Who cares about the age of the earth, or space?

solarwave said:

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth

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The "earth is the elder"*, and the Genesis 1 record shows us that the heavens are sprung forth -have their origin- from the waters of earth, divided, and the heavens being stretched out between the waters. Researching all the meanings of the Hebrew letter shin gives us clues that the letter "shin" which is tooth [two teeth, in fact; the incisors, which cut], has a connection to a cutting, and a raising up, a climbing;
therefore the heavens are named by the Creator as; the waters, cut [divided waters into two] /and raised aloft] שמים/ ש- מים Gen 2:4 These [are] the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

*Gen 5:32 And Noah was five hundred years old: and Noah begat Shem, Ham, and Japheth.Gen 10:21 Unto Shem also, the father of all the children of Eber, the brother of Japheth the elder, even to him were [children] born.

Jer 10:12 He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.
Jer 51:15 He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heaven by his understanding.Isa 45:12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, [even] my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

ivebeenshown said:

Indeed, which in light of the described purpose of the heavens in Genesis 1 designates them to be considered separate in purpose. However, I don't think Genesis 1 contains within it the proper support to interpret the geocentric model -- yeshuasavedme tried to show me how it does, but it still stands that God could have set the earth in motion (that is, based only from Genesis 1.)

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You're getting there!

They are separate in purpose. Nowhere else did God place humanity. He put us on Earth. A place distinctly different from the rest of the heavens. Even through all of the advancements in astronomical discoveries, nothing like Earth has been found. The number of puzzle pieces that are necessary for life to be sustained on a planet is incredible and they only exist here, on this planet, where God placed us.

And God did indeed set the Earth in motion. The physical, observable evidence of every other planet in the solar system attests to the accuracy of the heliocentric model. Along those same lines, the study of every other observable system in the universe operates on the same gravitational model as everything else, including the Earth moving around the Sun. Also, once you understand the intricacies of how unique our planet is, it makes the fact that God designed this whole creation as a place for us to live, for our joy and for His glory, you really start to see the delicate care that was involved.

All of the laws of physics and chemistry and biology, which were established and developed and enacted by God, have culminated in one great living example of God's mighty providence...Earth. Our beautiful, warm, wet ball of rock, flying through space on an "unmoveable" path, "unshaken" for all ages, giving testimony that "since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." (Romans 1:20)

solarwave said:

But why isn't the earth a square if the Bible says four corners? Why can't the circle be the metaphor?

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The "Bible" does not say "corners" as in angles of a square or of a rectangle or any other shape. English translators are not inspired, and they do not give the translations based on context, in so many ways, that it is impossible to understand the Word of God and the doctrines of the Word using the biased translations of English translators. You need to go to the original words in the original languages and lay the Word/Scriptures out "side by side" [comparing Scripture with Scripture], to "rightly divide" it".

I posted already and so have others that the word corners is not angles, but means "wings", from which word in Hebrew we get "canopy". The winds are four, with sub-winds, and they are the "wings" of the earth, as to their forces directed by angels over them.

Rev 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind/s should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

jonathan180iq said:

You're getting there!

They are separate in purpose. Nowhere else did God place humanity. He put us on Earth. A place distinctly different from the rest of the heavens. Even through all of the advancements in astronomical discoveries, nothing like Earth has been found. The number of puzzle pieces that are necessary for life to be sustained on a planet is incredible and they only exist here, on this planet, where God placed us.

And God did indeed set the Earth in motion. The physical, observable evidence of every other planet in the solar system attests to the accuracy of the heliocentric model. And once you understand the intricacies of how unique our planet is, it makes the fact that God designed this whole creation as a place for us to live, for our joy and for His glory, you really start to see the delicate care that was involved.

All of the laws of physics and chemistry and biology, which were established and developed and enacted by God, have culminated in one great living example of God's mighty providence...Earth. Our beautiful, warm, wet ball of rock, flying through space on an "unmoveable" path, "unshaken" for all ages, giving testimony that "since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." (Romans 1:20)

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Biblically, you are a long way from "there" as to the doctrines of the Word of God on the science of the cosmology of the heavens.

