• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Daniel Martinovich

Friend
Site Supporter
Oct 7, 2011
2,048
593
Southwest USA
Visit site
✟531,611.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Just the little snippet Lulav provided was enough to know whoever is saying these things doesn’t just have psychological problems but has issues with demons as she falsely accuses everyone and everything. Not that I think you shouldn’t be, but your being way to generous with her. I read about half your article. Sheesh. That is amazing that Christians would know so little about their Bibles and reality that they would even give the things that book says a moment of their thought. But i guess this is the Bible ignorant culture we live in.
 
Upvote 0

FredVB

Regular Member
Mar 11, 2010
5,074
1,030
America
Visit site
✟331,959.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The KJVO movement in the church is divisive and nearly separatist, and I really see those having that position are without real basis, from the Bible passages themselves or anywhere else. The KJV though I really respect it is still a translation by men, not God's special chosen translation, it is not without error, which I can spot, and is antiquated, as I showed to myself asking a Bible teacher with that position about the meaning of a passage.
 
Upvote 0

Jipsah

Blood Drinker
Aug 17, 2005
13,979
4,574
72
Franklin, Tennessee
✟301,301.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Whatever differences there may be, they don't prove an error. Cultural contexts and language usage easily explain it. Per Occam's Razor and so forth, there's no need to seek an elaborate conspiracy theory when a simple explanation is available.
Occam's Razor provides boring answers. Conspiracies and woowoo are a lot more fun.
 
Upvote 0

Yahudim

Y'shua HaMoshiach Messianic
Site Supporter
Sep 30, 2004
3,993
622
Deep in the Heart of Texas
✟182,948.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Shalom Shalom,

For those of you that think the Septuagint is fake, it doesn't take much research to prove you wrong. Perhaps you might start with Biblical Archaeology. There are a plethora of related sources that can confirm their position on this matter.

It is also worthy of note that the Textus Receptus is based on the Masoretic text; a version of TaNaK that was conceived and written about a 1000 years after Messiah Yeshua (Jesus the Christ). It does not match the original text and has been proven to have certain omissions and additions, whether deliberate or otherwise. Further, the Masorets added vowel points. This is an important point in that pronunciation in Hebrew is rightly based on context. By predetermining the pronunciation, the Masorets determine the meaning of the words rather than letting the context provided by the author determine its meaning. This of course, leading to errant translations into other languages - such as English.

Adonai commanded us not to add to or take away from His Word. This seems to be a prime example of just that.

Hope this helps!
 
Last edited:
Reactions: daq and HARK!
Upvote 0

daq

Messianic
Jan 26, 2012
5,128
1,155
Devarim 11:21
Visit site
✟184,558.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private

One of the most positive proofs for the most likely correct form of the Hebrew text in the first century is Josephus: for although people often assume that he is simply using the LXX-Septuagint in his Antiquities, especially when it comes to the genealogies of the antediluvian patriarchs and the flood narrative, that is not what he himself claims. He plainly states in several different places that he is translating the Hebrew scriptures of his day into the Greek tongue or language.

That is a huge difference from what is generally, mistakenly, assumed: for if indeed this is true then it means that his Hebrew text must have contained the same numbers for the genealogies of the antediluvian patriarchs and the flood narrative which are still found in the Septuagint, the only exception being the begetting ages of Methuselah and Lamek, which are corrupted in the majority text of the OG LXX but still found in other lesser extant LXX texts, (the correct readings are not in the OG LXX because it also is a composite or morph text like our modern N/T Greek texts). Josephus also confirms that the Hebrew scriptures contained a history of five thousand years in his day.

“But let no one blame me for writing down everything of this nature, as I find it in our ancient books; for as to that matter, I have plainly assured those that think me defective in any such point, or complain of my management, and have told them, in the beginning of this history, that I intended to do no more than translate the Hebrew books into the Greek language, and promised them to explain those facts, without adding anything to them of my own, or taking anything away from them.” (Josephus, Antiquities 10:218)

“I suppose that, by my books of the Antiquities of the Jews, most excellent Epaphroditus, I have made it evident to those who peruse them, that our Jewish nation is of very great antiquity, and had a distinct subsistence of its own originally; as also I have therein declared how we came to inhabit this country wherein we now live. Those Antiquities contain the history of five thousand years, and are taken out of our sacred books; but are translated by me into the Greek tongue.” (Josephus, Against Apion 1.1)

