Which would apply to the USA?

If the government gets in the religion business it would have to include every religion; Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Islam, Shintoism[Japan] etc. etc. etc. Is that what we want? We have already had children being forced to memorize the five pillars of Islam and the Shahada which one recites to become a Muslim
Ashadu an la ilaha illa illa-ilah, wa ashadu anna muhammadan rasul ullah.” Translation: “There is no God but God (Allah – i.e. there is none worthy of worship but Allah), and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah.”
I don't think that is what we want.

A.ModerateOne said:

"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land." (2Chr 7:14, KJV)

That is directed to God's people, not a secular nation.

What about this one?

"The word of the LORD came again to me, saying, Son of man, when the land sinneth against me by trespassing grievously, then will I stretch out mine hand upon it, and will break the staff of the bread thereof, and will send famine upon it, and will cut off man and beast from it: Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD." (Ezek 14:12-14, KJV)

Yet, the LORD agreed to not destroy Sodom if only 10 righteous could be found there, but there was not even 10.

It looks like we are in the same place as ancient Israel under God's judgment:

"The shew of their countenance doth witness against them; and they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide it not. Woe unto their soul! for they have rewarded evil unto themselves. Say ye to the righteous, that it shall be well with him: for they shall eat the fruit of their doings. Woe unto the wicked! it shall be ill with him: for the reward of his hands shall be given him. As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." (Isa 3:9-12, KJV)

The 19th Presbyterian theologian A. A. Hodge warned the Christians about turning education over to the government with no establishment of religion, but apparently no one listened.

"I am as sure as I am of the fact of Christ’s reign that a comprehensive and centralized system of national education, separated from religion, as is now commonly proposed, will prove the most appalling enginery for the propagation of anti-Christian and atheistic unbelief, and of anti-social nihilistic ethics, individual, social, and political, which this sin-rent world has ever seen."
A.A. Hodge – Public Schools are the "Engine" of Atheism — TEACH DILIGENTLY

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All of the scriptures you cite apply to Old Testament Israel ...

Any nation can be judged by God.


Concerning the education of christians/believers and their children, the church should have taken up that role for themselves.

And not try and take a secular government education system and expect them educated christians from a Biblical christian perspective.

Even now the christian education system is so infected by false teaching that, that is really not a true Biblical education (especially in areas of creation)

A.ModerateOne said:

"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land." (2Chr 7:14, KJV)

That is directed to God's people, not a secular nation.

What about this one?

"The word of the LORD came again to me, saying, Son of man, when the land sinneth against me by trespassing grievously, then will I stretch out mine hand upon it, and will break the staff of the bread thereof, and will send famine upon it, and will cut off man and beast from it: Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD." (Ezek 14:12-14, KJV)

Yet, the LORD agreed to not destroy Sodom if only 10 righteous could be found there, but there was not even 10.

It looks like we are in the same place as ancient Israel under God's judgment:

"The shew of their countenance doth witness against them; and they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide it not. Woe unto their soul! for they have rewarded evil unto themselves. Say ye to the righteous, that it shall be well with him: for they shall eat the fruit of their doings. Woe unto the wicked! it shall be ill with him: for the reward of his hands shall be given him. As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." (Isa 3:9-12, KJV)

The 19th Presbyterian theologian A. A. Hodge warned the Christians about turning education over to the government with no establishment of religion, but apparently no one listened.

"I am as sure as I am of the fact of Christ’s reign that a comprehensive and centralized system of national education, separated from religion, as is now commonly proposed, will prove the most appalling enginery for the propagation of anti-Christian and atheistic unbelief, and of anti-social nihilistic ethics, individual, social, and political, which this sin-rent world has ever seen."
A.A. Hodge – Public Schools are the "Engine" of Atheism — TEACH DILIGENTLY

Click to expand...

I am reminded of Nineveh in a sense.

They accepted the message of Jonah and repented.

However, this message did not take root in the next generation so it was up for judgment later on.

Nowadays, God does not destroy nations like He did back in the days prior to Jesus being resurrected.