Earth is not a planet. Planet means "wanderer", and earth does not wander. And in the Word of God, the wanderers are called stars, which have to do with the dominion of the seasons, over earth.

And in the Word of God, the vast expanse/the breadth of earth =the stretched out heavens -the raqa'- has its origin =its springing forth [ as offspring of by being born of the divided/cut in two, waters of the created earth:

Isaiah 42:5 [Thus] saith El YHWH, created the heavens, natah; Raqa` earth, Tse'etsa'

solarwave said:

Don't you think there is a good reason science changed its view from one system to another? The Geocentric view is messed up with circles everywhere to try to explain how the planets move. Circles upon circles upon circles.... its a mess really. Also (I hope I am correct) the reason they used circles was from greek philosophy thinking that the circle is the most perfect shape, so not biblical.

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The Greeks had no philosophy when Israel came out of Egypt, and did not come to its "age of glory" until after Alexander the Great was born, and began to conquer the world and the Greeks adopted the religions and myths of those whom they conquered, which was long after Israel was dispersed in the nations of the globe, in the first diaspora.

Enoch the prophet, the seventh from Adam, was shown how the "wandering stars/planets" move, in the heavens, to guide the seasons over earth. We have a lot of his writings in the Ethiopian Enoch [Canon/listed in the Ethiopian Bible/collection of books from the beginning of the NT Church in Ethiopia], and the DSS Enoch manuscripts had a more enlarged version of the cosmology of the heavens written by Enoch, so the Ethiopian one is redacted, even.

solarwave said:

We also know how gravity works and that the Sun has more gravity than us

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You are misinformed about gravity and the sun, the earth, and the universe.

Strength of the electric force
The electric force—the force that holds electrons and protons in atomic structure— is the foundation of the material world. It is 1039 times more powerful than gravity. -http://www.mikamar.biz/synopsis.htm

solarwave said:

What foundation is it that I attack?

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The Word/Dabar who is now come in flesh and who made all things and upholds all things, by His great "power".
Psa 119:160 Thy word/דבר dabar [is] true [from] the beginning:

Psa 11:3 If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?

solarwave said:

And the stars falling away isn't metaphorical? Even if the stars fall somewhere isn't have to mean the earth..... since one star would destroy the earth.

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They do not fall away, they fall down.
Where is down, for a star?

The star sign/oracle of revelation 12 shows that stars are cast down to earth:
Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Angels are stars, in the Word of God, the army/hosts of God in heavens; beginning in Enoch the prophet's writings, also in Moses, and through to Revelation, stars have personalities, names, duties, and are the sons of God/angels of the LORD, and the host of the heavens.

Jdg 5:20 They fought from heaven; the stars in their courses fought against Sisera.
Dan 8:10 And it waxed great, [even] to the host of heaven; and it cast down [some] of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.Dan 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.



The glory of the stars is a parable for the righteous, says Enoch the prophet -and the angels in Daniel reiterates that -who will shine like the stars when they are seated on their thrones of glory, in the regeneration.


1 Enoch

43 And I saw other lightnings and the stars of heaven, and I saw how He called them all by their names and they hearkened unto Him. 2And I saw how they are weighed in a righteous balance according to their proportions of light: I saw the width of their spaces and the day of their appearing, and how their revolution produces lightning: and I saw their revolution according to the number of the angels, and how they keep faith with each other.
3And I asked the angel who went with me who showed me what was hidden: 4"What are these?"
And he said to me: "The Lord of Spirits hath showed thee their parabolic meaning: these are the names of the holy who dwell on the earth and believe in the name of the Lord of Spirits for ever and ever."

yeshuasavedme said:

Enoch the prophet, the seventh from Adam, was shown how the "wandering stars/planets" move, in the heavens, to guide the seasons over earth....

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You like to quote Enoch a lot... I assume because it seems to support your world view.

I also assume you view the Bible as inerrant.

So why is Enoch not part of the Canon?
Was it left out on accident? By mistake?
If it was, doesn't that mean the Bible is flawed?

Since it is noncanonical, then why bother to continually quote form it, since it is not inspired?

ivebeenshown said:

Space is more complex than circles. It's more complex than what Ptolemy OR Copernicus laid foundations for.

