Which laws do we obey?

[Andrew]

There are 613 OT laws including the 10 Cs.

•Which ones are the NC Christian supposed to follow?
•Can we pick and choose? Or are we to follow them all?
•James says that if we break one law we are guilty of breaking all the others. So, how can we say that we've kept laws 1 to 5 when we've really broken all of them -- becos we failed in just one?

The 613 laws are listed here:

http://www.hisglory.us/documents/613_biblical_laws.htm

 

[nb_christseeker]

We live according to the law of the Spirit of Life.
You see, when you are born of the spirit, God writes his law on your heart now, which works in conjunction with your conscience to tell you what's right and wrong. Jesus summed up our duties perfectly:

1. Love one another, even as I (Christ) have loved you.
2. Deny yourself, take up your cross, and follow me.
3. Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.
4. Whatsoever you would have men do unto you, do ye also unto them.
5. Repent, and believe in the one that God has sent.
6. Those who eat my body and drink my blood have eternal life.

The big point is that we love because God first loved us.

The Mosaic law is nailed to the cross. It is used to show you that you are a sinner, show you that you need to repent, and to bring you to the gospel. We were once slaves to the law of sin and death, but now we are slaves to righteousness in Jesus.

The book of Galatians sums this whole matter up superbly. Just read through that book very carefully, and you will learn a LOT.

 

[Jim B]

We live according to the law of the Spirit of Life.
You see, when you are born of the spirit, God writes his law on your heart now, which works in conjunction with your conscience to tell you what's right and wrong. Jesus summed up our duties perfectly:

1. Love one another, even as I (Christ) have loved you.
2. Deny yourself, take up your cross, and follow me.
3. Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.
4. Whatsoever you would have men do unto you, do ye also unto them.
5. Repent, and believe in the one that God has sent.
6. Those who eat my body and drink my blood have eternal life.

The big point is that we love because God first loved us.

The Mosaic law is nailed to the cross. It is used to show you that you are a sinner, show you that you need to repent, and to bring you to the gospel. We were once slaves to the law of sin and death, but now we are slaves to righteousness in Jesus.

The book of Galatians sums this whole matter up superbly. Just read through that book very carefully, and you will learn a LOT.



Do you

Excellent, christseeker. This is a good summation of the believer's relationship to Law.

Good job.

Jim
\o/

 

[Andrew]

great post nb_christseeker,

Just 2 questions:

1. You said "God writes his law on your heart now" -- what are these "laws"? The 10Cs, or all 613 laws? Or can it even be something like "Don't date this man!" or "Give to this beggar but not to this ministry." i.e. anything as the Spirit leads.

2. What would your reaction be if someone preached on "Thou shalt not commit adultery" in order to help the congregation not commit adultery. Will preaching the law help them or stir up their flesh to commit adultery?

 

[Jim B]

great post nb_christseeker,

Just 2 questions:

1. You said "God writes his law on your heart now" -- what are these "laws"? The 10Cs, or all 613 laws? Or can it even be something like "Don't date this man!" or "Give to this beggar but not to this ministry." i.e. anything as the Spirit leads.

2. What would your reaction be if someone preached on "Thou shalt not commit adultery" in order to help the congregation not commit adultery. Will preaching the law help them or stir up their flesh to commit adultery?

May I (butt in and) offer a reply.

Jesus said,

Matthew 22
37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."​

These are the two tablets (love for God and others) of the law written in our hearts. On them hang all the Law.

For example, if I love God with all my heart, soul, and mind I will automatically keep the first four commands and (1). not have any other gods before Him, (2). I will not make an idols in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below or bow down to them or worship them; (3). I will not misuse the name of the LORD my God, and (4). I will remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.

If I love my neighbor as I love myself, then I will automatically keep the last six commandments: (5). I will honor my father and your mother, (6). I will not murder my neighbor, (7). I will not commit adultery, (8). I will not steal from him, (9). I will not give false testimony against him, and (10). I will not covet his house or his wife or his property.

This I will do because the Law of Love is engraved in my heart, not because I have to but because it is now my new nature to do so.

Whatayathink?

\o/

 

[servant4ever]

I believe exactly what you do, Jim B!

 

[Andrew]

Yes I agree Jim B.

There are only 2 'laws' for the NC believer, the royal law of love (which is what you've said) and the 'law' of faith ie believing in Jesus or faith for righteousness

But I also believe that the law written on our hearts today can include anything that the Holy Spirit puts there.

