Who comprises the Fall harvest?

[visionary]

You've already agreed that Exodus 12 contains no hint of it being prophetic.

Of course like I've said many times already, I don't consider it prophetic.

It is an analogy that Christ is the Passover lamb, a metaphor. It is not a fulfillment of any prophecy. The similarity between the two stories is nice, but not some kind of deep heavenly foreshadowing. I don't believe that in the slightest. Not even an iota. It is great poetry. Nothing more.

So.. metaphors are not prophetic?? The characteristics of the lion and the lamb form a vivid contrast of expectations when used metaphorically. While the lion is known for its strength and ferocity, the lamb is regarded as a gentle and dependent creature. Nevertheless, both are at times associated with Yeshua and work of God on God's schedule which is prophetic when prophesied, and a memorial when fulfilled.

 

[gadar perets]

You've already agreed that Exodus 12 contains no hint of it being prophetic.

Of course like I've said many times already, I don't consider it prophetic.

It is an analogy that Christ is the Passover lamb, a metaphor. It is not a fulfillment of any prophecy. The similarity between the two stories is nice, but not some kind of deep heavenly foreshadowing. I don't believe that in the slightest. Not even an iota. It is great poetry. Nothing more.

What!! Oy vey! It is a prophetic shadow fulfilled by Yeshua. So, in other words you reject Paul's writings on the subject? I'll ask you again; are you an anti-Paulist?

 

[visionary]

The very fact that "mo'edim" means "appointed times" is your first clue that this is prophetic.

 

[Meowzltov]

What!! Oy vey! It is a prophetic shadow fulfilled by Yeshua. So, in other words you reject Paul's writings on the subject? I'll ask you again; are you an anti-Paulist?

I'm not at all anti-Paulist. I just don't think there is even a dash of what you are saying in Paul's writings. You can quote if you want, but I suspect it will be as with your previous quotes -- I won't see it in the text. This is not my first rodeo. I've been doing the Bible since my mom first read it to me aloud before I could read it myself. I'm familiar with the Gospels, with Paul, with Torah, etc. I don't see in them what you are saying.

 

[Meowzltov]

So.. metaphors are not prophetic??

No. Metaphors are virtually always simply poetic figurative expressions.

 

[gadar perets]

I'm not at all anti-Paulist. I just don't think there is even a dash of what you are saying in Paul's writings. You can quote if you want, but I suspect it will be as with your previous quotes -- I won't see it in the text. This is not my first rodeo. I've been doing the Bible since my mom first read it to me aloud before I could read it myself. I'm familiar with the Gospels, with Paul, with Torah, etc. I don't see in them what you are saying.

Please explain Paul's use of "shadow" in Colossians 2:16-17 or the writer of Hebrews use of "shadows" in Hebrews 10:1. Is it not a vague image of something to come in the future that would fulfill it?

 

[Meowzltov]

Please explain Paul's use of "shadow" in Colossians 2:16-17 or the writer of Hebrews use of "shadows" in Hebrews 10:1. Is it not a vague image of something to come in the future that would fulfill it?

As CS Lewis aptly put it, we live in the Shadowlands. It is heaven which is Reality. Heaven is so ultimately real, it makes this reality seem unreal.

There is a story which comes from Plato of a bunch of a guy that lives in a cave where it is dark. All he sees is shadows moving on the wall. Because it is all he sees, it is his reality. But of course, they are only shadows of those things outside the cave.

What the verses are saying is that all those things which are good in this life, all our celebrations, even the goodness of the law, are mere representations, "shadows," of the REAL goodness of being with the Lord in the afterlife, our true reward.

THAT is not the same thing as a prophecy.

 

[gadar perets]

What the verses are saying is that all those things which are good in this life, all our celebrations, even the goodness of the law, are mere representations, "shadows," of the REAL goodness of being with the Lord in the afterlife, our true reward.

THAT is not the same thing as a prophecy.

He is saying the feasts, for example, are a shadow of a coming future reality. The reality of the Passover lamb was Yeshua and his blood protecting us from death. The reality of wave sheaf offering was Yeshua's resurrection. The reality of the first fruits offering on Shavuot is the resurrection of the 288,000. The reality of Yom Teruah is the Day of YHWH when the seven trumpets of Revelation begin to sound. The reality of Yom Kippurim was Yeshua's atoning sacrifice and the ultimate Jubilee trumpet signaling the resurrection to set the captives of death free. The reality of Sukkot is the Millennial Kingdom. You may choose to believe I am wrong in the specifics I just listed, but the realities are indeed specific and not fulfilled by such a vague generality as "the REAL goodness of being with the Lord in the afterlife, our true reward." He will certainly be our reward, but before that, specific aspects of YHWH's plan of salvation will be fulfilled via specific realities coming.

 

[visionary]

No. Metaphors are virtually always simply poetic figurative expressions.