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Do you really think that astronomy has simply stood pat on the works of Ptolemy or Copernicus? That nothing was ever tested to be accurate?

Heliocentrism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
You should probably read the whole thing.

And maybe freshen up on the scientific method...
Scientific method - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

ivebeenshown said:

Indeed, which in light of the described purpose of the heavens in Genesis 1 designates them to be considered separate in purpose. However, I don't think Genesis 1 contains within it the proper support to interpret the geocentric model -- yeshuasavedme tried to show me how it does, but it still stands that God could have set the earth in motion (that is, based only from Genesis 1.)

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Well its good to hear that at least

ivebeenshown said:

It IS a mess. And it's far more complicated than circles. It's more complicated than any man will ever be able to explain why other than a simple 'God did it'.

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Its a mess because it is wrong and it makes God a messy God. Science makes God out to be much greater than the mess that is what you appear to want to believe (no offence). The universe is amazing and shows Gods glory and to bring it down to what you want to, which seems to be that it makes no sense, makes Gods creation less than it actual is. The equations science uses to expalin cosmology are amazing things.

They take one hypothesis that hasn't been tested (the big bang, the only way to scientifically test such a claim is to do it and take notes of the results) and then try to explain away so many details... "well, the supernova does this, and there's gravity, and dark matter... which we can't exactly explain because we don't know the core workings of it..."

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But if the Big Bang is true you would expect certain things to be true about the universe.... and they are true.

You seem to have a big issue with dark matter As if because we don't understand it now we never will, and by thinking that you say we are more intellectual now then in the past. We have learnt may things we didn't know before.

What are the core workings of the universe and its creation? God! Does the big bang line up with what we are told happens first, second, third, fourth, fifth, and sixth in the bible? No.

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Correct!

yeshuasavedme said:

The "earth is the elder"*, and the Genesis 1 record shows us that the heavens are sprung forth -have their origin- from the waters of earth, divided, and the heavens being stretched out between the waters. Researching all the meanings of the Hebrew letter shin gives us clues that the letter "shin" which is tooth [two teeth, in fact; the incisors, which cut], has a connection to a cutting, and a raising up, a climbing;

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You must really dislike scientific cosmology.

yeshuasavedme said:

The "Bible" does not say "corners" as in angles of a square or of a rectangle or any other shape. English translators are not inspired, and they do not give the translations based on context, in so many ways, that it is impossible to understand the Word of God and the doctrines of the Word using the biased translations of English translators. You need to go to the original words in the original languages and lay the Word/Scriptures out "side by side" [comparing Scripture with Scripture], to "rightly divide" it".

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And what makes your interpreation so much better than the ones who interpreted the Bible before. Because you are less bias?

yeshuasavedme said:

The Greeks had no philosophy when Israel came out of Egypt, and did not come to its "age of glory" until after Alexander the Great was born, and began to conquer the world and the Greeks adopted the religions and myths of those whom they conquered, which was long after Israel was dispersed in the nations of the globe, in the first diaspora.

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I ment the geocentric model in medieval times worked from greek philsophy too.

yeshuasavedme said:

You are misinformed about gravity and the sun, the earth, and the universe.

Strength of the electric force
The electric force—the force that holds electrons and protons in atomic structure— is the foundation of the material world. It is 1039 times more powerful than gravity. -http://www.mikamar.biz/synopsis.htm

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Don't worry I know what the electromagnetic force is

Even so I have no idea what that has to do with gravity, etc. What point are you making? More mass causes more gravity and the sun has more mass and so more gravity, so the earth goes roun the sun. Put simply.

yeshuasavedme said:

The Word/Dabar who is now come in flesh and who made all things and upholds all things, by His great "power".

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I am not denying Jesus.

They do not fall away, they fall down.
Where is down, for a star?

Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Angels are stars, in the Word of God, the army/hosts of God in heavens; beginning in Enoch the prophet's writings, also in Moses, and through to Revelation, stars have personalities, names, duties, and are the sons of God/angels of the LORD, and the host of the heavens.

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Im not sure what you mean here? Are you talking about stars (the nuclear balls of fire) or metaphor where stars means angels?

solarwave said:

You must really dislike scientific cosmology.