For eg, if you see a beggar on the street, the Holy Spirit may impress you to:

1. Give money
2. Not give money but food
3. Walk on

In that sense, there is no fixed law here for every 'beggar situation'.

Why is 2. possible? Because God may be dealing with the beggar -- not wanting him to depend on handouts anymore but to get up, clean up and get a job.

Another scenario, someone comes to you and asks you to bless his ministry with $100. Do you do it? How do you know he is not a con-artist?

So, if we just go by the law of love, then in both cases and at all times, we must give. But this cannot be the case.

I hope you understnd what I'm trying to say.

 

[rooster]

May I (butt in and) offer a reply.

Jesus said,

Matthew 22
37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."​

These are the two tablets (love for God and others) of the law written in our hearts. On them hang all the Law.

For example, if I love God with all my heart, soul, and mind I will automatically keep the first four commands and (1). not have any other gods before Him, (2). I will not make an idols in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below or bow down to them or worship them; (3). I will not misuse the name of the LORD my God, and (4). I will remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.

If I love my neighbor as I love myself, then I will automatically keep the last six commandments: (5). I will honor my father and your mother, (6). I will not murder my neighbor, (7). I will not commit adultery, (8). I will not steal from him, (9). I will not give false testimony against him, and (10). I will not covet his house or his wife or his property.

This I will do because the Law of Love is engraved in my heart, not because I have to but because it is now my new nature to do so.

Whatayathink?

\o/

This kinda describes how i feel about the law. But i would expand slowly the rest of the laws to be covered under the two commandments of love singled out by our Lord, not just the decalogue.

And i think all of Paul's words concerning the law has to be understood keeping these words of Christ in mind.

"Mat 5:17 Do not think that I came to annul the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to annul, but to fulfill.
Mat 5:18 Truly I say to you, Until the heaven and the earth pass away, in no way shall one iota or one point pass away from the Law until all comes to pass.
Mat 5:19 Therefore, whoever relaxes one of these commandments, the least, and shall teach men so, he shall be called least in the kingdom of Heaven. But whoever does and teaches them, this one shall be called great in the kingdom of Heaven."

"Until the heaven and the earth pass away, in no way shall one yod or one tittle pass away"
The language here is pretty clear is it not. With this in mind maybe one should reexamine his/her understanding of the law and re-examine Paul's words concerning the law, because v19 does make this issue concerning the law a very stern one.

Also, the law is not for our justification before God, not before Christ and not after. Neither is it an antitheses of Grace. Antitheses of law is anomos; lawlessness (in other words sin).

Law was given not as a condition for entry into the covenant (it was given out of his mercy and grace) but it was given as a condition of. Given so that Israel "shall be holy, for I am LORD your God;". Given so that Israel can be that "called out" nation, to be holy and apart, to be blessed by God and to bless the nations.

We can never tone down "Christ and his cross" and to fear God and keep his commandments to observe "the whole duty of man" will in no way diminish our Lord's work of atonement.
And we can never take take love away from its lofty place, but at the same time can our desire to be holy be in anyways diminished.

I myself is seeking that obedience.

 

[Jim B]

This kinda describes how i feel about the law. But i would expand slowly the rest of the laws to be covered under the two commandments of love singled out by our Lord, not just the decalogue.

And i think all of Paul's words concerning the law has to be understood keeping these words of Christ in mind.

"Mat 5:17 Do not think that I came to annul the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to annul, but to fulfill.
Mat 5:18 Truly I say to you, Until the heaven and the earth pass away, in no way shall one iota or one point pass away from the Law until all comes to pass.
Mat 5:19 Therefore, whoever relaxes one of these commandments, the least, and shall teach men so, he shall be called least in the kingdom of Heaven. But whoever does and teaches them, this one shall be called great in the kingdom of Heaven."

"Until the heaven and the earth pass away, in no way shall one yod or one tittle pass away"
The language here is pretty clear is it not. With this in mind maybe one should reexamine his/her understanding of the law and re-examine Paul's words concerning the law, because v19 does make this issue concerning the law a very stern one.

Also, the law is not for our justification before God, not before Christ and not after. Neither is it an antitheses of Grace. Antitheses of law is anomos; lawlessness (in other words sin).

Law was given not as a condition for entry into the covenant (it was given out of his mercy and grace) but it was given as a condition of. Given so that Israel "shall be holy, for I am LORD your God;". Given so that Israel can be that "called out" nation, to be holy and apart, to be blessed by God and to bless the nations.

