Who did the FISH Symbol belong to first? - Jews or Christians?

[SonWorshipper]

Found this on an Orthodox site:

Just a few days ago, on our hallowed campus, I saw another example of a bigoted statement using the fish symbol. On one person's car, I saw a bumper sticker where the "icthys" on the fish symbol was replaced the word "Gefilte". For those of you who don't know, gefilte is a type of fish that Jewish people eat. In other words, this person thought it o.k. to take a sacred religious symbol for Christians and make it "cute, funny, and Jewish". Going beyond just the one car, you must realize that somewhere there is a company that mass produces this blasphemy and that there are websites, like the one mentioned above, that sell such blasphemy openly. The politically correct would probably find some way to say that that is acceptable. However, if I were to take the star of David and write on it "Ham" or "Pork, the other white meat" and put that on my car as a bumper sticker then I would be branded as intolerant, bigoted, anti-Semitic, hateful, etc. Of course I would not do that because in good conscience, out of respect for Judaism, and because I have a functioning brain, I would not adorn my car with such a symbol that makes such a statement.

This got me to wondering, who does this symbol belong to? As you see by my avatar it seems that it first belonged to the FIRST Jewish Messianic believers of the first century. This symbol is said to have been hidden by both the Orthodox/ Catholic Christian church as well as the Jewish authorities.

The Fish, I have read, is actually a good luck symbol of the Jews. Does anyone have any more info on this? It is explained that the fish was used because of the Greek rendering for Y-shua's name in Greek as such:

Iesous (Jesus; Yeshua in Hebrew)

Christos (Christ; Mashiach in Hebrew)

Theos (God)

Uios (Son)

Soter (Savior)
​

This also brings to mind that many a Shabbat table has as it's main course, Fish for dinner as well I have seen where the Catholic church also eats fish on Fridays. Is there a connection?

 

[Higher Truth]

Quote:
"This got me to wondering, who does this symbol belong to?"

I believe that the pagans used a fish symbol as a sign of dagon, which was one of their gods.This may have been the earliest use.

 

[Henaynei]

Shalom,

I have one of those symbols on my car, so does my Rabbi - I got it for him.

For us it speaks to a couple fundamental truths.
1) "Christianity" was initially a branch of Judaism
2) the symbol itself says to us "Messianic Jew"

I am truly sorry you find it to be offensive. People have been appropriating symbols for a long time. I know Christians who won't use the Rainbow because the gay community has claimed it as theirs. There are Messianics who won't use the Magen Dovid because some wiccans use it. I know people who can tell you the pagan or obscene origin or background of the triangle, the circle, the five-pointed star -- the list is lengthy.

A symbol is only that, a symbol. As such it can only carry the weight of meaning that the viewer chooses to assign to it. The outline of a fish is in no way sacred unless you assign it that value in *your* usage.

In this case we have assigned the meaning of "followers of the Great Fisher of men" to the fish and "Jewish" to the gefilte.

Shalom b'Shem Yeshua
Henaynei

 

[Henaynei]

Sorry - just re-read the original post and realize it was not *you* who posited the original or premise op-ed.

shagrined

 

[okeydokey]

I think the fish symbol is actually an egyptian hieroglyphic called a cartouche with was used to hold names of people. I took a class in college about hieroglyphics and we transliterated the hieroglyphics from aramaic.

 

[The Thadman]

I think the fish symbol is actually an egyptian hieroglyphic called a cartouche with was used to hold names of people. I took a class in college about hieroglyphics and we transliterated the hieroglyphics from aramaic.

Hieroglyphs from Aramaic? I'm baffled as to what this could be.

Aramaic in Egypt was written with Ashuri letters (also known as "Hebrew Blockletters"), not Hieroglyphs.

Shlomo,
(Peace!)
-Steve-o

 

[Woodsy]

How in the world was the fish a uniquely Jewish symbol?

