Who adopted Moses?

[gitamerah]

There have been theories and speculations about the identity of the daughter of the pharaoh who adopted Moses. The popular theory right now seems to be Hatchepsut.

See:

http://www.bibarch.com/Perspectives/7.2D.htm

What I want to know is... are there any alternate theories as to who adopted Moses? What are the evidence?

Are there any theories and evidences that disproves the Hatchepsut theory?

 

[FreezBee]

http://www.bibarch.com/Perspectives/7.2D.htm

What I want to know is... are there any alternate theories as to who adopted Moses? What are the evidence?

Are there any theories and evidences that disproves the Hatchepsut theory?

Thanks for the link, it's quite an interesting page.

The main problem with having Moses in the Middle Kingdom period is that the pharaohs of that period all ruled from Thebes (Egypt: "Was-et"), which is far south in Egypt. This includes Hatchepsut. Since pharaoh's daughter found Moses in Goshen, which is in the eastern part of the Nile delta, there is something wrong.

Some of the argumentation on the page does not quite work either. That pharaohs later than Thutmosis III did not spend their time on waging war may be due to that it was not needed, not because they had lost their army. Thutmosis III did wage war, but the later pharaohs generally preferred to rely on diplomacy and alliances to upkeep the empire, to expand it would have meant war with the Hittites, and that was not wanted, and if there were no serious rebellions, then there was no serious need for power display.


- FreezBee

 

[trustco]

Actually I believe it was Thulyramicafah that adopted Moses.

 

[FreezBee]

Actually I believe it was Thulyramicafah that adopted Moses.

Ok, on what evidence do you base this claim? If my memory serves me well, Thulyramicafah was a princess in the 19th dynasty, and therefore a bit late for the usual dating of the Exodus.


- FreezBee

 

[Mosheli]

There is little evidence for all the details of the story of exodus fitting with the time of Hatshepsut and the 18th dynasty (which she was in).
The 18th dynasty (Hatshepsut's dynasty) is too late in overall Egyptian history (of 33 dynasties) for Moses who is earlier in over all biblical history (290/353/427 + 215 + 430 yrs after the Flood). The biblical date for Moses is 480 yrs before Solomon who was ca 900s bc, i.e. Moses is ca 1400s bc. The conventional date of Hatshepsut in the 18th dynasty is 1490, but the conventional dates of the Egyptian dynasties are too long/old when compared with sources like the bible and Herodotus (eg remember all the "3000" yrs 33 dynasties have to come after the Flood), so the true dates of the Egyptian dynasties will be lower. A number of alternative chronologists like Velikovsky, Rohl, Down, myself agree that Moses was in the 12th-13th dynasty period (a few dynasties before Hatshepsut's dynasty). There is evidence that Rohl is right that the Amarna period a little while after Hatshepsut in the same 18th dynasty was really contemporary with the time of King David (ca 1000s bc).

Four of my candidates for the daughter of Pharaoh who adopted Moses are the following, all in the 12th dynasty:

Princess Sit-hathor-yunet of the 12th dynasty:
The blue kneeling figure in her pectoral is with a prominent M glyph which means Mes in Egyptian, and Mes is what the name Moses would be in Egyptian. There are several possible matches between things depicted in the pectoral and the story of Moses (including the figure is blue, water waves along bottom, the figure is between 2 reeds).

Hatshepset daughter of Amenemhet 2 of the 12th dynasty (not Hatshepsut of the 18th):
The names of her sons are erased and it is possible that Moses could have been among the names.

Possible adopted mother of Amenemhet IV of the 12th dynasty:
"Amenemhet IV had no records of his birth in Egyptian records." "Amenemhat IV may have been the son, grandson or step-son of his predecessor, the powerful Amenemhat III." "The relation of Amenemhat IV to Amenemhat III is similarly uncertain; the former could have been the son or grandson of the latter." "Father uncertain, possibly Amenemhet 3 (perhaps as adoptive father)". "Ryholt proposes that Amenemhat IV was adopted by Amenemhat III...."
"The Pharaoh of Moses had a daughter and no sons.
Amenemhet III had a daughter (Sobekneferu) and no sons to inherit the throne and continue the dynasty."
Amenemhet's mother Hetepi is described similar to Moses' mother Jochebed: "Amenemhat IV was the son of a woman named Hetepi. Hetepi's only known attestation is an inscription on the wall of the temple of Renenutet at Medinet Madi where she is given the title of "King's Mother" but not those of "King's Wife", "King's Daughter" or "King's Sister". Consequently, her relation to Amenemhat III is unknown and she may have been non-royal."