We can never tone down "Christ and his cross" and to fear God and keep his commandments to observe "the whole duty of man" will in no way diminish our Lord's work of atonement.
And we can never take take love away from its lofty place, but at the same time can our desire to be holy be in anyways diminished.

I myself is seeking that obedience.

I take a different slant on this passage, rooster.

"Mat 5:17 Do not think that I came to annul the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to annul, but to fulfill.
Mat 5:18 Truly I say to you, Until the heaven and the earth pass away, in no way shall one iota or one point pass away from the Law until all comes to pass.
Mat 5:19 Therefore, whoever relaxes one of these commandments, the least, and shall teach men so, he shall be called least in the kingdom of Heaven. But whoever does and teaches them, this one shall be called great in the kingdom of Heaven."

I put the emphasis on the phrases “but to fulfill” and “until all comes to pass” (or, “till all be fulfilled” KJV; “until its purpose is achieved” NLT; “until all things [it foreshadows] are accomplished” AmpV).

My question is, Did Jesus fulfill the Law or not? If He did, then it has passed away. If He didn’t, it still remains in effect.

I believe that is the aim of this passage.

IMO.

\o/

 

[adamdavid]

Couldn't agree with you more, JimB

 

[rooster]

I take a different slant on this passage, rooster.


I put the emphasis on the phrases “but to fulfill” and “until all comes to pass” (or, “till all be fulfilled” KJV; “until its purpose is achieved” NLT; “until all things [it foreshadows] are accomplished” AmpV).

My question is, Did Jesus fulfill the Law or not? If He did, then it has passed away. If He didn’t, it still remains in effect.

I believe that is the aim of this passage.

IMO.

\o/

Then what did our Lord mean when he says "all come to pass", taken with "till heaven and earth pass away" , i think the all here might mean ALL, not just what has already happened.
Furthermore, in fulfilling the law, what did he in fact satisfy?
Your explanation of the verse is not satisfying because it is inconsistant with v19, and after that Christ goes on to expound upon the Law.
anyway your "slant" on it is worth some studying and praying over.
I'll be back.

 

[Jim B]

Then what did our Lord mean when he says "all come to pass", taken with "till heaven and earth pass away" , i think the all here might mean ALL, not just what has already happened.
Furthermore, in fulfilling the law, what did he in fact satisfy?
Your explanation of the verse is not satisfying because it is inconsistant with v19, and after that Christ goes on to expound upon the Law.
anyway your "slant" on it is worth some studying and praying over.
I'll be back.

Remember, Jesus was born under the Law to redeem them that were under the Law. Those to whom He spoke these words were still “under the Law,” not yet redeemed. It would not be finished until He said “It is finished!”

IMO

\o/

 

[New_Wineskin]

There are 613 OT laws including the 10 Cs.

•Which ones are the NC Christian supposed to follow?

Whichever ones the Lord wants each to follow as He tells them ( if any ) .

•Can we pick and choose? Or are we to follow them all?

I can't speak for anyone else . *I* can pick and choose of those that He says nothing . Of those He says something , whatever He says .

•James says that if we break one law we are guilty of breaking all the others. So, how can we say that we've kept laws 1 to 5 when we've really broken all of them -- becos we failed in just one?

Since the Law is for those under the Law , I do not attempt to keep any and so am not guilty of breaking any .

Since none keep *all* , it becomes moot . I know several parts of the Law that none are keeping ( at least in the west ) .

 

[Andrew]

Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

I believe Jesus fulfilled the law in our stead, otherwise he did not accomplish his work. God could not put aside the Old to estb the New unless someone fulfilled it. unless someone paid for sin, and unless someone died. Jesus did all that for us!

 

[TheScottsMen]

We either grace the grace or disgrace the grace

 

[Trish1947]

A new commandment I leave unto you, "That you love one another". as Jesus said, not an additional commandment. A NEW COMMANDMENT. If your loving your fellow man. Why would you be breaking his commandments. Its a new concept. Jesus was saying, I loved you first, I gave you the Holy Spirit to be your comforter, helper, teacher, abilities, even to love back, and have a compassionate heart towards man, now take what I have given you, and love each other, through the ability of the Holy Spirit. Through the Holy Spirit, you learn to love God back, you learn to love man back, you learn to forgive. there's no desire to hurt your fellow man, there's no desire to hurt God. All the commandments have to do with hurting your fellow man, or not loving God. If you have his Spirit dwelling inside, God has the preeminence, if your walking in the Spirit, your desire has been changed. You want to please God.

 

[Andrew]

Good post Trish!

