Who Are The Daniel 7 "Beasts"?

[DaDad]

It clearly mentioned 5 "materials" in both references, I don't understand why you are saying they are clashing?

Hey "From",
If you have a 4a/4b, then they should be consistently associated, such as Iron, Clay, Bronze, Silver, Gold, = 4a, 4b, 3,2,1. Unfortunately for your interpretation in Verse 45 GOD deliberately separated the Iron from the Clay by the insertion of the Bronze between them. Thus Scripture: Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold -- 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE world empires.

In addition ROME IS DEAD. Another state (Italy) occupies that ancient geography. Furthermore, history demonstrates that the PRESENT empire era is "divided" between THREE Superpowers and the United Nations exactly as Scripture depicts.

So once again, if your 4a/4b is truly associated, then why are they separated by the Bronze in verse 45?

Thanks,
DaDad

 

[fromtheearth]

Hey "From",
If you have a 4a/4b, then they should be consistently associated, such as Iron, Clay, Bronze, Silver, Gold, = 4a, 4b, 3,2,1. Unfortunately for your interpretation in Verse 45 GOD deliberately separated the Iron from the Clay by the insertion of the Bronze between them. Thus Scripture: Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold -- 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE world empires.

In addition ROME IS DEAD. Another state (Italy) occupies that ancient geography. Furthermore, history demonstrates that the PRESENT empire era is "divided" between THREE Superpowers and the United Nations exactly as Scripture depicts.

So once again, if your 4a/4b is truly associated, then why are they separated by the Bronze in verse 45?

Thanks,
DaDad

If you apply my method to Daniel 7, you will align the 4th beast to the Roman Empire, which I know is no longer around, into 10 horns, which are 10 king's (Europe was divided into 10 parts) another shall rise after this one, different from the other (papal Rome) who rose after Constantine moved the headquarters of the empire.
And shall subdue 3 king's, (3 of the 10 are no longer around)

You describe the order of Dan2:45 being a problem, however everything else fits.

If you stipulate that they must be in the same order in Dan2:45, you create a whole lot more problems then if you don't.

 

[fromtheearth]

DaDad
Would you mind elaborating more on the modern superpowers and UN idea, I am not too familiar with that idea.

Maybe a link the I can read through?

 

[fromtheearth]

Hey "From",
If you have a 4a/4b, then they should be consistently associated, such as Iron, Clay, Bronze, Silver, Gold, = 4a, 4b, 3,2,1. Unfortunately for your interpretation in Verse 45 GOD deliberately separated the Iron from the Clay by the insertion of the Bronze between them. Thus Scripture: Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold -- 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE world empires.

In addition ROME IS DEAD. Another state (Italy) occupies that ancient geography. Furthermore, history demonstrates that the PRESENT empire era is "divided" between THREE Superpowers and the United Nations exactly as Scripture depicts.

So once again, if your 4a/4b is truly associated, then why are they separated by the Bronze in verse 45?

Thanks,
DaDad

In my Septuagint, it translates directly from the Hebrew Bible and has them in the order
Clay, Iron, Bronze, Silver, Gold

Which shows there is no clash on the configuration after all.

 

[DaDad]

In my Septuagint, it translates directly from the Hebrew Bible and has them in the order
Clay, Iron, Bronze, Silver, Gold

Which shows there is no clash on the configuration after all.

Please re-check verse 45, which per your image shows the sequence: Iron, Bronze (Brass), Clay, Silver, Gold = 4.3.5.2.1 = FIVE separate and distinct world kingdoms, not the 4a/4b which you have represented.

Thanks,
DaDad

 

[DaDad]

DaDad
Would you mind elaborating more on the modern superpowers and UN idea, I am not too familiar with that idea.

Maybe a link the I can read through?

I've posted on THREE of the FOUR Beasts in this Topic already. Is there something more that you want?

Thanks,
DaDad

 

[DaDad]

If you apply my method to Daniel 7, you will align the 4th beast to the Roman Empire, which I know is no longer around, into 10 horns, which are 10 king's (Europe was divided into 10 parts) another shall rise after this one, different from the other (papal Rome) who rose after Constantine moved the headquarters of the empire.
And shall subdue 3 king's, (3 of the 10 are no longer around)

You describe the order of Dan2:45 being a problem, however everything else fits.

