which is more wise...

[GrayArea]

A christian falls from faith because of a question they stumble on. Should the fallen bring up that uncertainty to christians in order to seek help? It could potentially harm their faith. Which then is more wise, to remain in doubt or to potentially lead another into that same uncertainty?

Ideas are contagious things.

 

[Locket]

It's better to ask questions. Not saying the first person the christian asks will have the answer. It might be one of those questions where no one knows. But if the christian never asks they'll always wonder.

 

[pmcleanj]

We believe that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Light.

If He isn't the Truth, then there isn't any point in believing in Him. If He is the Truth, then enough diligent questioning, enough engaging ideas, enough honesty with himself and with others, will reveal the Truth.

The only reason to avoid digging deeply into the questions that threaten our faith, is a secret fear that our faith will prove false. I can't see that that's a valid fear: revealing falsehood is good, not bad. Revealing the Truth is good, too. Only good can come of diligent questioning.

 

[GrayArea]

Thanks, and good points. Well then....

Let's say you're standing in your yard watering the plants. Your two year old is playing in the yard when along comes a speeding truck and he's in danger. Do you..

1) Stand back and do nothing
2) Tell him calmly "No, that could hurt you" and continue watering.
3) Grab the child kicking and screaming if you have to and save him/her.

So why is the truck even an option? Can't God give us the freedom of a world to explore and talents to serve him with without the threat of eternal death? This is an overly simplified version of an age old problem but the only solution that i can think of is that even after death, one can be saved. If not, if death is final, exists, and is eternal, then how could i possibly bare heaven while people are suffering? It seems more like a punishment than a reward.

Sometimes, for me, it's just more comforting to know life is random, all of which death is the end. *sigh... yet, there's something true, something romantic and alluring about christianity that makes me long for a simple faith i just can't seem to have. Any suggestions?

 

[Serapha]

This is an overly simplified version of an age old problem but the only solution that i can think of is that even after death, one can be saved. If not, if death is final, exists, and is eternal, then how could i possibly bare heaven while people are suffering? It seems more like a punishment than a reward.

Hi there!




The Word of God is the Christian's guide, and no where does the Bible indicate that there is a second chance at salvation.


~serapha~

 

[Locket]

So why is the truck even an option? Can't God give us the freedom of a world to explore and talents to serve him with without the threat of eternal death?

He did. Adam and Eve messed up. They gave us a one-way ticket straight to you-know. God's the one that gave us another option, a way out.
Here, let me change your analogy jsut a bit. Say the two year old's on a raiload track with a train coming. But he ties himself to the track. He can't get out and the train's still coming. We stand there with a knife ready to cut him free. There's still time.
He can either wave us away and say "Oh no I've got it." or he can say "Please let me free!" Your pick.

 

[NJA]

Gray - God offers the kingdom of heaven freely to whosoever wants it, he even sends people like me out to tell people how to get there, but he won't force it upon anyone. People have to choose God's will, or their own.

Is that unfair ?

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

A christian falls from faith because of a question they stumble on. Should the fallen bring up that uncertainty to christians in order to seek help? It could potentially harm their faith. Which then is more wise, to remain in doubt or to potentially lead another into that same uncertainty?

Ideas are contagious things.

THe person should seek the Lord in prayer and ask Him to reveal it, realizing that every Christian has to walk this uncomfortable road where doubts do arise, until we reach the spot in our faith where we know and don't have any more doubts. It's perfectly normal to doubt, especially for new or young Christians, and God helps us through it. We all survive as we remain in Him, and God is sovereign. All who are His will be kept by Him be His providence. Yes-it is important to ask seasoned, knowledgable Christians. He is sovereign and will bring all His children to the truth. The key thing is to accept what the Lord reveals, even if it isn't what we had in mind.

 

[GrayArea]

Locket, I see what you're saying but i'm still not sure i understand. If you were a father who's son was tied to the tracks, would it matter what the child said when their life is in danger? Would you wait for a "please" or "I can do it" when saftey is just a scissor snip away? Wouldn't you snatch your child to safety regardless of their naive concepts of right and wrong when the danger is so apparent?

It seems to me a shepherd would block off the way to the cliffs edge instead of sitting by and saying "Have it your way." as they hopelessly fell.

I think we're far too childlike in our perceptions to make such important decisions concerning our salvation and death. We can't fully understand what death is and if we could, then who in the world could honestly choose it? What kind of choice is that?