Queen Mereret of the 12th dynasty:
Merrhis one of the traditional names of daughter of pharoah who found Moses is similar to the name of queen Mereret of the 12th dynasty.

Hatshshepsut was in the 18th dynasty in the New Kingdom period.
Moses was probably in the 12th dynasty in the Middle Kingdom period.
It is not certain that Goshen was in the northeastern Nile delta of Lower/North Egypt. There are reasons for doubting it including that Moses was found in the main trunk of the Nile and near a royal residence.
Goshen might have been in the Giza area in Middle/central Egypt.
Like the 18th dynasty, the capital of the 12th dynasty was Thebes in southern Egypt. But there were also other seats/residences in the 12th dynasty like the unlocated Itj-tawy which was probably in the Middle Egypt area.

The 19th dynasty of 1200s bc is certainly too late for Moses even accepting the conventional chronologists "1200s" date, since Moses was 480 yrs before Solomon of 900s bc, though they try to get around this by saying that the 480 yrs might be 12 generations. And since the dynasties dates are too long, the true date of the 19th dynasty will really be even later/lower than 1200s bc.

 

[Semper-Fi]

December 16, 2018 Moses’s ‘Ark of Bulrushes’
Moses’s 'Ark of Bulrushes'

Does archaeology have anything to say about this peculiar story?

 

[Andrewn]

The main problem with having Moses in the Middle Kingdom period is that the pharaohs of that period all ruled from Thebes (Egypt: "Was-et"), which is far south in Egypt. This includes Hatchepsut.

"The Middle Kingdom lasted from approximately 2040 to 1782 BC, stretching from the reunification of Egypt under the reign of Mentuhotep II in the Eleventh Dynasty to the end of the Twelfth Dynasty." Clearly, the Middle Kingdom has nothing to do with either Moses or Hatshepsut!!

The 18th dynasty (Hatshepsut's dynasty) is too late in overall Egyptian history (of 33 dynasties) for Moses who is earlier in over all biblical history (290/353/427 + 215 + 430 yrs after the Flood).

This is not true. "The Eighteenth Dynasty spanned the period from 1550/1549 to 1292 BC." This timeline perfectly fits the biblical narrative of Moses and the Exodus.

The biblical date for Moses is 480 yrs before Solomon who was ca 900s bc, i.e. Moses is ca 1400s bc.

Yes, this is about right.

A number of alternative chronologists like Velikovsky, Rohl, Down, myself agree that Moses was in the 12th-13th dynasty period (a few dynasties before Hatshepsut's dynasty).

Sounds like a conspiracy theory.

It is not certain that Goshen was in the northeastern Nile delta of Lower/North Egypt. There are reasons for doubting it including that Moses was found in the main trunk of the Nile and near a royal residence. Goshen might have been in the Giza area in Middle/central Egypt.

Do you believe any scientific data?

 

[Mosheli]

"The Middle Kingdom lasted from approximately 2040 to 1782 BC, stretching from the reunification of Egypt under the reign of Mentuhotep II in the Eleventh Dynasty to the end of the Twelfth Dynasty." Clearly, the Middle Kingdom has nothing to do with either Moses or Hatshepsut!!

....

This is not true. "The Eighteenth Dynasty spanned the period from 1550/1549 to 1292 BC." This timeline perfectly fits the biblical narrative of Moses and the Exodus.

They are only the ascribed theoretical dates of modern conventional scholars. There is no solid proof that their dates for those dynasties are correct. All their few "scientific" dating methods have problems and are unreliable (radiometric dating, regnal years, Apis bulls, Sothaic/Siriadic, tree rings, Menophres, astronomical, etc). Moreover when comparing their Egyptian dates with sources like the bible and Herodotus etc we see that their Egyptian dates are at least a couple/few centuries too long/old/high. This can be seen by Jabin matching Yabni who is supposedly a few centuries before Jabin, and/or Shiphrah matching Spra who is supposedly a few centuries before Shiphrah.

