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I learned to speak German when I was 12 and later on was stationed in Germany for 5.5 years . While I was in Germany, the year of Sputnik1, I started learning to speak Greek supervising Greek laborers, who spoke very little German or English.
ἀπόλλυμι/Apollumi occurs 86 times in the NT, of this 68 times, 79%, it cannot mean the destruction/annihilation which some argue supposedly occurs at the final judgment. Here is a list of those meanings.(1) ruin, (2) do not bring about his ruin, (3) put to death, the wicked tenants, (4) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death, (5) destroy the wisdom of the wise, (6) destroy the understanding, (7) lose, (8) lose the reward, (9) lose what we have worked for, (10) lose one’s life, (11) lose oneself, (12) The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’), (13) ruined, (14) die, the man dies, (15) As a cry of anguish, we are perishing!, (16) of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer, (17) die by the sword, (18) die of hunger, (19) be corrupted, (20) killed by the snakes, (21) those who are lost, (22) of things be lost, (23) pass away, (24) be ruined, (26) of bursting wineskins, (25) fading beauty, (26) transitory beauty of gold, (27) passing splendor, (28) Of earthly food, (29) spoiled honey, (30) Of falling hair, (31) a member or organ of the body, (32) remnants of food, (33) of wine that has lost its flavor, (34) of sheep gone astray, (35) Of a lost son [that returned].I'm using my hardcover Strong's Exhaustive Condordance by James Strong at home and for 622 apollumi the first words listed are -"to destroy fully". Although I'm sure utterly would be the same.
Is the God who is the God of limited, with UN before it, able to destroy fully & to raise from the dust of that encounter a new vessel ? ?
If everyone was going to be saved then such scriptures as Matthew 7:13-14 or Matthew 25:30 would make no sense at all.
Matthew 7:13-14 KJB
"13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."
Matthew 25:30 KJB
"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Matthew 25:41 KJB
" “Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
Wrong! Scripture does NOT say that all will bow "in reverent love for their Maker." etc.
But the "fearful, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, whoremongers, sorcerers, idolaters, liars" etc. who denied God and Christ all their lives will be forced to their knees and forced to proclaim that Jesus is Lord. This is another important point it is recorded seven times in scripture.
1. Psalms 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2. Matthew 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
3. Mark 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
4. Luke 20:42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Luke 20:43 Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
5. Acts of the apostles 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
6. Hebrews 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
7. Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;. Hebrews 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
What does “make your enemies your footstool mean?” Joshua shows us in Josh. 10.
Joshua 10:17 And it was told Joshua, saying, The five kings are found hid in a cave at Makkedah.
Joshua 10:22 Then said Joshua, Open the mouth of the cave, and bring out those five kings unto me out of the cave.
Joshua 10:23 And they did so, and brought forth those five kings unto him out of the cave, the king of Jerusalem, the king of Hebron, the king of Jarmuth, the king of Lachish, and the king of Eglon.
Joshua 10:24 And it came to pass, when they brought out those kings unto Joshua, that Joshua called for all the men of Israel, and said unto the captains of the men of war which went with him, Come near, put your feet upon the necks of these kings. And they came near, and put their feet upon the necks of them.…
Joshua 10:26 And afterward Joshua smote them, and slew them, and hanged them on five trees: and they were hanging upon the trees until the evening.
…..Scripture says that every knee will bow but only believers will do so willingly in love and faith, the others will be conquered enemies.
By asking that question, that kind of negates what Christ is teaching in Matthew 10:28.
Matthew 25:41 KJB
" “Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
Not necessarily but these do.
XYZ said:It is repeating a line of argument that, so far, you have not even come close to successfully refuting.
XYZ said:It is not an assumption that Matthew 25:46 employs a parallel, but a plain fact.
XYZ said:Let us look at this verse again:
"And these shall go away into eternal (aiōnios) punishment: but the righteous into life eternal (aiōnios)" (Mt.25:26).
Since the structure of this verse is best described as being a "parallelism" then the Greek word aiōnios must carry with it the same meaning in both instances where it is used.
By asking that question, that kind of negates what Christ is teaching in Matthew 10:28.
Nonsense. Jesus was not deceptive. He said what He meant and meant what He said. Where did Jesus ever say or imply that there was reconciliation after death? Jesus did not say "There are few that find it now but they will find it by and by."This scripture has been addressed numerous times already in this thread. It says 'few there be that find it' not 'few there be that will ever find it.' And this text does nothing to negate universal salvation. I think we can all agree that the path towards repentance and wholeness is narrow and difficult to find.
