Who chooses who?

[Albion]

I can see your based in cause effect relationships opinion, but I view it like "Which came first the ink on the paper or the writing?"

You may see it that way, but that's not the way you presented the proposition. If God chooses those who have chosen him, he "chooses" (if that's the right word for it) only AFTER the human has decided for himself.

This is NOT a choosing on God's part but more like a ratification of the human's choice. Therefore, it's not at all a "Chicken or the egg" situation.

 

[DogmaHunter]

In the many discussions we've had about this, it's been made clear that to know the future is not, ipso facto, to predetermine the future.

Indeed, it is not the same.
But who says that the person that knows the future must be the one to predetermine the future?

What predetermines it can be something entirely different - even beyond the control of the entity that knows the future.

The larger point however, is that if you CAN know the future with 100% certainty, then it logically follows that the future, and by extension every sentient being's actions and decisions, is predetermined in some way. If you know in what exact way, then you'll know the future.

I don't see how one can know the future if the future is not predetermined.
One can't be "certain" if there is "uncertainty".

 

[ecco]

I don't see how one can know the future if the future is not predetermined.

You don't see how an Omniscient God could know an unpredetermined future? That's because you are not an Omnisient God.

An ant cannot understand how humans can build cars, because ants aren't humans.

But's that's a topic for another thread.

 

[Albion]

Indeed, it is not the same.
But who says that the person that knows the future must be the one to predetermine the future?

What predetermines it can be something entirely different - even beyond the control of the entity that knows the future.

It's an intriguing thought, but to posit that God is not in charge of things, AND ALSO that there is something or someone beyond him that IS, makes for a very difficult proposition.

The larger point however, is that if you CAN know the future with 100% certainty, then it logically follows that the future, and by extension every sentient being's actions and decisions, is predetermined in some way.

No, actually it doesn't. It merely means it is known.

I don't see how one can know the future if the future is not predetermined.

Well, let's pretend for a moment that fortune tellers, clairvoyants, premonitions, and all of that are genuine. Would you say that one or all of these people actually predetermined the events foreseen? I wouldn't.

 

[DogmaHunter]

You don't see how an Omniscient God could know an unpredetermined future? That's because you are not an Omnisient God.

An ant cannot understand how humans can build cars, because ants aren't humans.

But's that's a topic for another thread.

If we allow for magic, I guess anything is possible.
Like knowing the unknowable.

 

[DogmaHunter]

It's an intriguing thought, but to posit that God is not in charge of things, AND ALSO that there is something or someone beyond him that IS, makes for a very difficult proposition.

Only because you have a priori beliefs that don't allow for such blasphemy.

No, actually it doesn't. It merely means it is known.

And I don't see how the future can be knowable if it isn't pre-determined in some way.

Well, let's pretend for a moment that fortune tellers, clairvoyants, premonitions, and all of that are genuine.

Let's not. Let's stick to reality.

Would you say that one or all of these people actually predetermined the events foreseen? I wouldn't.

I've already told you that I don't see how it is the "clairvoyants" that has to be in control of the events.

I said that for the future to be knowable, it has to be predetermined in some way. The future tellers need not to have control over this predetermination. Only knowledge of it.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

You may see it that way, but that's not the way you presented the proposition. If God chooses those who have chosen him, he "chooses" (if that's the right word for it) only AFTER the human has decided for himself.

This is NOT a choosing on God's part but more like a ratification of the human's choice. Therefore, it's not at all a "Chicken or the egg" situation.

As far as I understand it the moment one steps on the right path then one is guided. You dont first turn left, and then follow instruction. To turn is to folow, and to follow is to be chosen, so to turn is to be chosen.

 

[ecco]

You don't see how an Omniscient God could know an unpredetermined future? That's because you are not an Omnisient God.

An ant cannot understand how humans can build cars, because ants aren't humans.

But's that's a topic for another thread.

If we allow for magic, I guess anything is possible.
Like knowing the unknowable.

Yeah, that's kinda the point isn't it.

 

[Emmy]

Dear thehehe. God is Love, and God wants loving sons and daughters. God gave us free will to choose to follow Jesus Christ our Saviour, or to go our own way. Either God our Heavenly Father, or OUTER DARKNESS, without God`s Love or Light. Matthew 22: 7: 7-10: tells us: " Ask and you shall receive," we ask God for Love and Joy, then thank God and share all love and joy with our neighbour. We keep asking for Love and Joy, then thank God and share all love and joy with our neighbour. ( neighbour is all we know and all we meet, friends and not friends) God sees our loving efforts, and God will Bless us. We might forget and stumble, but then we ask God to forgive us and carry on loving and caring and being kind and helpful.
The Bible tells us to " Repent and be Born Again," give up our selfish wishes and wants, and change to loving and caring. The Holy Spirit will help and guide us, and Jesus our Saviour will lead us all the way: JESUS IS THE WAY.
A Christian`s weapon is Love, with love we can overcome all envy and wrong behaviour. Love will ALWAYS be the Victor, even if it takes a bit longer. Let us all choose Jesus Christ, He died that we might live. Satan and his followers will run away from all love and compassion. Who chooses who? God gives us the choice, God is Love and God wants our love, freely given and NO conditions asked. I say this with love, thehehe. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

 

[jayem]

It is traditional Christian doctrine that God is sovereign, and has a plan for the universe. So if God is truly sovereign, then nothing can happen that is not in accordance with his grand plan for the universe. Meaning that whether I ever become a believer, or remain a non-believer, must also be part of God's plan. The only way I have a choice is if God allows the universe, and people such as I who are part of it, to go their own way. Which means God is not sovereign.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

We have free will... but what that is does anyone know? Maybe its that our actions are not deductively implies by our circumstances.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

JAyem.

Not necessarily. If God chose and has foreknowledge then he knows what will happen, necessarily, but that doesnt make what happens a necessary truth...

 

[Deidre32]

I think that God is always pursuing us. I left the faith for a few years, and was an atheist. He pursued me ...and eventually, I accepted His invitation to come back.