When we are talking financial world and I say "bear market".. while it is a metaphor, it is very visual in explaining what I am talking about, prophetic is when I talk about the future "bear market"... It is still all real.

 

[Meowzltov]

When we are talking financial world and I say "bear market".. while it is a metaphor, it is very visual in explaining what I am talking about, prophetic is when I talk about the future "bear market"... It is still all real.

I think there is a difference between forecasting a future bear market and prophecying one. If it remains a bull market, then you end up being a false prophet, which is deserving of death. If you simply make a bad forecast, then you just lose clients.

The use of the bear metaphor isn't connected to forecasting. We can be in the middle of a bear market, present tense.

 

[visionary]

I think there is a difference between forecasting a future bear market and prophecying one. If it remains a bull market, then you end up being a false prophet, which is deserving of death. If you simply make a bad forecast, then you just lose clients.

The use of the bear metaphor isn't connected to forecasting. We can be in the middle of a bear market, present tense.

And the difference between forecasting and prophesying is what?

 

[Meowzltov]

He is saying the feasts, for example, are a shadow of a coming future reality.

Yes. He is saying that the joys and good things of this life are a shadow of the bliss of heaven. That's not the same thing as a prophecy. I've already said this. Please don't make me continue to repeat it. You can disagree if you want, but please acknowledge that you at least understand what I'm saying.

I understand what you are saying, the connections you are making with this is that, and that is this other thing, but I can't disagree more strongly. I think you couldn't be further away from the truth, that you are going down a rabbit hole.

 

[visionary]

Yes. He is saying that the joys and good things of this life are a shadow of the bliss of heaven. That's not the same thing as a prophecy. I've already said this. Please don't make me continue to repeat it. You can disagree if you want, but please acknowledge that you at least understand what I'm saying.

I understand what you are saying, the connections you are making with this is that, and that is this other thing, but I can't disagree more strongly. I think you couldn't be further away from the truth, that you are going down a rabbit hole.

It is the catholic thing... she can not stray from.... But I agree with you, gadar perets, he is saying that the feasts are prophetic.

 

[gadar perets]

Yes. He is saying that the joys and good things of this life are a shadow of the bliss of heaven. That's not the same thing as a prophecy. I've already said this. Please don't make me continue to repeat it. You can disagree if you want, but please acknowledge that you at least understand what I'm saying.

I understand what you are saying and totally disagree. The feasts have absolutely nothing to do with the "bliss of heaven". They concern realities that are coming on this earth. Explain to me how Yom Teruah is a shadow of the "bliss of heaven".

 

[Lulav]

Sir, you are confusing apples and oranges. Just because wheat is used as a metaphor in one parable, doesn't mean that this is a consistant metaphor throughout the Bible. I disagree with you about Shavuot and First Fruits and the Summer Harvest, they are not prophetic. They do not refer to believers.

How would you explain these verses?

Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, with whom there is no change or shifting shadow.He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we would be a kind of firstfruits of His creation.

For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him. Then the end will come

Israel was holiness unto the L-RD, and the firstfruits of his increase: all that devour him shall offend; evil shall come upon them, saith the L-RD.

Then I looked and saw the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred forty-four thousand who had His name and His Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and the loud rumbling of thunder. And the sound I heard was like harpists strumming their harps. 3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. And no one could learn the song except the one hundred forty-four thousand who had been redeemed from the earth 4 These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they are virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever He goes. They have been redeemed from among men as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.…

I stand by what I said.

Yes there are LOTS of MJs who do not view the feasts as prophetic. Your view is actually very new. If I am not mistaken, it originated with First Fruits of Zion, but don't quote me on that. I used to hate FFOZ, but they have come a long way. I still don't like their "Feast are prophecies" thing.

It's not all that new. January 1, 1993 ( 24 years ago) a Messianic Rabbi, known personally to some on these forums wrote a book called 'God's Appointed Times' His name, Barney Kasdan. As he says in his opening words in that book

"Throughout Church History there has been a chasm of misunderstanding between the Church (the body of Messiah ) and the Jewish people. Both Christians and Jews have falsely concluded that there is little real of practical connection between Christianity and Jewish life. However these views are based on either ignorance of false presuppositions."​

and he goes on to say...

It is, I believe a tragedy that the Christian community has not understood, for the most part, the rich heritage on which its faith is built. Many are wondering how they can understand the Jewishness of their faith in a practical way. The biblical Holy days are a pragmatic way. These feasts were revealed by God for his own particular reasons, and through them all believers can be blessed, Jews and Gentiles. ​

What is the purpose of these Holy days?

he says: The Feasts of the Lord, or biblical holy days teach us about the nature of God and his plan for mankind. ​

In each one of the Feasts he explains the Traditional Jewish Observance and the Prophetic Fulfillment or fulfillment to come.