Nonsense! Here are the last 2 vss. in that parable.The Parable of the Talents has been widely misunderstood. Most assume that the parable is about the Kingdom of Heaven but it is not. It is about the Kingdom of this world and the master is King Herod. The unprofitable servant is the one who does not serve the kingdom of this world and is cast out into the outer darkness.
Unsupported supposition.The everlasting fire = Lake of Fire = consuming fire of God.
Greek is now, and has always been, the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who, better than the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the Eastern Orthodox Bible [EOB], know the correct meaning of Greek words, e.g. “Gehenna,””aionios” and “kolasis?”
…..Note, in the EOB, footnote pg.108
Hades is the realm of the dead. The upper part of hades was considered to be luminous and it was called “paradise” or "Abraham's bosom.” Hades is not to be confused with hell (Gehenna) which is the final place of state or place of the damned (“the lake of’ fire”).
The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.First vs. 42 begins with a warning of a fate worse than death so it hardly follows that in vs. 49 Jesus is saying all mankind will be saved, righteous and unrighteous alike, even after death.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
50 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.
Then Jesus describes a place where the fire is not quenched and the worm of each person in that place never dies.
Then Jesus states "every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt." What does that mean?
Ezekiel 43:25Every offering must be without blemish before they are salted, they are not made "without blemish" by the fire/salt. So vs. 49 refers only to followers of Jesus not all mankind.
25 Seven days shalt thou prepare every day a goat for a sin offering: they shall also prepare a young bullock, and a ram out of the flock, without blemish.
Leviticus 2:13
13 And every oblation of thy meat offering shalt thou season with salt; neither shalt thou suffer the salt of the covenant of thy God to be lacking from thy meat offering: with all thine offerings thou shalt offer salt.
Then Jesus states "every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt." What does that mean?
Ezekiel 43:25
25 Seven days shalt thou prepare every day a goat for a sin offering: they shall also prepare a young bullock, and a ram out of the flock, without blemish.
Leviticus 2:13
13 And every oblation of thy meat offering shalt thou season with salt; neither shalt thou suffer the salt of the covenant of thy God to be lacking from thy meat offering: with all thine offerings thou shalt offer salt.
Every offering must be without blemish before they are salted, they are not made "without blemish" by the fire/salt. So vs. 49 refers to followers of Jesus not all mankind.
49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
But if you do not want to spend an eternity with him, he will simply let that be the case.
Even Satan will be turned from ashes from within.
The word destroy (apollumi in the Greek) means to destroy "fully".
Universal Restoration (UR) is not a get-out-of-hell-free card.If everyone was going to be saved then such scriptures as Matthew 7:13-14 or Matthew 25:30 would make no sense at all.
Matthew 7:13-14 KJB
"13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."
Matthew 25:30 KJB
"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Matthew 25:41 KJB
" “Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
What do you make of this?Christ says that there is a gulf and I believe that. And I believe there is great anguish on the one side. But great white throne of judgement has not happened yet so no one is actually burning in a lake of fire right now.
But after the books are opened after judgement, those not in the book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire. Then hell and death are thrown into the lake of fire. God is a consuming fire and those will be blotted out. This is the second death, the death of the soul. No one will be burning forever. A loving God would not do that. But if you do not want to spend an eternity with him, he will simply let that be the case.
Even Satan will be turned from ashes from within.
And yes, that is eternal, there is not coming back from that. And the smoke rises forever, that is eternal.
Christ puts it very simply in Matthew 10:28
Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
The word destroy (apollumi in the Greek) means to destroy "fully".
To say that the soul lives forever in hell would be a straight up contradiction of Christ's teaching here.
Nonsense. Jesus was not deceptive. He said what He meant and meant what He said. Where did Jesus ever say or imply that there was reconciliation after death? Jesus did not say "There are few that find it now but they will find it by and by."
Nonsense. Jesus was not deceptive. He said what He meant and meant what He said. Where did Jesus ever say or imply that there was reconciliation after death? Jesus did not say "There are few that find it now but they will find it by and by."
You fail to see the structure of Matthew 25. The three parables are meant to contrast His Kingdom with the Kingdom of Earth, and reveal how His followers can participate in serving either Kingdom through their beliefs and behaviors.Nonsense! Here are the last 2 vss. in that parable.
Matthew 25:29-30This is not about King Herod. Herod beheaded his foes. This is what Jesus meant when He said outer darkness.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Unsupported supposition.
What do you make of this?
1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
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