Who Goes To Hell?

sunshineforJesus · Apr 28, 2020

What sends people to hell is not believing in Jesus as your Lord and saviour.

ClementofA · Apr 29, 2020

ViaCrucis said:
No, listening to music won't send you to hell.

The only thing that can send you to hell is you personally wanting to go to hell.

-CryptoLutheran

Who but the insane would - want - to go to hell?

In human courts insanity is cause for acquittal.

"If the glove doesn't fit, you must acquit" ;

ClementofA · Apr 29, 2020

sunshineforJesus said:
What sends people to hell is not believing in Jesus as your Lord and saviour.

Lucky for doubting Thomas that Jesus appeared to him after the resurrection. Cause Thomas was refusing to - believe - Jesus was risen. I wonder if everyone will get the chance that Thomas did - to see Jesus & have Him talk to them while they are still alive in this world? Think so?

ClementofA · Apr 29, 2020

Der Alter said:
See my post [*5 link] this thread for the actual origin of the very Biblical doctrine of hell. 100s of year before the church.

See this list with my replies addressing that post directly & related topics:

Search Results for Query: Jewish Encyclopedia | Christian Forums

For example:

Question about eternal damnation

martymonster · Apr 29, 2020

HARK! said:
Weird. I quoted who that was directed toward. I can see it fine from my end; and it's not directly under your post.

Oh, sorry HARK!, I don't what happened there. I've noticed some weird behaviour with posts, sometimes.

mindlight · Apr 29, 2020

boxman144 said:
Can listening to certain music take you to Hell? Can you be a believer in Christ, and still go to Hell? Title says all that needs to be said, ciao.

boxman144

You cannot be a true believer and be thrown into the lake of fire. It does not matter what music you hear as it is not music that saves or dams you but rather the grace of God. It those who have not put their trust in God through Christ who will be consigned to Gehenna.

Ivan Hlavanda · Apr 29, 2020

boxman144 said:
Can listening to certain music take you to Hell? Can you be a believer in Christ, and still go to Hell? Title says all that needs to be said, ciao.

boxman144

You might be born in a Christian family, be baptised, believe in Christ your whole life, go to church, read your bible everyday, listen to sermons, be a nice person and still don't go Heaven. Whereas you might be born in a dessert and go to Heaven?

Why? Because your environment and life circumstances don't matter, you still depend on God's grace. We are all equal before God. You must be born in Spirit, but there's nothing you can do to do that, only God can.

Just look at the bible. The pharisees studied Torah for 70 years, believed they knew God, had Jesus among them yet did not recognised Him. They were spotless externally but their hearts were still wicked. You can't chose to be a Christian, only God can who He gives His grace to. What you can do however, is to pray and ask for it. Ask God to have mercy on you because you are completely helpless to even fight the sin, surrender your all and let Him guide you.

Marumorose · Apr 29, 2020

boxman144 said:
Can listening to certain music take you to Hell? Can you be a believer in Christ, and still go to Hell? Title says all that needs to be said, ciao.

boxman144

If the music is promoting sinful things, then Yes you can go to hell. You may not be thrown in the lake of fire but you will not enter into heaven. Remember that a sin can be an action, a thought, a feeling or words.
Example
If you are listening to a song like "King Satan", you are emotionally worshipping the devil
the Chorus says
Dance with the devil, dance with a god
God of your god, blood of my blood
Dance with the devil, dance with a god
As god is the devil and the devil is god
Dance with the devil and be your own god
Feel your own death and be reborn
Dance with the devil and be a f...... god
Be your own lord by the powers of Satan

If you listen to a song about love making and you are not married, you are emotionally committing fornication

Believing in Christ means you obey Jesus Christ or his commandments
John 14:15 says "If you love me, keep my commands. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever

May God Bless You

Randy777 · Apr 29, 2020

boxman144 said:
Can listening to certain music take you to Hell? Can you be a believer in Christ, and still go to Hell? Title says all that needs to be said, ciao.

boxman144

If you have the Spirit of Christ in you then you are one with Jesus and belong to Him. So the answer is that those who belong to Him will never die. God cannot disown Himself.

Listening to music does not in itself make a person unclean. Sin springs out of the heart of a person. Out of the heart comes thief, murder, hate, sexual immorality etc...(Sin)

Josheb · Apr 29, 2020

boxman144 said:
Who goes to hell?

Everyone who does not believe in Christ resurrected.

boxman144 said:
Can listening to certain music take you to Hell?

No. However, listening to certain music may be a symptom of an unbelieving life.

boxman144 said:
Can you be a believer in Christ, and still go to Hell?

No. Light and darkness do not dwell together.

boxman144 said:
Title says all that needs to be said, ciao.

