaping Him. Each of us were made by Him & for Him. In the final chapter His glorious will prevails, every last digit.

That IN/en the Name of Jesus every knee bows, every tongue confesses "You are Lord."
 
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FineLinen

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Revelation 5:13

Every created thing (pan ktisma). Every creature in a still wider antiphonal circle beyond the circle of angels (from ktizw, for which see I Timothy 4:4; James 1:18), from all the four great fields of life (in heaven, upon the earth, under the earth as in verse Revelation 5:3, with on the sea epi thv qalasshv added). No created thing is left out. This universal chorus of praise to Christ from all created life reminds one of the profound mystical passage in Romans 8:20-22 concerning the sympathetic agony of creation (ktisiv) in hope of freedom from the bondage of corruption. If the trail of the serpent is on all creation, it will be ultimately thrown off. -Robertson Word Pictures-
 
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