I understand the importance of having loyalty by will rather than force. True freedom though would be having your choice between an abundance of blessings WITHOUT the risk of death and eternal damnation due to our own flawed concepts of right and wrong. I just think that yes, idealistically is unfair to have sin and death as an option. God can easily make that train disappear or block off the cliff for us. Either that, or give us a second chance.

Whitehorse, i understand that my limited ability to understand God doesn't have anything to do with whether or how God actually exists. In fact, reason has little to do with faith in whole. The heart of Christianity lies in the simple message of love and grace. Unfortunately that message lies buried beneath layers and layers of dogma and is subject to scholarly interpretations and turning people bitterly away. The problem lies in knowing truth when you see it.

 

[carmi]

Let's say you're standing in your yard watering the plants. Your two year old is playing in the yard when along comes a speeding truck and he's in danger. Do you..

1) Stand back and do nothing
2) Tell him calmly "No, that could hurt you" and continue watering.
3) Grab the child kicking and screaming if you have to and save him/her.

1) God did not stand back and did nothing. He came down and gave His life.
2) He does tell me and warn me of things that could hurt me, and since He continues watering.
3) Yes, and He on more than one occasion grabbed me and put me out of harm's way.

So why is the truck even an option?

You ever watched a movie? The hero going through all kinds of trouble, risking his life to rescue the woman he loves. Happy end.

Now to real life. Do you just sit and wait for love to happen or do you go out and out of your way to meet someone. You have to go out. If you sit were you are and the other person sits where he/she is, you won't meet in person (ever).

In your example the truck is the danger, it represents death.

The first alternative you offered was standing back and doing nothing. And that's not what God is doing, He did something and He did Himself. I don't believe that God does not care about me, does not care whether or not I might get hit, hurt, killed. He does care and He stepped in.

The second alternative you offered is God telling us that He made a provision, that there is a way out, and He continues to do so. If we choose His way, He will continue to water (He is the Living Water) and He does not even stopped with those who don't choose His way - many people who don't believe live to a ripe old age. And He admonishes and talks to them in many ways.

The third alternative you offered - well, many people have terrible accidents, threatening diseases (believers and non-believers alike). He gives ample time and opportunities to non-believers and He gives them also to believers who are slacking, backsliding (for all practical purposes I could have died at least on 3 occasions but I am still alive).

Can't God give us the freedom of a world to explore and talents to serve him with without the threat of eternal death?

First, He does give us freedom and talents to serve Him.

Secondly, I am puzzled about the eternal death you are talking about.

"Yea, though I walk through the valley of the SHADOW of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me."

That's from Psalm 23 - notice it says the valley of the shadow of death, not the valley of death. There is a difference whether you are hit by the shadow of something or the real thing. If a tree falls on you, you are done for. But if you are only in the shadow of the tree - less sun and it's a bit chilly maybe. And shadows do pass.

Jesus Christ spoke of mansions, he did not speak of tombs in heaven.

If not, if death is final, exists, and is eternal, then how could i possibly bare heaven while people are suffering? It seems more like a punishment than a reward.

The gift of salvation is available for all - but not all avail themselves of this gift. And believers and non-believers suffer. The difference is that a believers knows that it won't last forever, it will pass and they will enter a place where there is no suffering.

And remember the second alternative you offered in your truck example: God does talk and He wants us to listen. But not all do. Eventually the child will be old enough to leave the house, his parents. If he does not heed, does not want to remember all the warnings and hints he received (beware of trucks, they might hit you), he carelessly crosses a street not knowing what is going to hit him.

*sigh... yet, there's something true, something romantic and alluring about christianity that makes me long for a simple faith i just can't seem to have. Any suggestions?

Romance needs two people relating to each other. What good is to me if I am told over and over again that someone loves me. I want have a relationship, I want have romance in my love. But when I choose to believe that this person loves me and I choose to love that person in return, then you have a personal relationship. Song of Solomon comes to my mind, Jesus references to a place He is preparing for us, Paul talking of the mystery in Eph. 6, the marriage reference in Revelation.

It is romantic - from riches to rags. Jesus the King comes down, leaves the palace and suffers cruelty and trials so that He can take us home. And He dies so that we can have life, eternal life (not eternal death).