Hardly.

"Hell" is a pagan concept. Jesus used four terms to speak of the bad side of life on the other side of the grave: Sheol, Hell, Hades, and Gehenna. These were the concepts familiar to his first century audience but Jesus taught none of them were an accurate reflection of the truth. In the classic Jewish view Sheol was a place where the dead knew nothing. In the classic Greek and Roman view Hades and Hell were the underworld where one went to live in the domain of a god where life was conscious but miserable. Gehenna was the trash pit outside of Jerusalem where the trash decomposed under the heat of a constant methane flame. If a person was privilege s/he might be promoted to live in the Elysian fields on the skirts of Mt. Olympus.

None of that is what Jesus taught. Jesus taught a simple dichotomy: eternal destruction or eternal life. John tells us that all people are already living in a state of condemnation simply because they have not believed in God's monogene sarx egenetos, His single-source Son made flesh. We speak of "judgement day," but according to John 3 the judgement has already been rendered and the verdict is "men love darkness because their deeds are evil," and they will not come into the light for fear their deeds will be seen for what they are.

So "hell" is the default setting. Everyone is going to hell unless and until the come to a saving knowledge of God through His resurrected Son Jesus, the anointed one. Because of one man's disobedience sin and death have come to all because all will sin.

ViaCrucis · Apr 29, 2020

ClementofA said:
Who but the insane would - want - to go to hell?

In human courts insanity is cause for acquittal.

"If the glove doesn't fit, you must acquit" ;

Depends on what "hell" is. A literal fiery chasm filled with diabolical tortures? I doubt anyone would want that. But the state of pure and unabashed selfishness? I suspect that we are fighting day by day against that hell in ourselves.

"The whole difficulty of understanding Hell is that the thing to be understood is so nearly Nothing. But ye'll have had experiences . . . it begins with a grumbling mood, and yourself still distinct from it: perhaps criticising it. And yourself, in a dark hour, may will that mood, embrace it. Ye can repent and come out of it again. But there may come a day when you can do that no longer. Then there will be no you left to criticise the mood, nor even to enjoy it, but just the grumble itself going on forever like a machine." - C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce

"It's not a question of God `sending' us to Hell. In each of us there is something growing up which will of itself be Hell unless it is nipped in the bud." - C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock

"I mean that those who have become conscious that they have sinned against love suffer greater torment from this than from any fear of punishment. For the sorrow caused in the heart by sin against love is sharper than any torment that can be. It would be improper for a man to think that sinners in hell are deprived of the love of God. Love is the offspring of knowledge of the truth which, as is commonly confessed, is given to all. The power of love works in two ways: it torments those who have played the fool, even as happens here when a friend suffers from a friend; but it becomes a source of joy for those who have observed its duties. Thus I say that this is the torment of hell: bitter regret. But love inebriates the souls of the sons of heaven by its delectability." - St. Isaac the Syrian

-CryptoLutheran

Der Alte · Apr 29, 2020

Josheb said:
.... "Hell" is a pagan concept. Jesus used four terms to speak of the bad side of life on the other side of the grave: Sheol, Hell, Hades, and Gehenna. These were the concepts familiar to his first century audience but Jesus taught none of them were an accurate reflection of the truth. In the classic Jewish view Sheol was a place where the dead knew nothing. In the classic Greek and Roman view Hades and Hell were the underworld where one went to live in the domain of a god where life was conscious but miserable. Gehenna was the trash pit outside of Jerusalem where the trash decomposed under the heat of a constant methane flame. If a person was privilege s/he might be promoted to live in the Elysian fields on the skirts of Mt. Olympus.
None of that is what Jesus taught. Jesus taught a simple dichotomy: eternal destruction or eternal life. John tells us that all people are already living in a state of condemnation simply because they have not believed in God's monogene sarx egenetos, His single-source Son made flesh. We speak of "judgement day," but according to John 3 the judgement has already been rendered and the verdict is "men love darkness because their deeds are evil," and they will not come into the light for fear their deeds will be seen for what they are.
So "hell" is the default setting. Everyone is going to hell unless and until the come to a saving knowledge of God through His resurrected Son Jesus, the anointed one. Because of one man's disobedience sin and death have come to all because all will sin.

That is one view but first I will address the erroneous statement "Gehenna was the trash pit outside of Jerusalem where the trash decomposed under the heat of a constant methane flame."

