Yes, I do. But, we're not yet in the new heavens and new earth.Of Course I do. You Understand we are already in that city, don't you? (Hebrews 12:22)
Right.
It's talking about people that are going to be cast into the lake of fire being outside the city on the new heavens and new earth. No one has been cast into the lake of fire yet. That will happen on judgment day. So, THAT is not a present reality.Since, you agree that PRESENTLY, Those in Christ are NOW IN that City.
and Since you agree that, PRESENTLY, that City IS already come down to earth and is the Church, the Bride of the Lamb,
and Since you agree PRESENTLY those outside of that City are indeed in CLOSE PROXIMITY to those of us inside that City, and you agree those of us inside that city are PRESENTLY calling out to all outside the city who thirst to "come and drink freely of the warter of life", water you agree is available PRESENTLY, I'm therefore unclear about your objection to what is demonstrably a PRESENT REALITY you agree with.
What is your point here? Are you arguing that we will be bothered for eternity about the torment other people are suffering?Are you suggesting I take a Sharpie and redact that Passage from my Bible?
Seem your objection is strictly about the LOCATION of eternal anguish and screaming, and not the mere existence of it?
Out of sight, out of mind is it?
The fact that people languish and scream in agony for eternity won't bother you as long as you don't have to see it?
You indicate "after" these things ( your list) when in fact none of these things have occured. No such third group exists. Blessings
12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. "
There is no 3rd group. All those not found in the book of life will have their part in the LOF SECOND DEATH. No sinner can live forever. This simply places them outside the city and outside the NHNE where righteousness dwells forever.
The time of the beast is a very short window of time that does not include most of the history of humanity. Their destruction is clear. None of these scriptures above answers the OP questions.See these scriptures below...,
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.
“The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.
And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Rev 14
9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
Doesnt make any sense for the LOF to be situated on the restored NHNE where Gods presence will be.
2thess 1
This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.
Scripture tis clear that Sin and Death exist forever. They are NEVER eradicated. The Unrepentant will NEVER be free from Sin and Death. They will NEVER share in Christ's Victory.
Victory over Sin and Death is only and ever for those IN CHRIST.
Since we who are in Christ have Already come into the New Jerusalem City (Hebrews 12:22), and the as yet unrepentant are already here on earth, "outside the gates of the city, practicing their Lies", we can know Revelation 22:14 is describing a present reality.
As is Revelation 22:2
In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
If we say this is describing a time when all things have already been made anew, then there would be no nation still in need of "healing", however the text is clear, the nations, at this point, are in need of healing and the leaves of the tree are here for that purpose, which again cements this as a present reality. The leaves of the tree are, at this moment, healing the nations. And they can not fail (Matthew 16:18)
Likewise Revelation 22:17
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.
The only people who thirst are the as yet unsaved, who have yet to drink the water of life, for "one drink and ye shall never thirst again" (John 4:14, John 6:35)
Again, this is clearly a PRESENT REALITY.
You are very weird if you believe God would restore the heaven and earth..... and then leave the damned screaming in anguish for an eternity just outside the gates of our eternal home of a NHNE where that type of behavior should no longer be remembered no more.
It's not strange in a book filled with symbolism. The New Jerusalem is not a literal city, it's the church/bride of Christ (Rev 21:2,9), so it's simply describing all of those whose names are not written in the book of life being separate from those whose names are in the book of life.
Revelation 20:15 tells us that they will be cast into the lake of fire, so why would you think they would be anywhere else?
Understood however when it does happen the third group, as you say, will be in condemnation. They will have already suffered the second death at the same time with those who have everlasting life.I understand that the things have not occurred at this time. But, at the time of the NJ, they have occurred. After all those things, we read about sinners outside the city of the NJ. That is what I was asking about.
The time of the beast is a very short window of time that does not include most of the history of humanity.
Perhaps, Christ already came and we are in a parallel earth somewhere.
I am saying the Holy Spirit works in every human. Not just a few. A few humans accept the Atonement with faith, because of this work.The whole world had their sin taken away, only people who trust in The Messiah has received and possesses God's free gift of Eternal Life, they are born again a child of God. Those are the believers who have the Holy Spirit.
So are you saying the whole world has received The Holy Spirit and is born again, a child of God.
I am saying the Holy Spirit works in every human. Not just a few. A few humans accept the Atonement with faith, because of this work.
You are very weird if you believe God would restore the heaven and earth..... and then leave the damned screaming in anguish for an eternity just outside the gates of our eternal home of a NHNE where that type of behavior should no longer be remembered no more.
I am saying the Holy Spirit works in every human. Not just a few. A few humans accept the Atonement with faith, because of this work.