As to suggestions for a simple faith:

There is a truck out there. God did not stand back but He did something to prevent that you'll get hit by that truck for good (or rather for worse). There is a way you can choose so that truck will pass by without hitting you. He is continually telling you that you could get terribly hurt and will suffer terribly, if you don't listen to His promptings. And one day He will grab you and take you home. Because that's where He is and that's where He wants you to be. He has prepared that place for you, you don't have to pay anything (He has paid it all and in full). He was not content to leave you where you are right now, He did not just call you up for a date, take you to dinner - no, He loved you so much He died for you, in your place so that you may live.

 

[Mustaphile]

Is it your own salvation you are concerned about or the salvation of others?

 

[carmi]

Locket, I see what you're saying but i'm still not sure i understand. If you were a father who's son was tied to the tracks, would it matter what the child said when their life is in danger? Would you wait for a "please" or "I can do it" when saftey is just a scissor snip away? Wouldn't you snatch your child to safety regardless of their naive concepts of right and wrong when the danger is so apparent?

You want God to force you to love Him and do what He knows is best for you? Do you want him to railroad you into heaven? (pun intended). What kind of love would that be, if it is forced upon an indivudual? Would I really feel loved and be happy, if someone dragged me by the hair into his house (even if it would be a palace) but I really don't want to be there because I don't love that person. Would the other person feel loved (knowing that he forced me, dragged me into his place), would he feel happy knowing I am where he wants me to be? Not unless he has the mentality of an abuser who gets the kick out of controlling another human being.

Suppose a man loves a woman. Is he entitled to that woman's love? Does she have to love him in return? My answer would be no, he is not entitled. He cannot and he should not force me. He can wait patiently until I come around and change my mind, but forcing me would not result in loving him in return.

God loves you and He wants you to love Him - but He does not force you. He sends you invitations, sets up meetings - all of which you can ignore. He gave up His only begotten Son (the Son a loved and in whom He was pleased), He gave Him for us, He gave Himself for us ... He loved us so much that He died for us. What more can we ask? Especially since He does not require us to die for Him, all He requires us to do is to love Him and to follow Him. If we don't - well, there will be no happy end. A marriage in heaven (but without whoever does not want).

Would you want to marry someone whom you know does not love you? Would you want to be with someone, if you have to force that person? Would you rather be a spouse to someone or that person's warden in the prison you have to prepare. And the person might always want to break out. You already mentioned that heaven seems to be more like punishment than a reward.

 

[Locket]

And I know of times where God has snipped me or pushed me to get me out of harm's way. He does it all the time to everybody whether we realize it or not.
And like Carmi said, if the love is forced on you it isn't real love. You can be put in the finest most grand place in the universe but unless you WANT to be there it'll feel like a prison.
God is a gentleman He doesn't force His way into our hearts.

(O, btw, you said something about anyone who knew what death really was wouldn't chose it. Wrong. People who have read the Bible, gone to church for 20+ years and who KNOW what death is still chose the other way with their eyes wide open to the consequences)

 

[GrayArea]

Mustaphile, I speak for non-Christians, moral people who in all honesty before God and church can't confess to believe what they don't understand.

Carmi, thanks for a very thorough and detailed response. =)

Do you just sit and wait for love to happen or do you go out and out of your way to meet someone. You have to go out.

If love were dependant on actions, no infant in this world would be loved. There is nothing more physically demanding, more emotionally taxing and less rewarding than motherhood. Yet the mother's love is unconditional despite the fact the baby has done nothing to deserve it but simply exist. How much greated is Gods love for us. (all of us)


God does talk and He wants us to listen. But not all do. Eventually the child will be old enough to leave the house, his parents. If he does not heed, does not want to remember all the warnings and hints he received (beware of trucks, they might hit you), he carelessly crosses a street not knowing what is going to hit him.

If i gave my son the choice and he turned on me when i offered him help. If i could have stepped in and pushed him clear of the truck but didn't. Would i simply stop loving him and leave him to suffer the rest of his life alone because of it? nope. First, I'd feel incredibly guilty! I wouldn't abandon him forever simply because he was being careless and crude. My love for him isn't that shallow and restrained. Surely having created us God must understand our shortcomings. Surely having sent Jesus he must understand forgiveness without boudries better than I. How is it possible then that his children still die?

You want God to force you to love Him and do what He knows is best for you? Do you want him to railroad you into heaven? (pun intended). What kind of love would that be, if it is forced upon an indivudual?