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Scientific cosmology begins in Enoch, continues in Moses, and ends in Revelation.

And FYI, there are men who are not Christians who are "scientific" and who are "cosmologists", who show factual data of why the universe is "electric". There are no hydrogen stars, only "lights" made in God's electric universe; and which "lights", the Word of God makes many statements about, saying that they are "angels", and" the hosts/armies of heaven", and [created] sons of Elohym".

Stars have come down to earth, to remain on earth and take wives of the daughters born in Adam, a fornicating forbidden sin [as Jude 1 shows] and they are now chained in Sheol below.
Stars will again come/fall down to earth, cast down out of heaven and stripped of their glory, so the Word says.


I am promised in the Word of God that I will shine like the stars, in the regeneration, if I turn many to righteousness; and like the heavens, if I am wise -and I will not be a hydrogen furnace when I shall be given glory and shine as the stars.
Dan 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Jesus shines like the sun, and is the Sun of Righteousness, in the Word. we who are born of His Spirit only get to shine like the stars, if we turn many to righteousness.
The sun is the greater light, and governs the light called into being on day 1. The sun was set in the stretched out heavens on day 4, as a symbol/oracle/sign of Christ, who came in flesh -appeared to be seen for the first time- at the end of the fourth millennium, to die for our sins and bring second birth of Spirit to whosoever will repent and believe, so that in the fifth millennium, the River of Life flowing from the throne in heaven is become so deep and wide by those joined to it by being born of that Spirit, that it cannot be passed over; as Ezekiel saw in the vision of that River, in chapter 47.

ivebeenshown said:

1. Was the universe created by a big bang producing the slow formation of stars and planets and eventually vegetation and lifeforms on the earth, or was it as stated in Genesis 1 -- vegetation on earth before stars?
2. We can observe how the universe appears right now. It appears the Sun is going to slowly burn out over billions of years, even though the bible says it is going to go black on the day of judgment -- it may not have always burned at this rate and it may not go out like we think it will.
3. But using this information, we'll form a hypothesis about how the Sun formed in the first place to begin burning away.
4. Perform experiment... perform experiment... anyone have any idea how to produce a big bang?
5. What data, and from what experiment?
6. What data, and from what experiment?
7. Results based on what experiment?
8. Retest what?

The big bang has not been tested. It cannot be proved, and the Genesis 1 model is from the Holy Spirit, and holds more salt.

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It's good that you recognize that older models and theories are retested and thrown out as necessary. This is precisely why the Geocentric model was abandoned... It was tested, theoretically, and found to be inaccurate. Attempts at trying to reconcile that model, by inventing other crazy criss-crossing circular orbits, did not work. They failed to properly predict the movements, locations and times of other celestial objects. It did not past the test.... a test from the 1500s...

No. The Big Bang cannot be straight up tested and observed. But the same principles can be, on a microscopic scale. (Large Hadron Collider)
They are still working on it. If the Big Bang theory turns out to be incorrect, then it will stop being used. But it has to be tested on all fronts before that can be determined.

I'm not saying it's fact and I don't think Solarwave is either. We recognize that it is a theory... That's why it's being tested, albeit on a molecular level or through theoretical physics.

ivebeenshown said:

The only purpose for the heavens is telling times, seasons, and signs (such as the star of Bethlehem) and we will receive no other benefits from them.

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Right...like solar energy, photosynthesis, things like that?

Also, the study of cosmic occruances has led to all types of new knowledge, especially in the fields of physics, you know, the very laws by which all things operate?

I do find it interesting that in order to support your Geocentric model of the universe, you turn to a scientific theory (Relativity...which can't be proven, given your view of how science and knowledge work...) based in the study of the very universe that you claim we will get no benefits from.

solarwave said:

And what makes your interpreation so much better than the ones who interpreted the Bible before. Because you are less bias?