If you stipulate that they must be in the same order in Dan2:45, you create a whole lot more problems then if you don't.

1. There are NO "10 kings".
2. From my best analysis, "Papal Rome" has absolutely NO citations in end-time prophecy.
3. If you read 7:12 you should find that after Jesus smites the U.N., the THREE Superpowers will continue for a "time and a season", which is ~ a year and three months. In your version, they're already non-existent, so how can they "continue" if they're DEAD?
4. If ALL Scripture doesn't "fit" then YOUR puzzle pieces are wrong.

Thanks,
DaDad

 

[fromtheearth]

Please re-check verse 45, which per your image shows the sequence: Iron, Bronze (Brass), Clay, Silver, Gold = 4.3.5.2.1 = FIVE separate and distinct world kingdoms, not the 4a/4b which you have represented.

Thanks,
DaDad

I have re checked it and it says:

"Whereas thou sawest that a stone was cut out of a mountain without hands and it beat to pieces the earthenware (Clay), the iron, the brass (Bronze), the silver, the gold;" - Exactly reverse order of the previous listing. If it helps you to number them, then 5,4,3,2,1.

In verse 41-42 it clearly says that the Iron and Clay were mixed, meaning they existed at the same time, hence the common "4a, 4b" idea.

I don't think it can be any more clear.

 

[fromtheearth]

1. There are NO "10 kings".
2. From my best analysis, "Papal Rome" has absolutely NO citations in end-time prophecy.
3. If you read 7:12 you should find that after Jesus smites the U.N., the THREE Superpowers will continue for a "time and a season", which is ~ a year and three months. In your version, they're already non-existent, so how can they "continue" if they're DEAD?
4. If ALL Scripture doesn't "fit" then YOUR puzzle pieces are wrong.

Thanks,
DaDad

1 - "There are NO "10 kings"." - So what does 7:24 talk about? It specifically says "The Ten Horns are Ten Kings Who shall arise from this kingdom"
2 - Who or what do you think the "Little Horn" is? Who will speak Pompous words against the Most High?
3 - "They had their dominion taken away - They were superseded, or they no longer exercised power. They no more appeared exerting a control over the nations. They still existed, but they were subdued and quiet. It was possible to discern them, but they no longer acted the conspicuous part which they had done in the days of their greatness and grandeur. Their power had passed away. This cannot be difficult of interpretation. We should naturally look for the fulfillment of this in the fact that the nations referred to by these first three beasts were still in being, and could be recognized as nations, in their boundaries, or customs, or languages; but that the power which they had wielded had passed into other hands." - Barnes Commentary also says they still existed, but had their power taken away.

4 - This is one thing we certainly agree on. I am trying my best to see other explanations that fit, but I can't see any that do. I plan to look into your interpretations of the beasts, but already, I see problems with some of your suggestions.

Good luck with it all it is great discussing these things with you!

 

[DaDad]

1 - "There are NO "10 kings"." - So what does 7:24 talk about? It specifically says "The Ten Horns are Ten Kings Who shall arise from this kingdom"

... from ANCIENT ROME! Clearly we have TEN nations which are identified for the United Nations Security Council:

CURRENT Permanent Membership of the Security Council
1. U.S.
2. U.K.
3. France
4. Russia
5. China

NOMINATED to Permanent Membership of the Security Council *
6. Germany (economic power)
7. Japan (economic power)
8. Brazil -- regional representative for S. America
9. Nigeria -- regional representative for Africa
10. India -- regional representative for the Near East
* “The Road To Reform: Towards A New Clarity,” U.N. Chronicle, UMI, Vol. 30, Issue 4, December 1993, pp. 45-46

2 - Who or what do you think the "Little Horn" is? Who will speak Pompous words against the Most High?

I've already identified the U.N. as the "dreadful beast", and the "false prophet" is the Secretary General, whose name "calculates" to 666.

3 - "They had their dominion taken away - They were superseded, or they no longer exercised power. They no more appeared exerting a control over the nations. They still existed, but they were subdued and quiet. It was possible to discern them, but they no longer acted the conspicuous part which they had done in the days of their greatness and grandeur. Their power had passed away. This cannot be difficult of interpretation. We should naturally look for the fulfillment of this in the fact that the nations referred to by these first three beasts were still in being, and could be recognized as nations, in their boundaries, or customs, or languages; but that the power which they had wielded had passed into other hands." - Barnes Commentary also says they still existed, but had their power taken away.