To give a picture of the magnificence and beauty of Christ's church. Do you take Ephesians 2:19-22 literally?The people AND the city are the bride. Not a literal city? Why are we given dimensions, description of the gates and foundations, streets of gold, etc?
The symbols aren't real, but what it symbolizes, which is the bride of Christ/the church is real.All that is not real?
It sure is. Can it be described in a way that our puny minds can comprehend? I don't believe so. Hence the symbolism that we CAN understand and picture in our minds.Is heaven real?
Don't ask ridiculous questions, please. Of course He is.Is Jesus real?
Yes, He's coming back. You're acting as if there isn't any symbolism in the book of Revelation when there clearly is. Is everything symbolic? No. Is a lot of it symbolic. Yes. Why is that a problem for you?Is He not really coming back? What point do we stop with the symbolism?
Again, not believing that it's talking about a literal physical city does not mean I don't believe it's talking about something real. The church is very real. Just because something is described symbolically doesn't mean the symbols don't represent something real.I realize almost everyone missed the point of the OP. It plainly states AFTER the judgment, NHNE, NJ, THEN sinners are outside of the city. But, if you believe none of those things are real, then I guess anything is possible. Perhaps, Christ already came and we are in a parallel earth somewhere.
To give a picture of the magnificence and beauty of Christ's church. Do you take Ephesians 2:19-22 literally?
Eph 2:19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.
Is this talking about a literal physical building with physical foundations, etc.? Of course not, right?
A building built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets? Interesting. Reminds me of this:
Revelation 21:14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Like Revelation 21, this passage from Ephesians 2 describes the church in a figurative way. Is there anything wrong with that? Does it mean the church isn't real just because it's described symbolically as being a building/holy temple built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets with Christ as the chief cornerstone of the building?
The symbols aren't real, but what it symbolizes, which is the bride of Christ/the church is real.
It sure is. Can it be described in a way that our puny minds can comprehend? I don't believe so. Hence the symbolism that we CAN understand and picture in our minds.
Don't ask ridiculous questions, please. Of course He is.
Yes, He's coming back. You're acting as if there isn't any symbolism in the book of Revelation when there clearly is. Is everything symbolic? No. Is a lot of it symbolic. Yes. Why is that a problem for you?
Again, not believing that it's talking about a literal physical city does not mean I don't believe it's talking about something real. The church is very real. Just because something is described symbolically doesn't mean the symbols don't represent something real.
It's talking about those who are cast into the lake of fire being separate from those who inherit the new heavens and new earth. That's it. Don't make it any more complicated than that. The idea that those whose names are not written in the book of life will be eternally in close proximity to those whose names are written in the book of life does not make any sense.
That was set up in Luke 16:19-31, with the rich man being tormented in hell talking to Abraham in heaven.
To give a picture of the magnificence and beauty of Christ's church. Do you take Ephesians 2:19-22 literally?
Eph 2:19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.
Is this talking about a literal physical building with physical foundations, etc.? Of course not, right?
A building built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets? Interesting. Reminds me of this:
Revelation 21:14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Like Revelation 21, this passage from Ephesians 2 describes the church in a figurative way. Is there anything wrong with that? Does it mean the church isn't real just because it's described symbolically as being a building/holy temple built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets with Christ as the chief cornerstone of the building?
The symbols aren't real, but what it symbolizes, which is the bride of Christ/the church is real.
It sure is. Can it be described in a way that our puny minds can comprehend? I don't believe so. Hence the symbolism that we CAN understand and picture in our minds.
Don't ask ridiculous questions, please. Of course He is.
Yes, He's coming back. You're acting as if there isn't any symbolism in the book of Revelation when there clearly is. Is everything symbolic? No. Is a lot of it symbolic. Yes. Why is that a problem for you?
Again, not believing that it's talking about a literal physical city does not mean I don't believe it's talking about something real. The church is very real. Just because something is described symbolically doesn't mean the symbols don't represent something real.
It's talking about those who are cast into the lake of fire being separate from those who inherit the new heavens and new earth. That's it. Don't make it any more complicated than that. The idea that those whose names are not written in the book of life will be eternally in close proximity to those whose names are written in the book of life does not make any sense.
You explained this really well.
Looks like act 29 has nothing to refute.
Nudge nudge bump.
Observe the way Jesus explained the scriptures. Show me one time He said/implied they were symbolic.
The New Heaven and Earth
21 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among the people, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”
5 And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He *said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.” 6 Then He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give water to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life, without cost. 7 The one who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.
8 But for the cowardly, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and sexually immoral persons, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls, full of the seven last plagues, came and spoke with me, saying, “Come here, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”
The New Jerusalem
10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God.
The NEW JERUSALEM is all about the people he came to die for...and save.
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