Now I want to ask this: Most of us know that we are no longer under law but grace. We dont follow the 613 laws to earn favour with God or righteousness. We obey the New Commandment of love and obey the Spirit's leading.

But is it possible to be still under a system of law and not grace?

For example, the Spirit may have lead you once to fast about a certain problem/issue. You obeyed and the problem was solved. But then you turn that into a law such that whenever there is a similar problem now, you believe you must fast in order to solve the problem.

Once you enjoyed reading the Bible in the early morning. But then it soon became a law. You feel that you have to read the Bible in the early morning everyday otherwise God will be disappointed.

In short, although we profess to live under the New Cov of grace, many a times we still live under law, flesh and works. which is basically self-human-efforts (not inspired by the Spirit) to please God. And what God once told us to do, we turn it into a routine, a law, thinking that by doing it again, we will get God to make things happen.

Does anyone know what I'm talking about?

 

[9-iron]

Andrew, that is such a loaded question it may go off with even pulling the trigger.

"Mat 5:17 Do not think that I came to annul the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to annul, but to fulfill.

Exactly, He fullfilled it because you can't. It won't go away until the end times. The law still exist to show the corruptible, fallible and incapable man.

There is also a scripture somewhere that says something like 'Christ took away the handwriting against us'. I am interpreting that to mean He fullfilled the requirment of the law against us.

Then you could go into the whole we don't obey the law because it was only given to the Jews. Then we have to start a new thread or find an old one dealing with the issue.

 

[rooster]

I think we have to define legalism and law a little more clearly. Biblical greek and hebrew had no word for legalism and the closest to it would be "work of law" as used by Paul.
Likewise, when the LXX translated the word "Torah", it used "nomos" which does not convey the full meaning of the word. Nomos is strictly law, in a legal sense, while torah could mean law but at the same time it also means "instructions".

Also as i have previously pointed out, the Law as given at Sinai was never meant for Justification. It was meant as instructions for a people who shall become "a kingdom of priest and a holy nation".
The concept of grace through faith is as evident in the OT as in the new.

Mic 6:7 Will Jehovah be pleased with thousands of rams, with ten thousands of torrents of oil? Shall I give my first-born for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
Mic 6:8 O man, He has declared to you what is good. And what does Jehovah require of you, but to do justice, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God?

Hos 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

Also when Christ taught, he was giving us the right understanding of the statutes in the old testament.
Mat 7:12 Therefore, all things, whatever you desire that men should do to you, so also you should do to them; for this is the Law and the Prophets.

OT theology was not one of law observance to gain merit and thus recieve righteousness. But the traditions and the teachings of the religion in that day had turned it into such.
Christ comdemmed the hypocrisy in the religion in those days, and that they had built up around the law traditions that are graceless, loveless, and burdensome but he did not condemm the law and the prophets.

 

[rooster]

A new commandment I leave unto you, "That you love one another". as Jesus said, not an additional commandment. A NEW COMMANDMENT. If your loving your fellow man. Why would you be breaking his commandments. Its a new concept. Jesus was saying, I loved you first, I gave you the Holy Spirit to be your comforter, helper, teacher, abilities, even to love back, and have a compassionate heart towards man, now take what I have given you, and love each other, through the ability of the Holy Spirit. Through the Holy Spirit, you learn to love God back, you learn to love man back, you learn to forgive. there's no desire to hurt your fellow man, there's no desire to hurt God. All the commandments have to do with hurting your fellow man, or not loving God. If you have his Spirit dwelling inside, God has the preeminence, if your walking in the Spirit, your desire has been changed. You want to please God.

Lev 19:18 You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people; but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am LORD.

Before people misunderstand, many things are only the shadow of what Christ has given us and brought to us. Especially those things that concern ritual cleansing and 'kippur'.
What Christ has finished was the "covering off" the "wiping out" the "kippur", the "hilaskomai". This cannot be denied.
The veil has been torn down and he is the way into the outer courts, the inner courts and the Holy of holies. Without his righteousness we would be dead in the presence of God, for we are an unclean temple, defiled and corrupted.
And without what he has finished, the Holy Spirit cannot dwell in us or regenarate us for we have not been "covered over"

God is the same in the OT as in the new, the substance of the covenant in the old is the same as the new.
Christ came to show light upon the commandments, that we are not only to obey with our mouths and hands thinking it would imbune us with righteousness, but we are to be obedient in our hearts.

"fear God, obey his commandments, for that is the whole duty of man" is not at odds with the two commandments which Christ had singled out for upon which the whole law hangs.