Who chose who???

[Shulamite]

"You did NOT choose Me, I chose you." John 15:16

Now..... bear with me here....
If we isolate that one statement of Jesus up above, what do we get?

When Jesus tells sinners, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life" how many unbelievers tell us as Christians that "we are narrow-minded and Jesus did not really mean that!" I have had many unbelievers tell me that I am narrow minded for telling them that Jesus meant what He said in that one simple statement: He is the ONLY Way.

So, is it our way or His way? Is it our choice or His choice? How many ways or "choosers" can there be?

Now, let's get back to Jesus' simple statement of: "You DID NOT choose Me, I chose you."
Yet, this statement is argued with! Why? It's so simple. It says what it says, yet there is opposition to it just like there is opposition when we tell the lost that Jesus is the Only way.

Hmm..... For those who feel that YOU chose Jesus, that YOU were able to come to Him apart from the Father drawing you or that you could perceive the Kingdom of heaven BEFORE being born again, then we have to rewrite that statement of Jesus to say: "You chose Me and I did not choose you.

WE cannot see (perceive) the Kingdom unless we are FIRST born again. Who gives birth to who first? Who chooses FIRST?

It's so simple, yet argued with at every turn:
You did NOT choose Me....I chose you.

 

[Jpark]

Romans 2:4. Enough said.

 

[baryogenesis]

God is the sovereign Creator and Sustainer of the universe, the Prime Mover Unmoved. For us there is only the chimera of choice, behind this dark glass in a world filled with illusion. We were bought at a price and are not part of this world; we do not have a say in the matter. And good thing, too, as we only have incomplete knowledge and our "wisdom" is as foolishness.

 

[Brother Chris]

"You did NOT choose Me, I chose you." John 15:16

Now..... bear with me here....
If we isolate that one statement of Jesus up above, what do we get?

When Jesus tells sinners, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life" how many unbelievers tell us as Christians that "we are narrow-minded and Jesus did not really mean that!" I have had many unbelievers tell me that I am narrow minded for telling them that Jesus meant what He said in that one simple statement: He is the ONLY Way.

So, is it our way or His way? Is it our choice or His choice? How many ways or "choosers" can there be?

Now, let's get back to Jesus' simple statement of: "You DID NOT choose Me, I chose you."
Yet, this statement is argued with! Why? It's so simple. It says what it says, yet there is opposition to it just like there is opposition when we tell the lost that Jesus is the Only way.

Hmm..... For those who feel that YOU chose Jesus, that YOU were able to come to Him apart from the Father drawing you or that you could perceive the Kingdom of heaven BEFORE being born again, then we have to rewrite that statement of Jesus to say: "You chose Me and I did not choose you.

WE cannot see (perceive) the Kingdom unless we are FIRST born again. Who gives birth to who first? Who chooses FIRST?

It's so simple, yet argued with at every turn:
You did NOT choose Me....I chose you.

Brother, I whole heartedly agree with you. But unfortunately those who reject God's sovereignty in salvation (election/predestination) will always use the same excuse to reject it: That verse is taken out of it's content or it's a wrong interpretation. Even though the bible says what is says, clearly, we can not convince anyone of the truth of Scripture. Only the Holy Spirit can do that.

 

[Dok]

We were bought at a price and are not part of this world

My prayer is that every last Christian living now and those to come will simply weep and marvel at this bless-ed truth. I get glory bumps just reading it!

 

[Shulamite]

Brother, I whole heartedly agree with you. But unfortunately those who reject God's sovereignty in salvation (election/predestination) will always use the same excuse to reject it: That verse is taken out of it's content or it's a wrong interpretation. Even though the bible says what is says, clearly, we can not convince anyone of the truth of Scripture. Only the Holy Spirit can do that.

Very true...
All we have of Him, all we do understand or "see" is GIVEN by Him. We can only understand what His Spirit enables us to understand. It's not "learned", it's a Gift of the Spirit.

 

[themuzicman]

"You did NOT choose Me, I chose you." John 15:16

Now..... bear with me here....
If we isolate that one statement of Jesus up above, what do we get?

When Jesus tells sinners, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life" how many unbelievers tell us as Christians that "we are narrow-minded and Jesus did not really mean that!" I have had many unbelievers tell me that I am narrow minded for telling them that Jesus meant what He said in that one simple statement: He is the ONLY Way.

So, is it our way or His way? Is it our choice or His choice? How many ways or "choosers" can there be?

Now, let's get back to Jesus' simple statement of: "You DID NOT choose Me, I chose you."
Yet, this statement is argued with! Why? It's so simple. It says what it says, yet there is opposition to it just like there is opposition when we tell the lost that Jesus is the Only way.