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You are mixing up translation and interpretation.
A translator translates from the original and they are not inspired as the original author was. Whatever bias' they have, whether from ignorance or will, they translate in that bias. There is much ignorance in the English translations, and the only remedy is to go the original words for oneself, which is easy to do in this age. You cannot change the meaning of the original words to make up stuff that is not there. There are no angles in the Hebrew word for "wings -as a covering".
You have one verse that speaks of the "corners" of the earth, in the Hebrew, and you want to make doctrine on that, as if the rest of the Hebrew is to be cast out as not meaning anything, because you have an English translation of a Hebrew word that you want to make mean "angle", and that is totally not scientific by any means, of you, in trying to make up doctrines.
Go do the science of original, inspired" words, to begin learning the science of the Word of God.

The sun is not a hydrogen furnace, nor is it a star. Stars are not hydrogen furnaces.

Jos 10:13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. [Is] not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.
Jasher Chapter 88 - The Book of Jasher Published by J.H. Parry & Company 1887
Book of Jasher, chapter 88
63

And when they were smiting, the day was declining toward evening, and Joshua said in the sight of all the people, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon, and thou moon in the valley of Ajalon, until the nation shall have revenged itself upon its enemies.
64

And the Lord hearkened to the voice of Joshua, and the sun stood still in the midst of the heavens, and it stood still six and thirty moments, and the moon also stood still and hastened not to go down a whole day.
65

And there was no day like that, before it or after it, that the Lord hearkened to the voice of a man, for the Lord fought for Israel.

Book of Jasher chapter 89

8

The sun and moon stood still in heaven, and thou didst stand in thy wrath against our oppressors and didst command thy judgments over them.
9

All the princes of the earth stood up, the kings of the nations had gathered themselves together, they were not moved at thy presence, they desired thy battles.
10

Thou didst rise against them in thine anger, and didst bring down thy wrath upon them; thou didst destroy them in thine anger, and cut them off in thine heart.
11

Nations have been consumed with thy fury, kingdoms have declined because of thy wrath, thou didst wound kings in the day of thine anger.
12

Thou didst pour out thy fury upon them, thy wrathful anger took hold of them; thou didst turn their iniquity upon them, and didst cut them off in their wickedness.
13

They did spread a trap, they fell therein, in the net they hid, their foot was caught.
14

Thine hand was ready for all thine enemies who said, Through their sword they possessed the land, through their arm they dwelt in the city; thou didst fill their faces with shame, thou didst bring their horns down to the ground, thou didst terrify them in thy wrath, and didst destroy them in thine anger.
15

The earth trembled and shook at the sound of thy storm over them, thou didst not withhold their souls from death, and didst bring down their lives to the grave.
16

Thou didst pursue them in thy storm, thou didst consume them in thy whirlwind, thou didst turn their rain into hail, they fell in deep pits so that they could not rise.
17

Their carcasses were like rubbish cast out in the middle of the streets.
18

They were consumed and destroyed in thine anger, thou didst save thy people with thy might.
19

Therefore our hearts rejoice in thee, our souls exalt in thy salvation.
20

Our tongues shall relate thy might, we will sing and praise thy wondrous works.
21

For thou didst save us from our enemies, thou didst deliver us from those who rose up against us, thou didst destroy them from before us and depress them beneath our feet.
22

Thus shall all thine enemies perish O Lord, and the wicked shall be like chaff driven by the wind, and thy beloved shall be like trees planted by the waters.
23

So Joshua and all Israel with him returned to the camp in Gilgal, after having smitten all the kings, so that not a remnant was left of them.

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Sorry, but extensive study of the sun, which is a star, has conclusively proven, by various means of study that it is a star, powered by the process of nuclear fusion, mainly of hydrogen atoms. Stellar spectrometry, which can identify elements present, has established this fact, and the main composition of the sun is hydrogen. That's the same basic principle behind the study of red shift. And a star, which is a physical object, is not an angel, which is a spirit being, just as God is Spirit. What I do agree is that angels can take physical form, and have done so on various occasions, as recorded in the Bible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_spectral_series

Anyway, the sun generates its own light, and the moon reflects the sun's light.

And, when Revelation talks about 'stars' falling from the sky, I don't take that to literally mean stars like Sirius, or even Proxima Centauri, which is only 4.2 or so light-years from earth. Stars are much more massive than the earth, and as I believe Solarwave pointed out, it would only take one to completely obliterate the earth...even the one we're in orbit around.