However, God does allow people and nations alike to be destroyed by their sins. O saints, do you notice the hardening of your heart, due to the increase of injustice? This is when to pray all the more.

d taylor said:

Any nation can be judged by God.


Concerning the education of christians/believers and their children, the church should have taken up that role for themselves.

And not try and take a secular government education system and expect them educated christians from a Biblical christian perspective.

Even now the christian education system is so infected by false teaching that, that is really not a true Biblical education (especially in areas of creation)

Click to expand...

One pastor has said, "If you send your children to Roman schools, do not be surprised if they turn out Roman"

A.ModerateOne said:

"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land." (2Chr 7:14, KJV)

That is directed to God's people, not a secular nation.

Click to expand...

This question is discussed at length and answered by the first two chapters of 1 Peter.

1 Peter starts out with a firm revelation of who Christians are with respect to the world. Most people did not move around much. People were commonly born, lived, and died within a 20-mile radius. It was common that a family lived even in the same house for generation upon generation. Yet, to those people, who physically hadn't moved more than 20 miles from the place of their births--but because of their new birth in Christ--1 Peter says this:

To the elect who are exiles of the Dispersion throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by His blood.

The conclusion of that discussion is this:

But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, to proclaim the virtues of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light. Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

This is the "team speech," by which we should realize that we who call ourselves Christian are a nation unto ourselves by privilege of a new birth, and now distinct from the natives of whatever territory we were first born into.

RDKirk said:

One pastor has said, "If you send your children to Roman schools, do not be surprised if they turn out Roman"

Click to expand...

Good point, i have never seen the reason why having prayer or even some devotional in school, read at the start of a class. Has been so important to christian groups, it just seem to only have a political reason.

Kind like the atheist have evolution in school, so the political christian cries we want our voices in there too.

But yet how many of them are walking the streets (door to door, etc..), telling people how to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life.

The more you get into God's Word through study and prayer, the more you begin to understand that the temptations of this world and time are provided by Satan, to whom God has given control over the kingdoms of this world (evidence per Luke 4 with tempting Lord Jesus).

Just as the children of Israel were tempted and fell away, even with 'direct proofs' of God's Presence and blessings upon them, they still fell away to the devil's temptations of this world.

Same thing is happening again today with shows of fake miracles, like the so-called Toronto Blessing, duped brethren falling backwards on the floor, running around and howling like animals, speaking gibberish and confusion, laughing uncontrollably, etc.

If it is like this today, what will it be like once the coming false-Messiah shows up working great signs and wonders that, if it were possible, would deceive even Christ's very elect? Apostle Paul said that coming false one will exalt himself in place of God, and over all that is called God, or that is worshiped.

And to think, our Heavenly Father and His Son is allowing... all this to happen upon this world, and upon us IF we allow ourselves to be deceived along with the wicked. Thus staying in His Word with His help and calling upon Him through His Son should be our no.1 priority for these last days.

A.ModerateOne said:

The 19th Presbyterian theologian A. A. Hodge warned the Christians about turning education over to the government with no establishment of religion, but apparently no one listened.

"I am as sure as I am of the fact of Christ’s reign that a comprehensive and centralized system of national education, separated from religion, as is now commonly proposed, will prove the most appalling enginery for the propagation of anti-Christian and atheistic unbelief, and of anti-social nihilistic ethics, individual, social, and political, which this sin-rent world has ever seen."

A.A. Hodge – Public Schools are the "Engine" of Atheism — TEACH DILIGENTLY

Click to expand...

I have here in my study a copy of the 1878 edition of Outlines of Theology by A. A. Hodge. He had an excellent education and taught in his book that science has clearly and certainly confirmed that the earth is much older than what is taught by young earth creationists today. He was a hardcore Presbyterian who taught the theological views of Calvinism. However, he was ridiculously wrong in his belief and teaching that a secular education would prove to be an atheistic education

Today, the world’s fastest growing religion is Islam, and American schoolchildren are protected from the teaching of Islam in public schools. Furthermore, American schoolchildren are protected from the teaching of A. A. Hodge in public schools.

