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My contention is not that Antioch has Authority!
Sorry to rush this out but you are using historical quotes out of context. NONE of those support the contention that Peter had a specific successor as head of the "ENTIRE CHURCH".
Only Rome, and by all accounts, is traceable to PETER AND PAUL.
Where is the proof from the first two hundred years of Christianity that Peter had a successor as the head of the church?
Catholics must prove that the Bishop of Rome is his successor. The Bible does not mention a successor for Peter and early Christian history does not support the contentions of Catholicism.
I thought I gave some information from the first two hundred years... say 33AD to 232 AD.
Maybe it is not PROOF in the way a court would demand but it has proofs none the less. I think we also have scripture that backs it as well as Traditions.
We have a line of 266 Popes starting with Peter and each and everyone has a record.
So, I guess what I am saying is that I do not know what else to say.
Jack
Jack,
Just cuz the RCC gives a list of 266 popes it doesn't mean that anyone recognized the Universal authoriity now claimed by Rome, as I mentioned outside of some vague references from Irenaeus NO body recognized their universal authority until much later.(ie.4th century)
Jack, no offense but maybe you should read through this thread again... Every point with an ecf you made..I answered that is what White is talking about, you can pc together a group of things to make something look legit but upon closer exam it isn't as such.I posted references besides Irenaeus.
It is clear to me that there has been a seat of Peter since Jesus gave Peter the Keys and that this seat is of dynastic nature.
This is scriptural becasue in Matthew 16:19 Jesus gave Peter the Keys and no where else are they referenced and the ECF support this. Also, scripture backs it because the Gospel of Matthew was written to the Jews and made issue with Jesus being the Son of David. If we then see Matthew 16:19 with Isaias 22 we see that just like the Key of David House we have the Keys of Jesus' Kingdom. Scripturally this was well known to the Jews around 33AD. Also the Key(s) are of a dynastic nature and give the holder the authority of the King.
But I also provided many supporting quotes from ECF from 80 AD and Up.
So, I truly feel that I made a good case.
More importantly this thread was about this guy stating that the Catholic Church took writings out of context to validate what he calls lies or misinterpretations. Yet, I have seen no reference to any of these in pur posts. So, as far as I can determine we have proofs for the Catholic Church and not one for the guy in the Original Post.
Jack,
Just cuz the RCC gives a list of 266 popes it doesn't mean that anyone recognized the Universal authoriity now claimed by Rome, as I mentioned outside of some vague references from Irenaeus NO body recognized their universal authority until much later.(ie.4th century)
Protestant scholars give the same list.
History Of The Christian Church
Volume II. Ante-Nicene Christiainity
by Philip Schaff Protestant Patristic Scholar
The whole number of popes, from the Apostle Peter to Leo XIII. (1878) is two hundred and sixty-three. This would allow about seven years on an average to each papal reign. The traditional twenty-five years of Peter were considered the maximum which none of his successors was permitted to reach, except Pius IX.
Still says nothing about the "popes" "universal authority", which is the point of STZ post you quoted:
Just cuz the RCC gives a list of 266 popes it doesn't mean that anyone recognized the Universal authoriity now claimed by Rome
Jack, no offense but maybe you should read through this thread again... Every point with an ecf you made..I answered that is what White is talking about, you can pc together a group of things to make something look legit but upon closer exam it isn't as such.
Yes when I have the chance I'll share this with you.Is there any proof against the Pope's authority the first 200 or so years???
Still says nothing about the "popes" "universal authority", which is the point of STZ post you quoted:
Just cuz the RCC gives a list of 266 popes it doesn't mean that anyone recognized the Universal authoriity now claimed by Rome
.....It goes without saying that Augustine [c. 354 - 430 AD] identifies the Church with the universal Catholic Church of his day, with its hierarchy and sacraments, and with its centre at Rome..The student tracing the history of the times, particularly of the Arian, Donatist, Pelagian and Christological controversies, cannot fail to be impressed by the skill and persistence with which the Holy See [of Rome] was continually advancing and consolidating its claims. Since its occupant was accepted as the successor of St. Peter, and prince of the apostles, it was easy to draw the inference that the unique authority which Rome in fact enjoyed, and which the popes saw concentrated in their persons and their office, was no more than the fulfilment of the divine plan." (Kelly, pages 406, 407, 413, 417)
Yes when I have the chance I'll share this with you.
Thanks!
As Arnold would say "I'll be back"
About the mid 3rd century, there was a disagreement concerning baptism, and the bishop of Rome took a stance on the issue that was opposite the other bishops in the West and East.Is there any proof against the Pope's authority the first 200 or so years???
In answer to this...V
About the mid 3rd century, there was a disagreement concerning baptism, and the bishop of Rome took a stance on the issue that was opposite the other bishops in the West and East.
Cyprian of Carthage, held a council with many other bishops, and the council opposed the position on baptism taken by the bishop of Rome and others. Cyprian wrote this, about that occasion:
For neither does any of us set himself up as a bishop of bishops, nor by tyrannical terror does any compel his colleague to the necessity of obedience; since every bishop, according to the allowance of his liberty and power, has his own proper right of judgment, and can no more be judged by another than he himself can judge another. But let us all wait for the judgment of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is the only one that has the power both of preferring us in the government of His Church, and of judging us in our conduct there. (Proceedings of the council of Carthage)
Sorry Jack...I am doubting it, I don't believe i've ever used this quote...I believe this was answered previously...
Anastasius, the bishop of Rome, refers to Theophilus, bishop of Alexandria, as "shepherd", "the careful watchman", and "the shipmaster". He refers to how Pope Theophilus "watches over" the church:
"It is felt right that a shepherd should bestow great care and watchfulness upon his flock. In like manner too from his lofty tower the careful watchman keeps a lookout day and night on behalf of the city. So also in the hour of tempest when the sea is dangerous the shipmaster suffers keen anxiety lest the gale and the violence of the waves shall dash his vessel upon the rocks. It is with similar feelings that the reverend and honourable Theophilus our brother and fellow-bishop, ceases not to watch over the things that make for salvation, that God's people in the different churches may not by reading Origen run into awful blasphemies." (Jerome's Letter 95:1)
Can there be much doubt that the bishop of Alexandria is the infallible Vicar of Christ on earth, with jurisdictional primacy over all Christians?
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