Look, I'm pretty much a quasi Orthodox Jew who has become a Christian. To me, saying that Yeshua is the Passover sacrifice is a metaphor, not a fulfillment of prophecy.

I'm not sure I know what 'quasi Orthodox Jew' means but what I do know is that you were a Christian first (wasn't your father a Pastor?) then a Messianic and then you decided to convert to Judaism in which you denied Yeshua and then you became Catholic. So you really can't make a firm stand on your personal beliefs so it stands to reason that you can't on this issue, especially trying to speak for all Messianics.

The Tanakh stands on its own. Yeshua practiced Judaism. Rabbinical Jews are "us" and not "them" for Messianic Jews. I tend to read the Tanakh the way that Jews read it, and struggle with Christian interpretation, although I understand it is what my Church teaches. To some degree, I make an effort, but I'll only go so far. I am a Messianic Jew because as a believer in Yeshua, I refuse to give up my Jewish practices and identity. That includes refusing to adopt a lot of what I see as excessive Christian gloss of the Tanakh.

Do you realize that you are calling yourself a Messianic Jew while at the same time saying what we believe in this thread is Christian gloss?

It's one thing to say that Isaiah 53 is about an actual person--I understand there are standard verses that all Christians agree are messianic prophecies, and is based on the use of the 3rd person singular in the text. It's quite another to say the Summer Harvest is about believers. It's esoteric and has no basis in the text -- you can't take a metaphor in one passage and use that metaphor in a completely different book.

So you don't think G-ds word is in harmony with itself?

 

[Lulav]

You've already agreed that Exodus 12 contains no hint of it being prophetic.

Of course like I've said many times already, I don't consider it prophetic.

It is an analogy that Christ is the Passover lamb, a metaphor. It is not a fulfillment of any prophecy. The similarity between the two stories is nice, but not some kind of deep heavenly foreshadowing. I don't believe that in the slightest. Not even an iota. It is great poetry. Nothing more.

So Passover is poetry?

5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:

Yeshua was without sin, unblemished, a male he represented both the passover lamb and the yom kippur goat as a sinless man who had the sins of the world placed upon him by the priests.


6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.

Yeshua rode into Jerusalem and was there amoung all the people on Nissan 10

In preparation for Passover, he went to the Temple and cleansed it as one does to prepare for Passover - he drove out the chametz.

6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.

The congregation was given a choice, Barabbas or Jesus

There's more but hardly poetic

As CS Lewis aptly put it, we live in the Shadowlands. It is heaven which is Reality. Heaven is so ultimately real, it makes this reality seem unreal.

There is a story which comes from Plato of a bunch of a guy that lives in a cave where it is dark. All he sees is shadows moving on the wall. Because it is all he sees, it is his reality. But of course, they are only shadows of those things outside the cave.

What the verses are saying is that all those things which are good in this life, all our celebrations, even the goodness of the law, are mere representations, "shadows," of the REAL goodness of being with the Lord in the afterlife, our true reward.

THAT is not the same thing as a prophecy.

You were asked about what Paul said, in the bible, and you answer with words from CS Lewis and Plato.


The seven Appointments with the L-RD the moedim are not about the afterlife, they are about our life on earth and His plan of Salvation to bring us back to him so we can spend the 'afterlife' with him.

His plan of Salvation
His plan of Yeshua

It was fully explained in Exodus that Passover was the beginning of this plan.

Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the LORD,

1. I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians,
2. and I will rid you out of their bondage,
   
3. and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments:
4. And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God

Yes. He is saying that the joys and good things of this life are a shadow of the bliss of heaven. That's not the same thing as a prophecy. I've already said this. Please don't make me continue to repeat it. You can disagree if you want, but please acknowledge that you at least understand what I'm saying.

I understand what you are saying, the connections you are making with this is that, and that is this other thing, but I can't disagree more strongly. I think you couldn't be further away from the truth, that you are going down a rabbit hole.

I've never heard this view before is this what the RCC teaches?

 

[visionary]

It makes sense since the Catholics do not teach anything about the Lord's feasts... CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Ecclesiastical Feasts

 

[gadar perets]

It makes sense since the Catholics do not teach anything about the Lord's feasts... CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Ecclesiastical Feasts

Your link mentions a multitude of man made feasts, but only one Scriptural feast, Pentecost. Sad indeed.

 

[Meowzltov]

So Passover is poetry?

Passover is the celebration of God delivering us from Slavery in Egypt. It is more than symbol. In the Passover Seder, we return to the event and go through it.

It is not prophetic about Yeshua, however. In THAT sense it is only poetic metaphor.

 

[Meowzltov]

I've never heard this view before is this what the RCC teaches?

It has been the view of every church that I've ever attended. I never even heard the view that the feasts were prophetic until I was in my 40's and even then I heard it through the grapevine.