Which one?

[mathetes123]

Is Israel spiritual or literal?

Literal. The church is not Israel.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Something spiritual wouldnt make it less literal if it were so, only the manner which it was meant might be different.

Sorta like one of those catch 22's in the way it was asked I suppose

 

[sleepingdog]

70 AD there were scattered... and became no more until 1948.

They have not fulfilled all of the prophecies but there have been quite a few.

After the foundation of a State of Israel over millions Jews return and it has not stopped in 70 years. The flow in is still coming out of all the countries where they went.

Here is an interesting thing to note about Is 43:5-6 where it says 'south' that is 'teman' or 'Yeman'. Yemenite Jews are called Temanites and were one of the first groups to arrive.

They had a tradition that for generations before there was even airplanes that they would be carried back to their ancient homeland "on eagles' wings".
and this is but an example...

They have not fulfilled any prophecies,they have not scattered abroad,they are not many nations,they do not have a Davidic ruler,they are not Christians...
They have been kicked out of European nations again and again for their beliefs and practices!

The Jews in Israel follow Judaism,not Christianity and the Jews say that Judaism is...

The London Jewish World of March 15, 1923 declared: "Fundamentally, Judaism is anti-Christian."

The Jews did not and do not create airplanes...

Isaiah 60:8:Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows?

 

[mathetes123]

Something spiritual wouldnt make it less literal if it were so, only the manner which it was meant might be different.

Sorta like one of those catch 22's in the way it was asked I suppose

Calling it spiritual Israel is a means to justify replacement theology, when the literal reading of the Bible is clear that it is talking about a literal physical Israel. How anyone can still believe replacement theology after the miraculous rebirth of the nation of Israel in 1948, after almost 2,000 years, is beyond me.

 

[sleepingdog]

Literal. The church is not Israel.

Then who do you say it is?

 

[sleepingdog]

Calling it spiritual Israel is a means to justify replacement theology, when the literal reading of the Bible is clear that it is talking about a literal physical Israel. How anyone can still believe replacement theology after the miraculous rebirth of the nation of Israel in 1948, after almost 2,000 years, is beyond me.

Are you saying the state of Israel is the Israel of the Bible?

 

[Fireinfolding]

Calling it spiritual Israel is a means to justify replacement theology, when the literal reading of the Bible is clear that it is talking about a literal physical Israel. How anyone can still believe replacement theology after the miraculous rebirth of the nation of Israel in 1948, after almost 2,000 years, is beyond me.

Not in my eyes do I make that connection, if the children of the flesh are not counted for seed, then is the seed they are born of a fleshly or spiritual nature?

Are the the children of the promise of the Spirit or of the flesh as counted?

I dont know what replacement theology is, I dont follow some of the stuff out there sorry

 

[riverrat]

"Literal" now, "spiritual" later at the beginning of earthly kingdom.

 

[sleepingdog]

"Literal" now, "spiritual" later at the beginning of earthly kingdom.

Who is the literal?

 

[riverrat]

sleepingdog : The literal would be the present nation of Israel.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Romans 2:28-29

King James Version (KJV)



28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

I am a Jew, but not according to the flesh.

 

[sleepingdog]

sleepingdog : The literal would be the present nation of Israel.

And since when do they fulfill the covenants and prophecies,or when have they accepted Christianity?
Israel was not a state until the late 1940's if the USA stops it's payment to the state of Israel it would cease to be a state.
How can you equate the state of Israel with the Israel of the Bible?
Jews follow Judaism,not Christianity,Judaism has nothing whatsoever to do
with Christianity,so Just because people live in a state named Israel,it makes them Israel?
From what I gather Arabs live there to,are they also literal Israel because they live in the state of Israel?

 

[sleepingdog]

Romans 2:28-29

King James Version (KJV)



28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

I am a Jew, but not according to the flesh.

Jew is a slang term.
Jew in that verse you posted in Strong's Greek is....
2453. Ioudaios ee-oo-dah'-yos from 2448 (in the sense of 2455 as a country); Judaean, i.e. belonging to Jehudah:--Jew(-ess), of Judaea.

Judaean,which is a geographic address and Jehudah which is a Tribe.
There were many people living in Judea,not Just one race of Jews.

An example of the geographic address is...

Matthew 4:25:And there followed him great multitudes of people from Galilee, and from Decapolis, and from Jerusalem, and from Judaea, and from beyond Jordan.

28 One by appearance is not a Judaean, and not by appearance in flesh is circumcision; 29 but in concealment is one a Judaean; and circumcision is of the heart; in Spirit, not in writing; of which approval is not from men, but from Yahweh.

