• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Which one of Noah's sons died in the flood?

Status
Not open for further replies.

elwill

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2008
1,049
23
41
cairo / egypt
✟23,830.00
Faith
Muslim
Marital Status
Single
 
Upvote 0

GeorgeTwo

Member
May 31, 2008
1,127
126
✟47,202.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Private


God's Holy Bible is inspired by Him and written FOR HIM by men. The following is what is meant regarding 7.

With the exception of small sections, like the Ten Commandments which were "written with the finger of God" (Exodus 31:18), the Bible was not verbally dictated. The writers were not secretaries of the Holy Spirit. They were human composers employing their own literary styles and idiosyncrasies. These human authors sometimes used human sources for their material (Josh 10:33; Acts 17:28; 1 Cor. 15:33; Titus 1:12)

Every book of the Bible is the composition of a human writer -- about forty of them in all. The Bible also manifests different human literary styles, from the mournful meter of Lamentations to the exalted poetry of Isaiah; from the simple grammar of John to the complex Greek of the Book of Hebrews. Scripture also manifests human perspectives. David spoke in Psalm 23 from a shepherd's perspective. Kings is written from a prophetic vantage point, and Chronicles from a priestly point of view, etc., etc. (Geisler & Howe)

I think you would do well to keep something from the Qur'an in mind
um hamza.

[FONT=&quot]002.136
PICKTHAL: Say (O Muslims): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes, and that which Moses and Jesus received, and that which the prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Muslims are commanded to believe in God's Holy Bible. Notice that they must not make any distinction between the past revelations and the revelations in the Qur'an. The revelations of the Qur'an and the revelations of the Bible are to be accepted as equals.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]004.150
PICKTHAL: Lo! those who disbelieve in Allah and His messengers, and seek to make distinction between Allah and His messengers, and say: We believe in some and disbelieve in others, and seek to choose a way in between; 004.151: Such are disbelievers in truth; and for disbelievers We prepare a shameful doom. 004.152 But those who believe in Allah and His messengers and make no distinction between any of them, unto them Allah will give their wages; and Allah was ever Forgiving, Merciful.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If Muslims do make a distinction between the Qur'an and God's Holy Bible it will result in a "shameful doom" and they will be judged as a disbeliever or an infidel.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]040.070
PICKTHAL: Those who deny the Scripture and that wherewith We send Our messengers. But they will come to know, 040.071 When carcans are about their necks and chains. They are dragged 040.072 Through boiling waters; then they are thrust into the Fire.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]And,[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

004.136
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His messenger and the Scripture which He hath revealed unto His messenger, and the Scripture which He revealed aforetime. Whoso disbelieveth in Allah and His angels and His scriptures and His messengers and the Last Day, he verily hath wandered far astray.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]These verses tell us that those who reject part of God's revelations will be thrown into the Fire (hell).

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The Qur'an claims to confirm the past revelations in many, many verses -- the books that came before it -- and you as a Muslim are commanded to hold it in honor.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]
 
Upvote 0

Lisa0315

Respect Catholics and the Mother Church!
Jul 17, 2005
21,378
1,650
58
At The Feet of Jesus
✟52,577.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican

I have no idea but if it is not in the original story, why go to another source which was written thousands of years after the original? Admittedly, the story of Noah was an oral tradition and written down by Moses many generations after the fact, but still...

Lisa
 
Upvote 0

Rasta

Senior Veteran
Jun 20, 2007
6,274
184
42
✟29,944.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single

By this logic, shouldn't we look to the Epic of Gilgamesh then, since it details the flood story hundreds if not thousands of years before the Talmud (Old Testament) was written?
 
Upvote 0

Lisa0315

Respect Catholics and the Mother Church!
Jul 17, 2005
21,378
1,650
58
At The Feet of Jesus
✟52,577.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
By this logic, shouldn't we look to the Epic of Gilgamesh then, since it details the flood story hundreds if not thousands of years before the Talmud (Old Testament) was written?

Not familiar with that. Do you have a link?

Lisa
 
Upvote 0

Lisa0315

Respect Catholics and the Mother Church!
Jul 17, 2005
21,378
1,650
58
At The Feet of Jesus
✟52,577.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
By this logic, shouldn't we look to the Epic of Gilgamesh then, since it details the flood story hundreds if not thousands of years before the Talmud (Old Testament) was written?

What I could find (which was not much) was a mention of the flood but no details.

Lisa
 
Upvote 0

Rasta

Senior Veteran
Jun 20, 2007
6,274
184
42
✟29,944.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
What I could find (which was not much) was a mention of the flood but no details.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesopotamian_mythology


Source: http://home.comcast.net/~chris.s/sumer-faq.html


Source: http://home.comcast.net/~chris.s/assyrbabyl-faq.html


This should be enough to get you started.
 
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,549
28,532
75
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,330.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,549
28,532
75
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,330.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Good question. I've got an answer. It is the same reason why you read the Bible rather than the Talmud or other sources, see Sumerian Myths. It is to maintain your presuppositions of reality.
If it is good enuf for the Jews and Muslims, it is good enuf for me.


Exodus 3:And 'Elohiym is saying to Mosheh, "I-shall-be/01961 hayah who I-shall-be/01961 hayah". And-He saying "Thus you shall say to sons of Yisra'el, 'I-shall-be/01961 hayah, He-sent-me unto-ye'".