Sounds like a conspiracy theory.

Nothing to do with it except if you are trying to make it appear to be one? I merely said a number of scholars including myself have alot of quaity evidences for Moses being in the 12th dynasty not the 18th or 19th or 20th. The word "alternative" merely relates to being alternative dynasty/time placement to the popular old orthodox one.

Do you believe any scientific data?

What "scientific" data is there for Goshen being in the north-east Delta? From all I have seen they only have a number of coincidences which supposedy make a case but are really very weak and even outright conflicting with Genesis & Exodus details.

Only believe "science" if it is infallible concrete proof facts. But sadly everyone is lead to believe that everything called/labeled "science" is all true like a god when the reality is alot of "science" is just theories, interpretations, etc. Science just means knowledge and they only know what we know so far not the full future picture. "Scientists" sometimes ignore persons/sources/artifacts/etc which don't agree with their favoured theory (like shelved forbidden archaeological out of place artifacts, and missing links, reversals, etc). All humans are influenced by internal and external influences and interests.

 

[Andrewn]

This can be seen by Jabin matching Yabni who is supposedly a few centuries before Jabin, and/or Shiphrah matching Spra who is supposedly a few centuries before Shiphrah.

We know that the letter J in biblical names should be pronouncer Y. So, Jabin is really Yabin, which can conceivably be the same name as Yabni. And the same Hebrew letter can be pronounced F or P. So, Shiprah and Spra can also be the same name. What does the name of Canaanite chieftain and a Jewish midwife prove?

I merely said a number of scholars including myself have alot of quaity evidences for Moses being in the 12th dynasty not the 18th or 19th or 20th.

There is no archeological or historical evidence that Moses existed, beside the Bible. What is the evidence that correlates him with the 12th dynasty?

 

[Mosheli]

We know that the letter J in biblical names should be pronouncer Y. So, Jabin is really Yabin, which can conceivably be the same name as Yabni. And the same Hebrew letter can be pronounced F or P. So, Shiprah and Spra can also be the same name. What does the name of Canaanite chieftain and a Jewish midwife prove?

Jabin of Hazor is ca 1300s in Judges (not "late 1200s" or "1125" as in conventional chronology).

Ibni(-Addad) / Yabni-Hadad of Hazor is ca "1796-1780" bc or "18th" century bc (Akkadian tablet in Mari letters).
Ibni(-Addi/Addu) is "1760s" or "18th-17th" cents bc (Hazor fragment).

And/or Jaib/Iayib/Ibiau of the 13th dynasty is "1725-1714" or "1712-1701", or Yakbim of the 14th dynasty is "1805-1780" bc.

So it shows that the conventional Egyptian/Mesopotamian dynasties dates are 400 yrs too old/long at the time of Yabni.
(Though there is also a "Qishon of Ybn" in a topographical list of Ramses 2 "1303-1273" bc, but this is ruled out as too late for Jabin in Egyptian/Mesopotamian overall history for various reasons.)

Shiphrah in Exodus is ca 1491 (480 yrs before Solomon of "1000s/900s" bc).

Spra in Egyptian 12th dyn or Brooklyn papyrus is "1745" bc.

Which shows that Egyptian chronology is about 300-400 yrs too long at the time of the 12th dynasty or Brookly papyrus.

There is no archeological or historical evidence that Moses existed, beside the Bible. What is the evidence that correlates him with the 12th dynasty?