 

[yedida]

Not in my eyes do I make that connection, if the children of the flesh are not counted for seed, then is the seed they are born of a fleshly or spiritual nature?

Are the the children of the promise of the Spirit or of the flesh as counted?

I dont know what replacement theology is, I dont follow some of the stuff out there sorry

Replacement theory is the belief that God is finished with the Jews and has redirected all His love, kindnesses and promises to the Christians. This view would cause the ending of the great New Covenant promise to be a lie (among many many other promises of God's "forevers":
er 31:35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
Jer 31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
Jer 31:37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

People who believe in RT should truly worry. If God's "forevers" to the Israelites ended, then His "forevers" to those who believe in Jesus may end as well.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Thank you, yes I mean I have heard of that in a summed up sense, but I havent sat down and listened to how they derived all their points of doctrine. Theres so much infighting you cant get past them reviling one another to get all your answers you seek. And both sides seem to omit passages, so Im sorta a fence sitter on some things, I can see it both ways however Im not perfect in knowledge and cant get past Daniel because basic math is my hugest hurdle (sadly) and if those who can do math are stumbling all over the place, what chance have I? So I pretty much just stick with scripture and avoid the (meant to trap) direct questions and just stay put (observing the dancing around both sides do). Other then that, I havent found much on boards that prove helpful, and Im still unsure.

Worse are those who are so rude and offensive and in your face about it but believe they are right (for this thing) and I just cant get past their way to even hear their words, its horrible arrogant thing (its really awful) I cant explain it. But sometimes, I think to myself, "if you are right I have no problem being wrong" know what I mean?

I can go on and on this, then... you can disagree with some others, and your anti christ on any case and point you disagree with them, I mean wheres the gentleness, the ability to teach? The waiting on where others are, or at least waiting till actually asked?

I have a giant rant in me that wont go away, can you tell?

Sadly, you get used to get, or maybe thats a good thing? If I were a new christian I would be utterly devesated by how others here speak to you, having no other knowledge of that person, like their age (especially as young ones in the Lord) just looking for a morsel of bread and a little kindness its an epidemic. Folks just looking to be mean (or to be top dog in the Lord). And I have tried befreinding those types, but man... it just never works out, mean is mean, and your heads next for dinner (no matter how many bones you throw them)

 

[riverrat]

sleepingdog wrote:

Originally Posted by riverrat

sleepingdog : The literal would be the present nation of Israel.
​

And since when do they fulfill the covenants and prophecies,or when have they accepted Christianity?
Israel was not a state until the late 1940's if the USA stops it's payment to the state of Israel it would cease to be a state.
How can you equate the state of Israel with the Israel of the Bible?
Jews follow Judaism,not Christianity,Judaism has nothing whatsoever to do
with Christianity,so Just because people live in a state named Israel,it makes them Israel?
From what I gather Arabs live there to,are they also literal Israel because they live in the state of Israel?

Sorry, I did not realize my answer would upset you so and i have no clue as to what you are referring to!

 

[yedida]

sleepingdog wrote:

Originally Posted by riverrat

sleepingdog : The literal would be the present nation of Israel.
​

Sorry, I did not realize my answer would upset you so and i have no clue as to what you are referring to!

And I thought he was fussing at my post. Maybe at both of us?

 

[sleepingdog]

Riverrat,

If literal Israel is in the ''state'' of Israel then we can just as easily say Arabs are literal Israel because they live in the ''state'' of Israel.

How can you make a connection that the ''state'' of Israel is related to the people of the Bible?(Israel)

 

[sleepingdog]

Replacement theory is the belief that God is finished with the Jews and has redirected all His love, kindnesses and promises to the Christians. This view would cause the ending of the great New Covenant promise to be a lie (among many many other promises of God's "forevers":
er 31:35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
Jer 31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
Jer 31:37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

People who believe in RT should truly worry. If God's "forevers" to the Israelites ended, then His "forevers" to those who believe in Jesus may end as well.

God's people were Israel,not the Jews.

Isaiah 43:1:But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine.

Jesus stated to the Jews...

John 10:26:But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

John 10:27:My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Israel became Christians.

Acts 11:26 ''And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.''

 

[visionary]

God's people were Israel,not the Jews.

Isaiah 43:1:But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine.

Jesus stated to the Jews...

John 10:26:But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

John 10:27:My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Israel became Christians.

Acts 11:26 ''And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.''

known as a sect of Judaism [Pharisee] of the Way..