PrincetonGuy said:

Today, the world’s fastest growing religion is Islam, and American schoolchildren are protected from the teaching of Islam in public schools. Furthermore, American schoolchildren are protected from the teaching of A. A. Hodge in public schools.

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I wish that part in bold were true, but it's not.

A.ModerateOne said:

"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land." (2Chr 7:14, KJV)

That is directed to God's people, not a secular nation.

What about this one?

"The word of the LORD came again to me, saying, Son of man, when the land sinneth against me by trespassing grievously, then will I stretch out mine hand upon it, and will break the staff of the bread thereof, and will send famine upon it, and will cut off man and beast from it: Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD." (Ezek 14:12-14, KJV)

Yet, the LORD agreed to not destroy Sodom if only 10 righteous could be found there, but there was not even 10.

It looks like we are in the same place as ancient Israel under God's judgment:

"The shew of their countenance doth witness against them; and they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide it not. Woe unto their soul! for they have rewarded evil unto themselves. Say ye to the righteous, that it shall be well with him: for they shall eat the fruit of their doings. Woe unto the wicked! it shall be ill with him: for the reward of his hands shall be given him. As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." (Isa 3:9-12, KJV)

The 19th Presbyterian theologian A. A. Hodge warned the Christians about turning education over to the government with no establishment of religion, but apparently no one listened.

"I am as sure as I am of the fact of Christ’s reign that a comprehensive and centralized system of national education, separated from religion, as is now commonly proposed, will prove the most appalling enginery for the propagation of anti-Christian and atheistic unbelief, and of anti-social nihilistic ethics, individual, social, and political, which this sin-rent world has ever seen."
A.A. Hodge – Public Schools are the "Engine" of Atheism — TEACH DILIGENTLY

Click to expand...

The USA is not God's People, but just one nation among many, no more (or less) special than any of them. None of those passages can simply be torn out of context and applied to any modern nation.

I am not from the US BTW.

Jer:25:26:
And all the kings of the north,
far and near,
one with another,

and all the kingdoms of the world,
which are upon the face of the earth:

and the king of Sheshach shall drink after them.

Re:16:19:
And the great city was divided into three parts,

and the cities of the nations fell:

and great Babylon came in remembrance before God,
to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

M't:25:31-32:
When the Son of man shall come in his glory,
and all the holy angels with him,
then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

And before him shall be gathered all nations:

and he shall separate them one from another,
as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Zec:14:1-3:
Behold,
the day of the LORD cometh,
and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle;

and the city shall be taken,
and the houses rifled,
and the women ravished;
and half of the city shall go forth into captivity,
and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then shall the LORD go forth,
and fight against those nations,
as when he fought in the day of battle.

Those are the clearest one.

jamiec said:

The USA is not God's People, but just one nation among many, no more (or less) special than any of them. None of those passages can simply be torn out of context and applied to any modern nation.

I am not from the US BTW.

Click to expand...

The USA actually is... about God's people. Someone who only stays loosely in the New Testament Books would not realize that fact.

The founders of the United States of America were Protestant Christians, a lot of them having fled persecutions in Europe by the Catholic Church. My French ancestors experienced that, they were French Huguenots, the first French Protestants. They came to the American colonies in the 16th century.

Those who don't study their Old Testament history are not aware that there are TWO ISRAELS per God's Word. Per 1 Kings 11, God divided the old nation of Israel into TWO separate kingdoms. He did this because of how Solomon allowed his many pagan wives to bring in their idol worship among Israel. God warned Solomon twice, but he would not listen. And still to this day, the two separate 'houses' are still divided.

The two houses involve the southern "kingdom of Judah" at Jerusalem-Judea, also know in God's Word as the "house of Judah". These were made up of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi, and some small remnants of the northern tribes that trekked south to join with Judah.

The other kingdom was the northern "kingdom of Israel" in the northern lands, its capital city at Samaria. These involved the majority of the tribes of Israel, ten tribes. God gave Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim to rule over these ten northern tribes, also called from that point forward, the "house of Israel".