Josephus, Antiquities, Book 1, Chapter 3:3-4
3. This calamity happened in the six hundredth year of Noah's government, in the second month, called by the Macedonians Dius, but by the Hebrews Marchesuan: for so did they order their year in Egypt. But Moses appointed that Nisan, which is the same with Xanthicus, should be the first month for their festivals, because he brought them out of Egypt in that month: so that this month began the year as to all the solemnities they observed to the honor of God, although he preserved the original order of the months as to selling and buying, and other ordinary affairs. Now he says that this flood began on the twenty-seventh day of the forementioned month; and this was two thousand six [two] hundred and fifty-six years from Adam, the first man; and the time is written down in our sacred books, those who then lived having noted down, with great accuracy, both the births and deaths of illustrious men.
4. For indeed Seth was born when Adam was in his two hundred and thirtieth year, who lived nine hundred and thirty years. Seth begat Enos in his two hundred and fifth year; who, when he had lived nine hundred and twelve years, delivered the government to Cainan his son, whom he had in his hundred and ninetieth year. He lived nine hundred and five years. Cainan, when he had lived nine hundred and ten years, had his son Malaleel, who was born in his hundred and seventieth year. This Malaleel, having lived eight hundred and ninety-five years, died, leaving his son Jared, whom he begat when he was in his hundred and sixty-fifth year. He lived nine hundred and sixty-two years; and then his son Enoch succeeded him, who was born when his father was one hundred and sixty-two years old. Now he, when he had lived three hundred and sixty-five years, departed and went to God; whence it is that they have not written down his death. Now Mathusela, the son of Enoch, who was born to him when he was one hundred and sixty-five years old, had Lamech for his son when he was one hundred and eighty-seven years of age; to whom he delivered the government, when he had retained it nine hundred and sixty-nine years. Now Lamech, when he had governed seven hundred and seventy-seven years, appointed Noah, his son, to be ruler of the people, who was born to Lamech when he was one hundred and eighty-two years old, and retained the government nine hundred and fifty years. These years collected together make up the sum before set down. But let no one inquire into the deaths of these men; for they extended their lives along together with their children and grandchildren; but let him have regard to their births only.

The statement two thousand six hundred and fifty six years from Adam in the above cannot be correct, and is the only thing necessary to be corrected in the text, (which I have done here), because it cannot be true when the rest of the numbers in the passage are added together. The correct number is two thousand two hundred and fifty six years from Adam, which, when the numbers having been changed in the Masoretic Hebrew text are added back in, is the correct number: for six hundred years were removed from the genealogy of the antediluvian patriarchs in the Hebrew text of Genesis 5, which now amounts to one thousand six hundred and fifty six years from Adam to the flood, (1656+600=2256).

The overall point here is that Josephus states that he himself was translating the Hebrew text of his day and the numbers he says were in the text agree with the LXX-Septuagint all the way through up to the begetting ages of Methuselah and Lamek. That's the important part because that is the portion where six hundred years appear to be missing from the modern Hebrew text.

@HARK!

As for the OP, when Kainan the son of Arphaxad is included in the text of the Genesis 11 genealogy, the chronology from the birth of Henok to 70AD is 4,900 years, that is, seventy generations, or one hundred Yoblim, or the ten great weeks of Henok.

70*70 = 4,900
100*49 = 4,900
10*490 = 4,900

The Luke genealogy is therefore correct, and just as the Lukan genealogy shows, there are seventy generations from Henok to Meshiah when Kainan the son of Arphaxad is included, and seventy-seven generations from Adam to Meshiah. The Luke genealogy is perfect, (numerically speaking), and the LXX is also correct, and Kainan the son of Arphaxad must be included.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Yahudim

Y'shua HaMoshiach Messianic
Site Supporter
Sep 30, 2004
3,993
622
Deep in the Heart of Texas
✟182,948.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
So far I completely agree with your assertions and your math. But in the larger sense, the question of who did what and why seems a bit more complex. What I find intriguing is that the 'DSS' community preserved various conflicting accounts of ancient scriptural traditions, for instance; the Hebrew TaNaK, the Greek Septuagint and the Samaritan Pentateuch being one example. @HARK! - ing (pun intended) back the the infamous account of Genesis 6, ala 'the sons of Elohim' and 'the daughters of humans', we find a curious anomaly in the Samaritan Pentateuch at Deuteronomy 32:8-9, where the Masoretic text, the Septuagint and the Samaritan Pentateuch do not agree. Personally, I find this exposition by Dr. Michael S. Heiser to be an interesting take on this exception, how it might be understood and how it may have come to pass.

There is no doubt that there are textual differences to be found when surveying these source texts. However to ascribe intent (as some other posters to this thread have done) because it aligns with a purported cause, is a less than cautious approach. I am reminded of the Book of Job and the final word given by the Creator. We should all be a little more circumspect in our deliberations on the whys and more thorough in our examination of the whats - as you, my brother, have so masterfully done here. Kudos!

*EDIT - corrected the verse number in Deuteronomy.
 
Last edited:
Reactions: daq
Upvote 0

Yahudim

Y'shua HaMoshiach Messianic
Site Supporter
Sep 30, 2004
3,993
622
Deep in the Heart of Texas
✟182,948.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Another issue that has not been adequately addressed in this thread, is the difference between Eastern and Western philosophies of interpretation. So I am linking this article from the AHRC website entitled, "Redefining Biblical Hebrew Words By Jeff A. Benner", explaining some of those differences. Hopefully, participants in this thread will realize that it is not just the words that are written in scripture that matter. Instead it is a combination of words and how they were intended to be understood that ultimately matters.
 
Reactions: daq
Upvote 0