Do what's best for me? Yes. I do. Force me to love him? Can one stand in God's presence and NOT love him for saving us even if it had been agaisnt our will?

When i told my daughter at the age of 2 not to put her hand on the stove, consiquently igniting her nightgown, she yelled at me. She not only yelled but she kicked and screamed and beat on me. She even said she hated me for doing stuff like that on several occasions. Todlers do that. So then, did I pull her to safety FOR love or OUT of love? Would i tell her she has to love me because i saved her silly little tail from 3rd degree burns? Nope. I could care less. I just wanted her to be safe because i love her. To love or to be loved?

 

[GrayArea]

(O, btw, you said something about anyone who knew what death really was wouldn't chose it. Wrong. People who have read the Bible, gone to church for 20+ years and who KNOW what death is still chose the other way with their eyes wide open to the consequences)

I thought i understood what morning was once... I was wrong.

When you read and are told about things all the time they become familiar, not real. Experience is the only true way to understanding. I've heard it said by pastors that they have read the same verse so many times they can't comprehend. Yet only when the time came that they were most desperate in their pain to understand, did it finally become real.

 

[Mustaphile]

If love were dependant on actions, no infant in this world would be loved. There is nothing more physically demanding, more emotionally taxing and less rewarding than motherhood. Yet the mother's love is unconditional despite the fact the baby has done nothing to deserve it but simply exist. How much greated is Gods love for us. (all of us)

Would you agree that if you know love, you know God?

 

[GrayArea]

I would agree that many believe they know love yet do not claim to know God. That also many know love because they know God and that others may know God and not know love.

Tricky question! There are perhaps as many definitions of love as there are for God and while God may be love, love may not necessarily be God.

Answer: I'm not sure. Can you clarify?

 

[Mustaphile]

Experience is the only true way to understanding.

I would agree. So without experience we have little real understanding, and without understanding it seems strange (even misguided) that we should be held accountable for being ignorant. I am just curious whether it's God your upset with or doctrine that upsets you. Have you looked for alternate ways to approach the issue? The crux of the problem seems to be eternal damnation and what qualifies you for it. Other school of thoughts exist on the matter that are not necessarily discussed in mainstream belief. You seem to be a person who needs to question, and not all mainstream denominations really cater for a questioning mind.

 

[Mustaphile]

I would agree that many believe they know love yet do not claim to know God. That also many know love because they know God and that others may know God and not know love.

Tricky question! There are perhaps as many definitions of love as there are for God and while God may be love, love may not necessarily be God.

Answer: I'm not sure. Can you clarify?

I'll be happy with the, 'I'm not sure' answer.

If we are not able to completely know the mind of God (given our limited experience and understanding), are we really able to judge who should go to heaven and who should not? Additionally, is making that judgement even required of us? If someone asked me whether any specific individual was going to heaven or hell, I would have to reply that I don't know. I don't think anyone is really qualified to make that judgment. I also think that we should focus on our own personal growth in Christ, rather than concerning ourselves with whether others are 'saved' or not. Our witness is the way we live, rather than the creed we profess. If we follow Christs commandment to love one another, does it matter if we profess ourselves to be christians or not? Whats more important, the label or the actual substance inside?

 

[GrayArea]

If we are not able to completely know the mind of God (given our limited experience and understanding), are we really able to judge who should go to heaven and who should not? Additionally, is making that judgement even required of us? If someone asked me whether any specific individual was going to heaven or hell, I would have to reply that I don't know. I don't think anyone is really qualified to make that judgment.

AMEN, Mustaphile!

I am just curious whether it's God your upset with or doctrine that upsets you. Have you looked for alternate ways to approach the issue?

Who am i to question God? No, it's my perceptions of Him i put to the test. It doesn't upset me or hinder my faith so much as perturb me that my perceptions could be so clouded and limiting. The doctrine and dogma i was raised to believed in restrained my heart and mind when it should have been freeing it. Believe me, it hasn't made things easy but at least i'm honest to myself and God!

I need more direction in which to find alternative approaches. If you have any sources lay them on me!

I also think that we should focus on our own personal growth in Christ, rather than concerning ourselves with whether others are 'saved' or not.

Isn't it better to pray for others in need than to praddle on about your own salvation? After all, even your salvation God's to handle and not up to you to decide or influence. Ultimately, i think we should grow to serve not to pad our own thrones.