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1

/…..Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
The Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna is a myth - Archaeology, Biblical History & Textual Criticism

...
Excavations near the Temple Mount and within the residential areas have already shown that no waste had accumulated there (Reich and Billig 2000), and thus waste must have been removed, most likely in an organized manner. Recently, the contemporaneous city-dump was identified on the eastern slope of the south-eastern hill of Jerusalem in the form of a thick mantle (up to 10 m, 200,000 m3 ) (Reich and Shukron 2003). The dump is located roughly 100 m outside and south-east of the Temple Mount on the eastern slope of the Kidron Valley (fig. 1), and extends at least 400 m and is 50–70 m wide. Large amounts of pottery and coins date the dump to the Early Roman period (the 1st century BCE and the 1st century CE up to the destruction of the city by the Romans in 70 CE). A preliminary study of the garbage (Bouchnik, Bar-Oz and Reich 2004; Bouchnik et al. 2005) showed the presence of animal bones.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...udy_of_the_City-Dump_of_Early_Roman_Jerusalem

Der Alte · Apr 29, 2020

Josheb said:
"Hell" is a pagan concept. Jesus used four terms to speak of the bad side of life on the other side of the grave: Sheol, Hell, Hades, and Gehenna. These were the concepts familiar to his first century audience but Jesus taught none of them were an accurate reflection of the truth. In the classic Jewish view Sheol was a place where the dead knew nothing. In the classic Greek and Roman view Hades and Hell were the underworld where one went to live in the domain of a god where life was conscious but miserable. ...

…..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom, hades and gehenna in the NT.
…..There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were differing beliefs does not rebut, refute, change or disprove anything in this post.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this verse would be about 700 BC +/-]

[Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT supposed bias of Christian translators. DA]

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
= = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.

When Jesus taught e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3X Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12

…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that often it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4

…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why didn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs?

Josheb · Apr 29, 2020

Der Alter said:
If the Jews were wrong, why didn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc?

I just answered that question!!!

Neither response to my op reply changes the point being made, nor do they change the answers to the questions asked in this op. We can digress and discuss, debate, dispute the historical Jewish iterations of Sheol or Gehenna (you're wrong, btw; see Acts 2:38), or we can discuss the answers to the questions asked in this op. You are digressing in your own op.

The fact is Judaism was often wrong. They got the priesthood wrong. They got the monarchy wrong. They got the temple wrong. Every single one of these errors found its way into their theologies, which were wrong. Jesus stood right there in front of them healing and casting out demons, commanding nature itself and they argued over the nature of the Messiah.... with the Messiah they denied! Most of what Jesus taught can be found in the Tanakh; he didn't teach new so much as he taught anew. He was frequently correcting the misguided views of God's Law and the prophets and this is evidenced every time he says, "You have heard it said......., but I tell you..." and then he correct their error(s).

So I recommend some discernment be used when appealing to second- and third-hand extra-biblical sources, especially if they are Jewish. The Bible tells us the Sadducees did not believe in a life after death. That was the prevailing Jewish theological view.

But that has little to do with who goes to whatever hell may or may not be.

Der Alter said:
Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs?

He didn't. He taught the body and soul are destroyed in hell (Mt. 10:28), and we should fear the One who does that destroying.

And the ones who go to the destruction of their body and soul are those who do not believe in Jesus.

Der Alte · Apr 29, 2020

Josheb said:
I just answered that question!!!
Neither response to my op reply changes the point being made, nor do they change the answers to the questions asked in this op. We can digress and discuss, debate, dispute the historical Jewish iterations of Sheol or Gehenna (you're wrong, btw; see Acts 2:38), or we can discuss the answers to the questions asked in this op. You are digressing in your own op.
The fact is Judaism was often wrong. They got the priesthood wrong. They got the monarchy wrong. They got the temple wrong. Every single one of these errors found its way into their theologies, which were wrong. Jesus stood right there in front of them healing and casting out demons, commanding nature itself and they argued over the nature of the Messiah.... with the Messiah they denied! Most of what Jesus taught can be found in the Tanakh; he didn't teach new so much as he taught anew. He was frequently correcting the misguided views of God's Law and the prophets and this is evidenced every time he says, "You have heard it said......., but I tell you..." and then he correct their error(s).
So I recommend some discernment be used when appealing to second- and third-hand extra-biblical sources, especially if they are Jewish. The Bible tells us the Sadducees did not believe in a life after death. That was the prevailing Jewish theological view.
But that has little to do with who goes to whatever hell may or may not be.
He didn't. He taught the body and soul are destroyed in hell (Mt. 10:28), and we should fear the One who does that destroying.
And the ones who go to the destruction of their body and soul are those who do not believe in Jesus.