... this would be the THREE Superpowers who give their authority to the United Nations, and after the U.N. is thrown in the pit, they would continue for ~ a year and three months, until they're converted into the new Millennial Kingdom structure.

4 - This is one thing we certainly agree on. I am trying my best to see other explanations that fit, but I can't see any that do. I plan to look into your interpretations of the beasts, but already, I see problems with some of your suggestions.

I would propose that the only "problem" (for Chapter 2) you might have is grasping how there's IRON in the empire of CLAY, which is easily accounted for. All you have to consider is whether Rome was conquered, which it wasn't. It simply disintegrated, leaving the disparate fifedoms, regions, communities, and villages retaining the Senatus Populusque Romanus, “Senate and the Roman People,” bicameral form of government, WHICH WE STILL RETAIN TODAY as a Residue of Iron our empire of CLAY.

Good luck with it all it is great discussing these things with you!

Don't go away with a flawed "interpretation". Resolve each issue to the TRUTH of Scripture AND History, and find out whether they AGREE as GOD PLANNED, or whether it's all a hoax.

With Best Regards,
DaDad

 

[DaDad]

I have re checked it and it says:

"Whereas thou sawest that a stone was cut out of a mountain without hands and it beat to pieces the earthenware (Clay), the iron, the brass (Bronze), the silver, the gold;" - Exactly reverse order of the previous listing. If it helps you to number them, then 5,4,3,2,1.

In verse 41-42 it clearly says that the Iron and Clay were mixed, meaning they existed at the same time, hence the common "4a, 4b" idea.

I don't think it can be any more clear.

45 just as you saw that a stone was cut from a mountain by no human hand, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold.
​

I read your Septuagint too quickly to catch that the sequence had been changed! My mistake in my previous reply! Are you aware that the Septuagint is a flawed text? According to the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Masoretic is the reliable version.

Apologetics Press :: Reason & Revelation
April 1995 - 15[4]:25-30

The Dead Sea Scrolls and Biblical Integrity
by Garry K. Brantley, M.A., M.Div.

...
THE SCROLLS AND THE MASORETIC TEXT
...
Critical scholars questioned the accuracy of the MT, which formed the basis of our English versions of the Old Testament, since there was such a large chronological gap between it and the autographs. Because of this uncertainty, [?Septuagint?]scholars often “corrected” the text with considerable freedom.
...
A comparison of the MT to this earlier text revealed the remarkable accuracy with which scribes copied the sacred texts. Accordingly, the integrity of the Hebrew Bible was confirmed, which generally has heightened its respect among scholars and drastically reduced textual alteration.
...
CRITICAL SCHOLARSHIP, DANIEL, AND THE SCROLLS
...
Daniel was peculiarly safeguarded to the extent that we have at our disposal parts of all chapters of Daniel, except chapters 9 and 12.
...
INTEGRITY OF THE TEXT
...
Further, a comparison of the Septuagint translation (Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible) with the MT revealed tremendous disparity in length and content between the two texts. Due to these and other considerations, critical scholars assigned little value to the MT rendition of Daniel.

Once again, however, the findings at Qumran have confirmed the integrity of Daniel’s text. Gerhard Hasel listed several strands of evidence from the Daniel fragments found at Qumran that support the integrity of the MT (see 1992, 5[2]:50). First, for the most part, the Dead Sea Scroll manuscripts of Daniel are very consistent in content among themselves, containing very few variants. Second, the Qumran fragments conform very closely to the MT overall, with only a few rare variants in the former that side with the Septuagint version. Third, the transitions from Hebrew to Aramaic are preserved in the Qumran fragments. Based on such overwhelming data, it is evident that the MT is a well-preserved rendition of Daniel. In short, Qumran assures us that we can be reasonably confident that the Daniel text on which our English translations are based is one of integrity. Practically speaking, this means that we have at our disposal, through faithful translations of the original, the truth God revealed to Daniel centuries ago.
...​

Hope this helps,
DaDad