John 8:57 Said then the Judeans towards Him, "Fifty years, not as-yet thou are having, and Abraham thou has seen?'
58 Said to them Jesus "Verily, verily, I am saying to ye, before Abraham's to be becoming/genesqai <1096> (5635) --I Am;
 
Upvote 0

GeorgeTwo

Member
May 31, 2008
1,127
126
✟47,202.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Private
In order to get my topic back on track. The Qur'an says:

(Remember) Noah, when he cried (to Us) aforetime: We listened to his (prayer) and delivered him and his family from great distress. -- Surah
21:76

What does this verse mean? It seems to mean that Noah and his complete family were saved from the flood.

True or not?
 
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,549
28,532
75
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,330.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Muslim source in order to cover up the mistake in the Qur'an.
Perhaps I just missed it, but what passage in the Koran tells about one or some of Noah's kin/family not getting into the ark?

Here are the 2 events of Noah and his family getting into the ark:

Genesis 6:18 And I set up covenant of Me with you, and you come to the ark, you and sons of you and woman of you and women of sons of you with you.
19 And from all of the living from all flesh, two from all you shall bring to the Ark to preserve alive with you, male/02145 zakar and female/05347 n@qebah they shall be.

Gene 7:1 And YHWH is saying to Noah come! you and all of house-hold of you to the ark, that you I see righteous in generation, the this.
2 From every of the beast the clean you shall take to seven seven a man/'iysh and its woman/'ishshah of him, and from the beast not clean, he two man/'iysh and its woman/'ishshah of him.
 
Upvote 0

GeorgeTwo

Member
May 31, 2008
1,127
126
✟47,202.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Private
Good question. I've got an answer. It is the same reason why you read the Bible rather than the Talmud or other sources, see Sumerian Myths. It is to maintain your presuppositions of reality.

What makes you assume I do not read the Talmud?

The belief in Jesus and His resurrection from the dead was explosive -- and way to early for any myths to creep in.

However, you can believe otherwise if it makes you feel better.
 
Upvote 0

GeorgeTwo

Member
May 31, 2008
1,127
126
✟47,202.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Private
Perhaps I just missed it, but what passage in the Koran tells about one or some of Noah's kin/family not getting into the ark?

Here it is:

So the Ark floated with them on the waves (towering) like mountains,
and Noah called out to his son, who had separated himself (from the rest):
"O my son! embark with us, and be not with the unbelievers!"


The son replied: "I will betake myself to some mountain: it will save me from the water."


Noah said: "This day nothing can save, from the command of Allah,
any but those on whom He hath mercy!" And the waves came between them, and the son was among those overwhelmed in the Flood. -- Surah 11:42-43


Kind of interesting in itself. There was only one entrance to the Ark.


If the "waves (towering) like mountains" had occurred when this member refused to get on the Ark, the water would have come into the Ark and sunk it.


Further than that, if there were waves like mountains this means that there would have been lots of wind.

How was it that this member who refused to get on the Ark could hear Noah over the noise of the wind from a diistance?
 
Upvote 0

peaceful soul

Senior Veteran
Sep 4, 2003
5,986
184
✟7,592.00
Faith
Non-Denom

For whatever reason you did, it serves no useful purpose to try to attack the other side as if that will make your assertions true. Calling attention to the Bible is not going to resolve any issues that someone may have with the Qu'ran or with Islam. As George has stated, part of the problem with alleged contradictions is that the accuser doesn't always realize his or her own limitations that he or she places upon the text and the fact that their thoughts and understandings are not infallible.

Can we know go forward without the references to the Bible?
 
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,549
28,532
75
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,330.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Here it is:......

Further than that, if there were waves like mountains this means that there would have been lots of wind.

How was it that this member who refused to get on the Ark could hear Noah over the noise of the wind from a diistance?
Perhaps they had a type of "megaphone" we use today. Interesting that word comes from the Greek words used in the NT/NC for "great-voice/sound"

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Revelation 16:1 And I hear a great/megalhV <3173> voice/fwnhV <5456> out of the sanctuary saying to the seven messengers : "Be ye going away! and be ye pouring out! the seven bowls of the fury of the God into the land".

3173. megas meg'-as (including the prolonged forms, feminine megale,

5456. phone fo-nay' probably akin to 5316 through the idea of disclosure;
 
Upvote 0

GeorgeTwo

Member
May 31, 2008
1,127
126
✟47,202.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Private
Perhaps they had a type of "megaphone" we use today. Interesting that word comes from the Greek words used in the NT/NC for "great-voice/sound"

LOL

I think there is another explanation for the supposed drowning of one of Noah's sons and also for the unbelief of Noah's wife.

Perhaps Muhammad was using this story as a lesson to his audience and making alterations in it to make some kind of a point or lesson to his audience?????

Let your imagination be your guide. If you wanted to teach a lesson of Noah's son who refused to get on the boat or Noah's wife who became an unbeliever how would you do it? What lesson would you try to get across? What did Muhammad think his audience needed to hear to believe him or obey his teachings? Were they doubting him and he needed to put some fear in them in order for them to come around?

I am suggesting that Muhammad accepted the story of the flood in the Hebrew Scriptures but used it to make a point of his own.




http://www.scripture4all.org/

Revelation 16:1 And I hear a great/megalhV <3173> voice/fwnhV <5456> out of the sanctuary saying to the seven messengers : "Be ye going away! and be ye pouring out! the seven bowls of the fury of the God into the land".

3173. megas meg'-as (including the prolonged forms, feminine megale,

5456. phone fo-nay' probably akin to 5316 through the idea of disclosure;[/quote]
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.