Hmm..... For those who feel that YOU chose Jesus, that YOU were able to come to Him apart from the Father drawing you or that you could perceive the Kingdom of heaven BEFORE being born again, then we have to rewrite that statement of Jesus to say: "You chose Me and I did not choose you.

WE cannot see (perceive) the Kingdom unless we are FIRST born again. Who gives birth to who first? Who chooses FIRST?

It's so simple, yet argued with at every turn:
You did NOT choose Me....I chose you.

Jesus is speaking to his disciples before they received the Holy Spirit. The idea that Jesus chose them comes from the fact that He selected them individually to follow Him as disciples.

Has nothing to do with salvation.

 

[themuzicman]

Brother, I whole heartedly agree with you. But unfortunately those who reject God's sovereignty in salvation (election/predestination) will always use the same excuse to reject it: That verse is taken out of it's content or it's a wrong interpretation. Even though the bible says what is says, clearly, we can not convince anyone of the truth of Scripture. Only the Holy Spirit can do that.

God forbid we should read the bible for what God intended to say, rather than as Calvin misinterpreted it to mean.

 

[Eleiou]

God forbid we should read the bible for what God intended to say, rather than as Calvin misinterpreted it to mean.

Or Augustine, Luther, Zwingli, Bullinger........ Turretin, Owen, Edwards etc etc etc.

Good "luck" with your "what God intended to say" "personal" line of biblical interpretation.

 

[themuzicman]

Or Augustine, Luther, Zwingli, Bullinger........ Turretin, Owen, Edwards etc etc etc.

Good "luck" with that line of "personal" biblical interpretation.

Mine...theirs... all personal interpretation.

Augustine's "council" on this was rejected by the RCC as not inerrant.

The rest are just adherents to a novel systematic theology not known before 1500AD, from which some claim that there were no Christians before them.

 

[Pinkman]

Very true...
All we have of Him, all we do understand or "see" is GIVEN by Him. We can only understand what His Spirit enables us to understand. It's not "learned", it's a Gift of the Spirit.

It's not "learned", it's a Gift of the Spirit.

I agree. Sadly Calvinist nobdysfool does not.

QUOTE=nobdysfool;58751985]T...... I can see where that alone could cause some confusion for the less learned, as we're seeing here.[/QUOTE]

As you said you Calvinist all agreed with each other.

 

[Eleiou]

Mine...theirs... all personal interpretation.

Augustine's "council" on this was rejected by the RCC as not inerrant.

The rest are just adherents to a novel systematic theology not known before 1500AD, from which some claim that there were no Christians before them.

The Roman Catholic Church declares what is truthful to your unsettled view......... AND WHAT IS NOT? Luther & Zwingli are not adherents to John Calvin.......... but Scripture "ALONE".

 

[themuzicman]

The Roman Catholic Church declares what is truthful to your unsettled view......... AND WHAT IS NOT? Luther & Zwingli are not adherents to John Calvin.......... but Scripture "ALONE".

"Scripture alone" supports my view, and I can at least point to early church fathers who embraced free will.

OTOH, Luther's theology begins around 1550.

 

[Eleiou]

My bad, Luther wasn't an "Augustinian" monk

 

[Pinkman]

"Scripture alone" supports my view, and I can at least point to early church fathers who embraced free will.

OTOH, Luther's theology begins around 1550.

Absolutely right. Even though I have posted e.g Augustine on other threads it always gets twisted. "Middle voice" excuses or whatever.

As said above Scripture alone supports free will and that man is responsible for his sin not forced that way by God with some muddled rendition of predestination.

 

[Eleiou]

nm

 

[Skala]

God forbid we should read the bible for what God intended to say, rather than as Calvin misinterpreted it to mean.

Assertions are meaningless.

Please provide scholarly evidence, with exegesis, that anyone, anywhere, misinterpreted anything.

 

[Pinkman]

Assertions are meaningless.

Please provide scholarly evidence, with exegesis, that anyone, anywhere, misinterpreted anything.

Spurgeon : “My soul revolts at the idea of a doctrine that lays the blood of man’s soul at God’s door. I cannot conceive how any human mind, at least any Christian mind, can hold any such blasphemy as that.”

 

[Eleiou]

Spurgeon : “My soul revolts at the idea of a doctrine that lays the blood of man’s soul at God’s door. I cannot conceive how any human mind, at least any Christian mind, can hold any such blasphemy as that.”

Quote Spurgeon all you wish........ I've read and understood the sermon.

 

[themuzicman]

Assertions are meaningless.

Please provide scholarly evidence, with exegesis, that anyone, anywhere, misinterpreted anything.

What happened to "Scripture alone"? Or does that only apply to non-Calvinist commentators?

John 15:16 No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.​

Notice that Jesus is referring to those standing there, His disciples, and taht they were not chosen for salvation, but rather they might and bear fruit.

Not sure what else you want.