Of all the dynasties in ancient dynastic Egyptian bc history the 12th dynasty has the most and best matches with as many of the details of Exodus as possible. I can't not list all of the details matches in the limited space here but just to list a few small examples.
Brick buildings were especially prominent in the 1st Intermediate Period and Middle Kingdom.
Possibly-Semitic slaves shown working in Pectoral of queen Mereret.
Increase in Levantine names in 12th dynasty.
Herodotus said Moeris (12th dyn) was only 900 yrs before [Amasis II or Amyrtaeus or Herodotus]. And Herodotus said chariots were stopped use of in reign of Sesostris (12th or "18th" or "19th" dyn).
No evidence of sudden loss of all of Egypts 600 plus chariots from Hyksos on downwards.
Candidates for Moses himself in/near 12th dynasty include Mes in pectoral of Sit-hathor-yunet (posted in a previous reply in this thread), "Moeris", "he is not my son", erased names of sons of princess Hatshepset, Mesehti (11th dyn), Mer-meshoi (13th dyn).
Amenemhet 1 took the name Wehem-meswet "repeater of births" "implying that he was first in a new line", which might match "a new king arose who knew not Joseph", and recalls name of baby Moses.
Shiphrah may match Spra (Brookyn papyrus).
Candidates for Pithom in 12th dynasty include Piom/Pium/Faiyum, Per-atum temple of Atum at Heliopolis, Itjtawy/Ithtowe, Tithoes (Labyrinth, with P- prefix), Atum (Ipuwer Papyrus of "1st or 2nd Intermediate Period), Meidum, Thom (El Arish inscription which story I relate to 12th dynasty for various reasons).
Elim has a possible match in 11th dynasty travel manuscript.
Sinai similar to Sinuhe.
Small wooden coffins of babies found underneath houses at Lahun/Kahun and/or evidence of high number of children dying at Avaris (12th-13th dyn).
There are 500 yrs from end of 12th dyn to Ramses II (Shishak) matching the 480 yrs from exodus to Solomon/temple. 400 yrs from Hyksos king to 19th dynasty king in San Tablet.
Matches for "treasure/store cities" or "strong/fortified cities" such as the many rooms or 3000 apartments of the Labyrinth, the "huge quantities of ... stores ... found in Sesostris' funerary temple", or Buhen etc.
Moses Ethiopian wife might match Senusret/Sesostris captured Nubian women in campaign.
Fits with other previous and later Egyptian-Biblical matches like Joseph in the 2nd/3rd-4th/5th dynasties, David & Agur-ben-Jakeh & Psalm 104 in 18th dyn Amarna period, Shishak in 19th dynasty.
Kahun/Lahun was suddenly abandoned similar to the exodus.

The only reason they say there is no evidence of Moses in Egypt is because they have the wrong dates for the dynasties and are looking in wrong time/dynasties and place(s).

 

[Andrewn]

Jabin of Hazor is ca 1300s in Judges (not "late 1200s" or "1125" as in conventional chronology). Ibni(-Addad) / Yabni-Hadad of Hazor is ca "1796-1780" bc or "18th" century bc (Akkadian tablet in Mari letters). Ibni(-Addi/Addu) is "1760s" or "18th-17th" cents bc (Hazor fragment). And/or Jaib/Iayib/Ibiau of the 13th dynasty is "1725-1714" or "1712-1701", or Yakbim of the 14th dynasty is "1805-1780" bc. So it shows that the conventional Egyptian/Mesopotamian dynasties dates are 400 yrs too old/long at the time of Yabni.

The OT mentions 2 Jabins: Jabin of Joshua (1406 BC) and Deborah (1200 BC). As a name that was apparently common in Canaan, there could have been many more Jabins / Yabnis and this does not prove anything.

Shiphrah in Exodus is ca 1491 (480 yrs before Solomon of "1000s/900s" bc). Spra in Egyptian 12th dyn or Brooklyn papyrus is "1745" bc. Which shows that Egyptian chronology is about 300-400 yrs too long at the time of the 12th dynasty or Brookly papyrus.

There were most likely a lot of ladies called Shiphrah / Spra and this does not prove anything. The name may not even be the same.

Possibly-Semitic slaves shown working in Pectoral of queen Mereret. Increase in Levantine names in 12th dynasty. Herodotus said Moeris (12th dyn) was only 900 yrs before [Amasis II or Amyrtaeus or Herodotus]. And Herodotus said chariots were stopped use of in reign of Sesostris (12th or "18th" or "19th" dyn).

There is clear evidence of increased numbers of Asiatics in Egypt during the 12th dynasty. Joseph and his family could have been among these Asiatics who ended up taking control of the government and establishing Hyksos dynasties. There is no reason to think that Moeris could be Moses, especially with the name Moses becoming widely used in the New Kingdom.