Both kingdoms involved Israelites from the seed of Jacob. But only the northern "kingdom of Israel" was known then as Israel.

God scattered the ten northern tribe "kingdom of Israel" first, because of falling into idol worship that Jeroboam setup. Only the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi were left in the southern part of the holy land. Even at Lord Jesus' 1st coming, the ten northern tribes were still... scattered beyond Euphrates. And so were the majority of Jews of the "house of Judah", because they chose to stay in Babylon after their 70 years captivity, and were further scattered among the Gentiles like the ten tribes were.

So you should study your Old Testament histories. They reveals who the nations are today, and how they originated, and most of all, where the majority of the seed of Jacob was scattered to by God.

jamiec said:

The USA is not God's People, but just one nation among many, no more (or less) special than any of them. None of those passages can simply be torn out of context and applied to any modern nation.

I am not from the US BTW.

Click to expand...

The reality per prophecy in God's Word is that the western Christian nations were founded especially by scattered Israelites from all 12 tribes of Israel, particularly the ten tribes that God scattered first among the Gentiles. You likely just haven't discovered this Biblical history yet, and there's archaeological evidence to match Bible prophecy about it.

Per God's blessing, He said Jacob's seed would become "a nation and a company of nations" (Genesis 35). And then Jacob later transferred that blessing to Joseph's younger son Ephraim, and also said that his brother Manasseh would also be great, but that Ephraim's seed would become "a multitude of nations". And Jacob said to let his name (Israel) be named upon the two lads.

The early western Christian nations in Asia Minor and Europe represented the fulfillment of that "multitude of nations" prophecy that Ephraim was to become. The way Ephraim is represented is that just as Ephraim was the head tribe among the northern ten tribes, and God made one of the seed of Ephraim king over the ten tribed "kingdom of Israel" (with Jeroboam), that structure remained in the west with their having settled there, and is still in effect for today.

And Ephraim's brother, Manasseh, who Jacob said would also be "great" per Genesis 48, became a separate nation in the Americas, as the United States of America, having branched off from Ephraim in the Isles and Europe, but is still linked together as allies, like brothers should.

Even the Scottish Declaration of Arbroath (13th century) declared the Scott's history as descendants of old Israel.

Then the anti working, with Jacob's brother Esau (or Edom, which means RED). Esau was Isaac's eldest son and so God's Birthright was to go to Esau. But Esau profaned God's Birthright, and sold it like it was only wares to Jacob for a bowl of peas or beans.

God had already foretold Isaac's wife Rebekah that there were "two manner of people" in her womb, and that the elder (Esau) would serve the younger (Jacob). (Genesis 25:21-23). So God's Birthright was already ordained to go to the younger Jacob before they were even born.

In Genesis 27, Jacob's mother disguised him so his father thought Jacob was the elder son Esau, and gave God's Birthright blessing to Jacob instead. Then Esau comes along, learning what his brother did, and crying and begging for a blessing too from his father Isaac. In most Bible translations, Esau was given the SAME blessing that Jacob was given, but there's actually a scribal error that changes the blessing to Esau to mean 'away from' the blessings.

So who today would represent a nation is that FAR AWAY FROM the blessings of the best lands, resources, and profanes heritage from God, and flies RED symbols? RUSSIA. That is who Esau represents today (not all the people, because there's still many Christians there; but the SYSTEM over them, Atheistic Communism).

Isaac and Rebekah hated the fact that Esau took a wife of the Canaanites, yet he also married into the family of Ishmael (Arab peoples). So if you wondered at the connection between Communist Russia's support of the radical Islamic nations of the seed of Ishmael, there's the prophetic Biblical connection, which is why Ezekiel 38 with Hebrew 'rosh' scholars have traced to 'Rus', an early label for Russia. Meshech (Moschi) and Tubal (Tiberni) also refer those areas of Russia near the Caucasus. That it is pointing to Russia is also confirmed by the Islamic nations listed which Russia just happens to be allied with today against the Christian nations.