You have not answered my question. I responded to a specific post in this thread if it was off topic talk to the other poster not me.
That someone thinks the Jews were wrong is not relevant. I quoted primary sources NOT 2d-3d hand sources. And those sources have not and cannot be refuted because they document, by Jews, a prevailing view of Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus.
If the Jewish belief in a place of eternal punishment, which they called both sheol/GeHinnom in Hebrew hades/Gehenna in Greek, was wrong, where does Jesus directly correct their views on hell?
No Jesus did NOT say souls would be destroyed in hell or anywhere else. Jesus said fear Him who can destroy body and soul in hell.
Luke records that differently

Luke_12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

What God created He can certainly destroy but there is not one single verse which says that even one soul has been or will be destroyed in hell or anywhere else.
And Jesus' teaching on this subject supports that. Matthew 25:42, Matthew 25:41, Matthew 25:46, Matthew 13:50, Matthew 18:6, Matthew 7:23, Matthew 26:24, Luke 10:12

ClementofA · Apr 29, 2020

ViaCrucis said:
Depends on what "hell" is. A literal fiery chasm filled with diabolical tortures? I doubt anyone would want that. But the state of pure and unabashed selfishness? I suspect that we are fighting day by day against that hell in ourselves.

"The whole difficulty of understanding Hell is that the thing to be understood is so nearly Nothing. But ye'll have had experiences . . . it begins with a grumbling mood, and yourself still distinct from it: perhaps criticising it. And yourself, in a dark hour, may will that mood, embrace it. Ye can repent and come out of it again. But there may come a day when you can do that no longer. Then there will be no you left to criticise the mood, nor even to enjoy it, but just the grumble itself going on forever like a machine." - C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce

"It's not a question of God `sending' us to Hell. In each of us there is something growing up which will of itself be Hell unless it is nipped in the bud." - C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock

"I mean that those who have become conscious that they have sinned against love suffer greater torment from this than from any fear of punishment. For the sorrow caused in the heart by sin against love is sharper than any torment that can be. It would be improper for a man to think that sinners in hell are deprived of the love of God. Love is the offspring of knowledge of the truth which, as is commonly confessed, is given to all. The power of love works in two ways: it torments those who have played the fool, even as happens here when a friend suffers from a friend; but it becomes a source of joy for those who have observed its duties. Thus I say that this is the torment of hell: bitter regret. But love inebriates the souls of the sons of heaven by its delectability." - St. Isaac the Syrian

-CryptoLutheran

Was not St Isaac a universalist?

St Isaac the Syrian on Universal Salvation

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

ClementofA · Apr 29, 2020

Der Alter said:
…..
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4
….

Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times

Der Alte · Apr 29, 2020

ClementofA said:
Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times

Refuted in the linked thread. And OBTW 2d-3d hand quotes from anonymous websites are not convincing. I research and quote the ECF myself.

ClementofA · Apr 29, 2020

Der Alter said:
Refuted in the linked thread. And OBTW 2d-3d hand quotes from anonymous websites are not convincing. I research and quote the ECF myself.

In that thread i've quoted - real - researchers. Unlike your "amateur hour" so called "research".

amateur hour - Google Search

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/FailingMixedHamadryas-mobile.mp4

Josheb · Apr 29, 2020

Der Alter said:
You have not answered my question.

Then I guess we're done because the evidence proves otherwise and I am simply and solely going to point you back to my op-reply. So if it is imagined we're going to get into "Yes, I did." "No, you didn't" nonsensical argument then count me out. Go back and re-read my op-reply and think about that content because it does answer the question asked.If and when I read something actually attendant to that content I'll reconsider.

Der Alter said:
If the Jewish belief in a place of eternal punishment, which they called both sheol/GeHinnom in Hebrew hades/Gehenna in Greek, was wrong, where does Jesus directly correct their views on hell?

This is tiresome because I have already answered that question, too (at least in part) so now I know I'm trading posts with a poster who is unnecessarily asking questions already answered, claiming they weren't and doing nothing to change that pattern.

I don't collaborate with that practice.

Der Alter said:
No Jesus did NOT say souls would be destroyed in hell or anywhere else. Jesus said fear Him who can destroy body and soul in hell.
Luke records that differently

Der Alter said:
Luke_12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
What God created He can certainly destroy but there is not one single verse which says that even one soul has been or will be destroyed in hell or anywhere else

Yeah, we're done here. Luke doesn't even mention what occurs after being cast into hell and the practice of pitting Luke against Matthew (or any biblical author against another) is logically fallacious and exegetically erroneous. I provided the relevant text and you've ignored it. Furthermore you clearly have no idea what you're posting, because some of what you've posted proves my position, not your own.

There are two main Greek words used. One of them means "decay" or "decomposing" (phthoran), and the other literally means "killed," or "destroyed to the point of cessation of existence" (apolesai). Furthermore, in the end death itself is thrown into the fiery lake and destroyed. If death isn't destroyed then death remains, so your dissent is going to have to explain all those scriptures about death's defeat while death remains alive.

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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