 

[simchat_torah]

The origins of the fish can be found in a number of cultures:

1) The worship of pieces (sp?) in the Greek culture
2) Egyptian mythology (can find it's origins in the deitty of the Babylonians - listed below) this g-d is called Latus - symbolized by the fish
3) Babylonian Fish g-d Derketo
4) Dagon the Fish g-d of the Phillistines (can find it's origins in Derketo) [also historically shown to be worshiped by the Canaanites]
6) Ichthys, or the Fish, was one of the names of Bacchus
7) the Babylonian fish-man Oannes (came before, and was the origin of Derketo)
8) and Oannes is the first of all the fish g-ds

Oannes was a man who went into the water and was transformed into a fish - then later worshipped as a deity. This deity then came out of the waters (as a fish-man) and civilized the Babylonians teaching them science, medicines, politics, and religion.

All other fish deities (egyptian, caananite, phillistine, Greek, etc) find their origins in Oannes.

The Fish, I have read, is actually a good luck symbol of the Jews.

I have never heard this before... and I'm quite familiar with Kabbalah, which would be the only possibility of this 'luck symbol'. I am not omniscient, but I've not heard of this before.

I am reluctant to grasp hold of the supposed "first messianic symbol" (fish/mogan david/menorah) because of the true pagan origins of the fish. No where in Judaism can this 'fish symbol' be found in it's usage. Instead, we find a plethera of passages that says not to make graven images of the beasts of the fields, fish, birds, or lizzards. Thus, you'll have to excuse my reluctance to grab hold of this symbol and declare it as a true messianic symbol.

Henaynei,

I have one of those symbols on my car, so does my Rabbi....

I would like to ask you about your 'rabbi'. Is he rabbinically certified by a Beit Din? Did he attend a Yeshiva? Or do you merely refer to him as 'rabbi' because he leads your congregation? I ask for purely personal reasons.

Shalom,
Yafet.

 

[Woodsy]

Modern-day Neo-Pagans like to turn the "Jesus fish" 90 degrees (nose down) and point out that it is the ancient vesica piscis, representing the female reproductive organs, and therefore a symbol of their mother goddess.

 

[Woodsy]

Well, I know that gefilte fish is a Jewish sign! If you go into someone's house amd they're eating gefilte fish, they're almost certainly Jewish.

 

[simchat_torah]

lol w/ Tribe

Tribe, you've hit on something...Oannes, Derketo, Dagon and Latus were actually deities of fertility. In otherwords, the Neo-pagans have probably picked up that from an ancient custom/tradition. I'll check into it later.

 

[Henaynei]

Henaynei,

[/size]


I would like to ask you about your 'rabbi'. Is he rabbinically certified by a Beit Din? Did he attend a Yeshiva? Or do you merely refer to him as 'rabbi' because he leads your congregation? I ask for purely personal reasons.

Shalom,
Yafet.

I am happy to answer....
1)He is no longer "my" rabbi as we have moved from that community.
2) I know of no (well, maybe one - who came into the movement after his conservative smicha) "rabbinically" certified rabbis in the MJ movement as the term "rabbinic" tends to signify mainstream traditional (generally orthodox or conservative) Judaism and for the time being to the greater extent rabbinic and messianic are mutually exclusive. Mores the pity.
3) Yes, he was certified by a Beit Din, with the MJAA.
4) He attended the MJAA Yeshiva, not as thorough as the orthodox or conservative Yeshivot and not conferring higher degrees, nevertheless he is one of the very few MJ "rabbis" who can both speak and teach Hebrew. He knows Greek as well, I believe, though not as well as Hebrew.
5) I refer to him as Rabbi as an honorarium due him study, smicha and knowledge.

Shalom v'khesed
b'Sehm Yeshua
Henaynei

 

[ShirChadash]

bumpity

 

[LADY DI]

Shalom!!!!


Bacchaus having a fish name???
If I'm not mistaken Bacchaus was the roman god of wine,debauchery, etc, etc,
I need to dig out my old dictionary on mythology.

