Which Law Paul?

[SabbathBlessings]

The problem with that is the tutor/guardian is the Mosaic law (Galatians 3:24). . .so if we don't need a tutor/guardian, then we don't need the Mosaic law. . .which is precisely what the NT teaches in Galatians 3:25.

From the beginning with Abraham in the covenant of grace (Genesis 15:18), righteousness was by grace through faith (Genesis 15:6)--no law keeping.

God temporarily added law-keeping to that covenant of grace, not to make righteous--which was by faith only--but to reveal sin (Romans 3:20, 7:7) and to lead to Christ (Galatians 3:24).

Now that faith in Christ has come (the law is no longer needed to reveal sin or to lead to Christ for the Holy Spirit does that now), we are no longer under the supervision--tutorship--guardianship of the law (Galatians 3:25).

The law has done what it was intended to do. . .the old covenant is now obsolete. . .and we are back to a covenant of grace alone, (Ephesians 2:8-9) just as it was with Abraham.

It is for freedom (from the yoke of slavery to the law, Galatians 2:4, Galatians 5:1b) that Christ has set us free (Galatians 5:1a) and taken us back to a covenant of grace alone.

That is the gospel! (Galatians 1:6-8)

Doesn't matter whether it changed or not, we are no longer under its supervision.

We have been freed from a yoke of slavery (Galatians 5:1) to the law (Galatians 2:4).
We are not under its curse, for it is not given for the righteousness of justification, which is by faith only, as it was for Abraham (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3).

The law is for the righteousness of sanctification through obedience in the Holy Spirit (Romans 6-7), which leads to righteousness (Romans 6:16) leading to holiness (Romans 6:19), and does not curse us, ever.

So yes, the law has "changed," it cannot curse us.

Well you have some of it right but, the error is thinking the law of God ended. While the law does lead us to Christ and once we are led to Christ, we are not free to sin and disregard the law.

Abraham was righteous though faith and" Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.” Genesis 26:5.

Faith does not void the law but establishes the law. Romans 3:31 God's saints keep the commandments of God and the faith in Jesus Revelation 14:12.

As shown right before the second coming of Jesus!

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.


You quote:

The law is for the righteousness of sanctification through obedience in the Holy Spirit (Romans 6-7), which leads to righteousness (Romans 6:16) leading to holiness (Romans 6:19),

but than once we go through this process we are free to break the law of God? That's not what scripture teach us. John 14:15, John 15:10, 1 John 5:3, Revelation 12:17, 1 Cor 7:19, James 2:10-12, Revelation 14:12, 1 John 2:4, Matthew 5:19, Hebrews 8:10, Revelation 22:14 We do not keep God's law to be saved, we keep the law because of love and true faith. Obedience to God is a fruit of true faith. Being doers of the Word. James 1:22, Romans 2:13 We are told to examine ourselves, to ensure we are of true faith. 2 Corinthians 13:5

God bless

 

[faithisthekey1]

Was not Paul a Pharisee?
Indeed he never speaks againt the law of God. It is written in his heart.

I haven't read much of this thread, but you are spot on with your thoughts, well done. Believers are not under the law handed down at Sanai. Not being under the law means not being under righteousness of obeying the law. Our righteousness is faith in Christ.
Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness for everyone who believeth Romans10:4
And as you say, the law is now in our hearts

 

[faithisthekey1]

It should likewise be worth considering that he was referring to neither of these. . .
for the law (desire) of sin and the law (desire) of obeying God's law of Romans 7:21-25 is not the law of Romans 7:4; i.e., the Mosaic law, to which Paul was referring.
Nope. . .she is doing no such thing. . .you are the one doing that.

The law of God in Romans 7:4 is not the law (desire) of sin nor the law (desire) of obedience.
Romans 7:4 is the written code of the Mosaic law itself. . .it is not Paul's desires of Romans 7:21-25 regarding the written code of the Mosaic law, which desires are at war within Paul himself.

Nope. . .she is doing no such thing. . .Paul is the one stating that (Romans 7:4). . .take it up with him.

Paul said he was not under the law (2 Corinthians 9:20) but was under the law of Christ, which is the law of God (2 Corinthians 9:21).

I may be misunderstanding you, forgive me if I am. But Romans7:14-24 relates to one of the ten commandments, thou shalt not covet, this is the commandment constantly being broken

 

[Clare73]

Well you have some of it right but, the error is thinking the law of God ended. While the law does lead us to Christ and once we are led to Christ, we are not free to sin and disregard the law.

Strawman. . .

Abraham was righteous though faith and" Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.” Genesis 26:5.

Faith does not void the law but establishes the law. Romans 3:31 God's saints keep the commandments of God and the faith in Jesus Revelation 14:12.

See post #120.

As shown right before the second coming of Jesus!
Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
You quote: but than once we go through this process we are free to break the law of God?

Srawman. . .