No evidence of sudden loss of all of Egypts 600 plus chariots from Hyksos on downwards.

Like I said before, there is no archeological evidence of Moses or the Exodus as described in the OT. Scholars believe that Exodus was composed in the 6th century BC based on earlier written and oral traditions, with final revisions in the 5th century BC. Manetho did comment on the episode in the 3rd century BC.

I could go one by one through the other observations to show how strained they are. But this is not necessary.

 

[Mosheli]

The OT mentions 2 Jabins: Jabin of Joshua (1406 BC) and Deborah (1200 BC). As a name that was apparently common in Canaan, there could have been many more Jabins / Yabnis and this does not prove anything.

Some people are not sure the two Jabins are different. There are also 2 Ibnis/Yabnis in Hazor kings list? ("Could" doesn't have much weight, and there are only 2 or 1 known.)
How do you get as much as 206 yrs between Joshua and Deborah of Judges?
Which ever Yabni matches merely means Yabni is either 300 or 500 yrs too early.
Even if you made Jabin II "1200" match Ybn "1303-1273" of 19th dyn (despite that the Egyptian dynasties dates are too long/old, and despite it being too late in over all Egyptian history for Jabin) you have 400-500 yrs between Yabni and Ybn versus "206" yrs between Jabin I and II, and Ybn is still 73-103 too early.

There were most likely a lot of ladies called Shiphrah / Spra and this does not prove anything. The name may not even be the same.

Most likely is not overly weighty.
Well if/when you/they find another one who matches better et me know, until then this one is quite possible considering fitting with other evidences for Moses iin 12th dyn.

There is clear evidence of increased numbers of Asiatics in Egypt during the 12th dynasty. Joseph and his family could have been among these Asiatics who ended up taking control of the government and establishing Hyksos dynasties. There is no reason to think that Moeris could be Moses, especially with the name Moses becoming widely used in the New Kingdom.

The Asiatics of the 12th dynasty are of Exodus not of Genesis. There were Asiatics in the 1st Intermediate Period. Khufu/Cheops was a foreigner and matches Jacob. 12th dynasty doesn't match important details of Joseph story including date, and no Joseph is found in that dynasty. Your "could" have is not strong it is just like fancy (like them fancying the Semites/Canaanites in Khnumhotep picture represent Abraham or Joseph/brothers entering Egypt). Hyksos don't match Hebrews in various ways. Moeris might not relate to Moses but it is possible since Moeris is sort of corrupt imperfect Egyptian tradition and/or Classical rendering. I gave other candidates anyway.

Like I said before, there is no archeological evidence of Moses or the Exodus as described in the OT. Scholars believe that Exodus was composed in the 6th century BC based on earlier written and oral traditions, with final revisions in the 5th century BC. Manetho did comment on the episode in the 3rd century BC.

We will just have to agree to disagree. I don't see there is no archaeological evidence, it just isn't seen right (isn't seen to be connected).

They are wrong, it was not all composed that late, and even if it were it doesn't prove what date the exodus was or that it was not wholly accurate account.
books of the hebrew bible - Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com
There are supposedly Egyptian words or derived words in Exodus 1-2, like the word for river (Nile).

Manetho was wrong. He had two or three exodus' in the 15th/16th/18th, 18th & 19th/20th dynasties. His Osarsiph "Moses" can't match Moses for various reasons. He may have heard/known of the exodus from Egyptian memories/records and/or Septuagint, but he misplaced it.

I could go one by one through the other observations to show how strained they are. But this is not necessary.

They are not strained, or not any more strained than it is straining to make them out to be strained.

 

[Andrewn]

The Asiatics of the 12th dynasty are of Exodus not of Genesis. There were Asiatics in the 1st Intermediate Period. Khufu/Cheops was a foreigner and matches Jacob.

Fanciful assertions without evidence.

We will just have to agree to disagree.

Yes, I agree with this.

 

[Mosheli]

Fanciful assertions without evidence.

They are not fanciful assertions without any evidence, there are heaps of quality evidences which you either haven't seen or unfairly/untruly dismiss. Eg on Khufu as Jacob see paper at
Sean Bambrough - Academia.edu .