To the person who thought seeing gefite written in a fish was offensive, what about the fish with legs with darwin written inside????

Is there any archaeological evidence showing the same fish sign for the the worship of pagan deities???
I never had, but then I could be wrong.

 

[Sephania]

I think haveing a gefilte fish as a sign would present no problem biblically speaking as one doesn't exist from creation, just a true Jewish concoction! .

 

[simchat_torah]

Yes, he was certified by a Beit Din, with the MJAA.

hmmm... the MJAA does not have a Beit Din.

 

[simchat_torah]

Bacchaus having a fish name???
If I'm not mistaken Bacchaus was the roman god of wine,debauchery, etc, etc,

Uhhh... who mentioned Bacchuaus in relation to the fish?

Maybe I'm getting too old, but I didn't see him mentioned in this thread.

 

[LADY DI]

The origins of the fish can be found in a number of cultures:

1) The worship of pieces (sp?) in the Greek culture
2) Egyptian mythology (can find it's origins in the deitty of the Babylonians - listed below) this g-d is called Latus - symbolized by the fish
3) Babylonian Fish g-d Derketo
4) Dagon the Fish g-d of the Phillistines (can find it's origins in Derketo) [also historically shown to be worshiped by the Canaanites]
6) Ichthys, or the Fish, was one of the names of Bacchus
7) the Babylonian fish-man Oannes (came before, and was the origin of Derketo)
8) and Oannes is the first of all the fish g-ds

Oannes was a man who went into the water and was transformed into a fish - then later worshipped as a deity. This deity then came out of the waters (as a fish-man) and civilized the Babylonians teaching them science, medicines, politics, and religion.

All other fish deities (egyptian, caananite, phillistine, Greek, etc) find their origins in Oannes.
[/font]

I have never heard this before... and I'm quite familiar with Kabbalah, which would be the only possibility of this 'luck symbol'. I am not omniscient, but I've not heard of this before.

I am reluctant to grasp hold of the supposed "first messianic symbol" (fish/mogan david/menorah) because of the true pagan origins of the fish. No where in Judaism can this 'fish symbol' be found in it's usage. Instead, we find a plethera of passages that says not to make graven images of the beasts of the fields, fish, birds, or lizzards. Thus, you'll have to excuse my reluctance to grab hold of this symbol and declare it as a true messianic symbol.

Henaynei,
[/size]


I would like to ask you about your 'rabbi'. Is he rabbinically certified by a Beit Din? Did he attend a Yeshiva? Or do you merely refer to him as 'rabbi' because he leads your congregation? I ask for purely personal reasons.

Shalom,
Yafet.

Shalom!!!!

who mentioned Bacchaus?

#6 above!!!!

 

[simchat_torah]

I guess I am getting old. I saw Ichthys, and didn't bother to see Bacchus listed after that on the same line. Anyway, this comes from the book The Two Babylons, pp. 252 and 270, we read, "that Icthus, or the Fish, was one of the names of Bacchus." Alexander Hislop, the author of The Two Babylons, tells us more about latos (the Egyptian fish g-d) and shows us that many g-ds whom we might not have associated with being a 'fish g-d' were indeed known by that title:

'The name 'lat,' or the hidden one, had evidently been given, as well as Saturn, to the great Babylonian god. This is evident from the name of the fish Latus, which was worshipped along with the Egyptian Minerva, in the city of Latopolis in Egypt, now Esneh, that fish Latus evidently just being another name for the fish-god Dagon. We have seen that Ichthys, or the Fish, was one of the names of Bacchus; and the Assyrian goddess Atergatis, with her son Ichthys is said to have been cast into the lake of Ascalon.' 'That the sun-god Apollo had been known under the name of Lat, may be inferred from the Greek name of his mother-wife Leto, or in Doric, Lato, which is just the feminine of Lat'​

- Hislop, The Two Babylons, p. 270, footnote.



​

 

[simchat_torah]

see? I'm not crazy