That's not what scripture teaches us. John 14:15, John 15:10, 1 John 5:3, Revelation 12:17, 1 Cor 7:19, James 2:10-12, Revelation 14:12, 1 John 2:4, Matthew 5:19, Revelation 22:14 We do not keep God's law to be saved, we keep the law because of love and true faith. Obedience to God is a fruit of true faith. Being doers of the Word. James 1:22, Romans 2:13 We are told to examine ourselves, to ensure we are of true faith. 2 Corinthians 13:

 

[Clare73]

I may be misunderstanding you, forgive me if I am. But Romans7:14-24 relates to one of the ten commandments, thou shalt not covet, this is the commandment constantly being broken

Where do you see covetousness in the passage?

 

[faithisthekey1]

Where do you see covetousness in the passage?

All over the place. Lets backtrack a bit:
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
verses7-11

Note the commandment that is being referred to in the passage, which one slew Saul. ''Thou shalt not covet'' Thou shalt not lust, though shalt not have, or dwell on impure thoughts.
Now lets quote the rest, for Paul is giving an example as to why he had to die to the law/being under righteousness of obeying it. He has not started a new subject, he is carrying on, giving a fuller explanation of what he previously wrote:

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death

Note especially verse 23. It is all about what goes on on the inside of man, which, if we are honest, is where our consciences are most pricked also. Thou shalt not covet relates to what no one but you and God need know about, it relates to what goes on, on the inside. Saul the pharisee could faultlessly obey the legalistic law, Paul said he did, the problem with sin and the law was the Ten Commandments. Verses 7-11 was given as the example, verses 14-24 elaborates on it

 

[Clare73]

All over the place. Lets backtrack a bit:
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
verses7-11

Note the commandment that is being referred to in the passage, which one slew Saul. ''Thou shalt not covet'' Thou shalt not lust, though shalt not have, or dwell on impure thoughts.
Now lets quote the rest, for Paul is giving an example as to why he had to die to the law/being under righteousness of obeying it. He has not started a new subject, he is carrying on, giving a fuller explanation of what he previously wrote:

And his fuller explanation is a presentation of the existing powers or forces within him which are driving his behavior, which principles he calls "laws," like we call the force of gravity, the "law of gravity."

The desire to sin, he calls "the law of sin," and the desire to obey God, he calls "the law of my mind," which are two powers or forces operating within him in conflict with one another.
He is not speaking of a specific sin in Romans 7:15-24, as in covetousness, lust, thoughts, rather he is speaking of the power or force behind all of them, causing him to do what he does not want to do.

And his deliverance from this battle within when he was under the law is through Jesus Christ our Lord (vv. 24-25).

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death

Note especially verse 23. It is all about what goes on on the inside of man, which, if we are honest, is where our consciences are most pricked also. Thou shalt not covet relates to what no one but you and God need know about, it relates to what goes on, on the inside. Saul the pharisee could faultlessly obey the legalistic law, Paul said he did, the problem with sin and the law was the Ten Commandments. Verses 7-11 was given as the example, verses 14-24 elaborates on it

 

[faithisthekey1]

And his fuller explanation is a presentation of the existing powers or forces within him which are driving his behavior, which principles he calls "laws," like we call the force of gravity the "law of gravity."

The desire to sin, he calls "the law of sin," and the desire to obey God, he calls "the law of my mind," which are two powers or forces operating within him in conflict with one another.
He is not speaking of a specific sin in Romans 7:15-24, as in covetousness, lust, thoughts, rather he is speaking of the power or force behind all of them, causing him to do what he does not want to do.

We will have to agree to disagree as to what law he is breaking, however I do agree with one point you made, though maybe not entirely as you meant it:
''And his fuller explanation is a presentation of the existing powers or forces within him which are driving his behavior''

The power of sin is the law 1 Corinthians 15:56

 

[Clare73]

We will have to agree to disagree as to what law he is breaking, however I do agree with one point you made, though maybe not entirely as you meant it:
''And his fuller explanation is a presentation of the existing powers or forces within him which are driving his behavior''

The power of sin is the law 1 Corinthians 15:56

The power of sin to kill is the curse of the law.

 

[faithisthekey1]

The power of sin to kill is the curse of the law.

If you mean the power of sin is the laws abilty to condemn you if you live under it, that being the curse of the law, I completely agree.

For sin shall not be your master, for you are not under law but under grace Romans 6:14

Which kind of proves Saul the pharisee was being referred to in verses 14-24

 

[Clare73]

If you mean the power of sin is the laws abilty to condemn you if you live under it, that being the curse of the law, I completely agree.

Yes, it condemns those who do not keep the law according to God's standards, which was everyone of the Jews (Romans 3:9-10).

For sin shall not be your master, for you are not under law but under grace Romans 6:14

Which kind of proves Saul the pharisee was being referred to in verses 14-24

Yes, it was Saul when he lived under the law before his conversion.

 

[faithisthekey1]

Yes, it condemns those who do not keep it according to God's standards, which is everyone (Romans 3:20).

For sin shall not be your master, for you are not under law but under grace Romans 6:14

Which kind of proves Saul the pharisee was being referred to in verses 14-24

[/QUOTE]
I think you need to sort out how you respond on here. You are mixing up your quotes with some of mine

 

[Clare73]

I think you need to sort out how you respond on here.
You are mixing up your quotes with some of mine

Already corrected. . .thanks.

 

[HARK!]

Yes, it condemns those who do not keep the law according to God's standards, which was everyone of the Jews (Romans 3:9-10).

Romans 3:9-10
English: American Standard Version

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we before laid to the charge both of Jews and Greeks, that they are all under sin; 10 as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one;

Don't forget the Greeks.

 

[BobRyan]

And his fuller explanation is a presentation of the existing powers or forces within him which are driving his behavior, which principles he calls "laws," like we call the force of gravity, the "law of gravity."

Paul never said "there is a law inside me saying do not covet" as if he is trying to get rid of that idea.

Rather he says that "the law of sin" is in him causing him to sin against what is mind/will as agreed with.

The desire to sin, he calls "the law of sin," and the desire to obey God, he calls "the law of my mind,"

True and his conscience is informed by scripture telling him "do not covet" - he is not just making it up out of thin air.

Paul says scripture is to be used for "Doctrine and correction" this is why he quotes "do not covet" directly out of the written Law of Moses in Rom 13.

 

[Clare73]

Paul never said "there is a law inside me saying do not covet" as if he is trying to get rid of that idea.

Strawman. . .

Rather he says that "the law of sin" is in him causing him to sin against what is mind/will as agreed with.

Agreed.. .

True and his conscience is informed by scripture telling him "do not covet" - he is not just making it up out of thin air.

Paul says scripture is to be used for "Doctrine and correction" this is why he quotes "do not covet" directly out of the written Law of Moses in Rom 13.

Your point?

 

[Paul4JC]

A covenant and a law are two different things.

Where did I say "a covenant and a law?" Whether laws, commands, precepts, statutes, instructions, regulations, etc; we could go in circles playing with words, they’re all related. The Old Covenant was implemented as the law of Moses or Book of the Covenant or Book of the Law.

[Exo 24:7 NIV] 7 Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it to the people. They responded, "We will do everything the LORD has said; we will obey."


[Jos 8:34 NIV] 34 Afterward, Joshua read all the words of the law--the blessings and the curses--just as it is written in the Book of the Law.


The Apostle Paul promoted faith apart from the Book of the Law.


[Rom 3:27-28 NIV] 27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

Again, it’s all summarized in the book of Hebrews.

[Heb 7:18-20, 22, 27-28 NIV] 18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God. 20 And it was not without an oath! Others became priests without any oath, ... 22 Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantor of a better covenant. ... 27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men in all their weakness; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.

The Old Covenant was removed by Christ Jesus himself.

He does not put the old laws into our hearts but new ones.

[Heb 8:10 NIV] 10 This is the (New) covenant I will establish with the people of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.

[Jhn 15:12 ESV] 12 "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.

[1Jo 3:22-24 NIV] and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God's commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.


Btw, what laws and commands exactly are you trying to keep? What is [CLV]?

 

[daq]

Where did I say "a covenant and a law?" Whether laws, commands, precepts, statutes, instructions, regulations, etc; we could go in circles playing with words, they’re all related. The Old Covenant was implemented as the law of Moses or Book of the Covenant or Book of the Law.

[Exo 24:7 NIV] 7 Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it to the people. They responded, "We will do everything the LORD has said; we will obey."


[Jos 8:34 NIV] 34 Afterward, Joshua read all the words of the law--the blessings and the curses--just as it is written in the Book of the Law.


The Apostle Paul promoted faith apart from the Book of the Law.


[Rom 3:27-28 NIV] 27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

Again, it’s all summarized in the book of Hebrews.

[Heb 7:18-20, 22, 27-28 NIV] 18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God. 20 And it was not without an oath! Others became priests without any oath, ... 22 Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantor of a better covenant. ... 27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men in all their weakness; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.

The Old Covenant was removed by Christ Jesus himself.

He does not put the old laws into our hearts but new ones.

[Heb 8:10 NIV] 10 This is the (New) covenant I will establish with the people of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.

[Jhn 15:12 ESV] 12 "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.

[1Jo 3:22-24 NIV] and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God's commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.


Btw, what laws and commands exactly are you trying to keep? What is [CLV]?

It seems to me by what you are saying, (in the smaller quote below), that your doctrine is essentially that the Father's laws are not in His Torah, so it was necessary to abolish or do away with the Torah. Is that indeed what you believe?

Specifically here in the following commentary:

The Old Covenant was removed by Christ Jesus himself. He does not put the old laws into our hearts but new ones.
[Heb 8:10 NIV] 10 This is the (New) covenant I will establish with the people of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.

 

[HARK!]

The Old Covenant was removed by Christ Jesus himself.

Not according to his Apostles.

(CLV) 1Pt 2:21
For for this were you called, seeing that Christ also suffered for your sakes, leaving you a copy, that you should be following up in the footprints of Him

Yahshua followed the Torah.

(CLV) 1Jn 2:6
he who is saying that he is remaining in Him ought also himself to be walking according as He walks.

Yahshua walked in the Torah