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Featured LDS Which Gospel: Original or Restored?

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by Phoebe Ann, Sep 7, 2019.

  1. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    Galatians 2
    6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

    Galatians 2
    15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
    ...........................................................................................................................

    Mormonism:

    The gospel is our Heavenly Father’s plan of happiness. The central doctrine of the gospel is the Atonement of Jesus Christ. The Prophet Joseph Smith said, “The first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost” (Articles of Faith 1:4).

    In its fulness, the gospel includes all the doctrines, principles, laws, ordinances, and covenants necessary for us to be exalted in the celestial kingdom. The Savior has promised that if we endure to the end, faithfully living the gospel, He will hold us guiltless before the Father at the Final Judgment (see 3 Nephi 27:16).
    Gospel

    .............................................................................................
    One of the necessary ordinances is marriage for time and eternity. The candidate for eternal life must be considered worthy to have that ordinance performed in a Mormon temple.

    Mormons and non-Mormons try to discuss the Gospel. The arguments are futile because they have two very different versions.
     
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  2. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    You said: "One of the necessary ordinances is marriage for time and eternity. The candidate for eternal life must be considered worthy to have that ordinance performed in a Mormon temple."

    Or they need to be performed by proxy:

    (New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:27 - 29)

    27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
    28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
    29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

    I could not join a church that does not believe in baptism for the dead. The dead will be resurrected and that is why there is baptism for the dead. I know this to be true.
     
  3. twin.spin

    twin.spin Trust the LORD and not on your own understanding

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    The Biblical Christian Gospel is the only true gospel that God revealed.

    "For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith." Rom 1:17

    "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." Rom 3:28

    "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." John 3:36
     
  4. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    He is the way said:
    Which Gospel: Original or Restored?

    Mormons are taught to say, "I know this to be true." It doesn't mean anything to us other than that you learned to say what you were taught to say.

    Baptism for the dead is not a commandment nor is it the gospel of Christ. Trinitarians do not practice that.

    Baptism for the dead is best known as a doctrine of the Latter Day Saint movement, which has practiced it since 1840. It is currently practiced by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church), where it is performed only in dedicated temples, as well as in several other current factions of the movement. Those who practice this rite view baptism as an essential requirement to enter the Kingdom of God, and therefore practice baptism for the dead to offer it by proxy to those who died without the opportunity to receive it. The LDS Church teaches that those who have died may choose to accept or reject the baptisms done on their behalf.

    The modern term itself is derived from a phrase "baptised for the dead" occurring in one verse of the New Testament (1 Corinthians 15:29), though the meaning of that phrase is an open question among scholars. Early heresiologists Epiphanius of Salamis (Panarion 28) and Chrysostom (Homilies 40) attributed the practice respectively to the Cerinthians and to the Marcionites, whom they identified as heretical "Gnostic" groups.[1] For that reason, the practice was forbidden by the early Church, and is therefore not practiced in modern mainstream Christianity, whether Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic, or any Protestant churches.
    Baptism for the dead - Wikipedia

    "Mormons believe that their church has missionaries in the 'spirit world' who are busy spreading the Mormon gospel to dead people who have not yet received it. Should any of these dead people want to convert to Mormonism, they are required to abide by all its rules, one of which is water baptism. Hence the need for proxies to receive the corporeal waters of baptism."
    Mormonism’s Baptism for the Dead

    Joseph Smith erroneously taught:
    And now, my dearly beloved brethren and sisters, let me assure you that these are principles in relation to the dead and the living that cannot be lightly passed over, as pertaining to our salvation. For their [the dead’s] salvation is necessary and essential to our salvation, as Paul says concerning the fathers—that they without us cannot be made perfect—neither can we without our dead be made perfect. (D&C 128:15)
    Why We Cannot Be Made Perfect Without Our Dead
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2019
  5. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    I only say I know something when I do know it. The reason there is baptism for the dead is because of the resurrection. Some people assume that baptism for the dead was practiced by heretical and or Gnostic groups. However, that does not concur with what is taught by Paul.

    The gospel is taught to the dead:

    (New Testament | 1 Peter 4:6)

    6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
     
  6. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    That's not an assumption. The only time we find the practice mentioned in the fathers, it is with reference to Gnostic heretics who are openly mocked at the sources. We're talking 4th-5th century sources like St. John Chrysostom, 1400 years before Joseph Smith was even born.

    Is it? Is that why even the verse you've come up with here to justify your sick abnormalities says "WAS"? Do "Was" in "Is" mean the same thing in Mormonese? The entire context of the verse is talking about the difference of how things used to be, before people came to Christ, and how they are now, among the audience to whom the apostle is now writing (fellow Jewish Christians who used to not be Christians). From the beginning of the chapter (emphasis added):

    1 Therefore, since Christ suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God. 3 For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles--when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries.

    4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you. 5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

    +++

    Pretty odd, huh? It's almost like this wasn't establishing something for you to do (or else the early church would have received it and done it, but it is not even found among the men who we know were taught by the apostles themselves), but rather explaining what was done and why. :scratch::idea:
     
  7. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    Paul did not live in the 4th-5th century. You are comparing apples to oranges. Yes the gospel WAS taught to the dead and it still IS being taught to the dead. The living and the dead will both be judged, but those who do not understand the gospel will be taught so they can be judged in equality.
     
  8. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    13 And you, being dead... hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

    1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead ...

    4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead...

    17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

    39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
     
  9. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    (Old Testament | Exodus 20:6)

    6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

    (New Testament | John 14:21)

    21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

    (New Testament | John 15:6 - 14)

    6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
    7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
    8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
    9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
    10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
    11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
    12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
    13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
    14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
     
  10. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    There is absolutely no evidence for this whatsoever. It is not traceable to any time close to the early Church except through these references we find in the fathers who uniformly condemn it as heretical.
     
  11. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    People who are dead in their sins need to be quickened so that they can have faith in the true God.

    Your verses don't indicate an understanding of the verses I posted so why did you post them?
     
  12. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    It is mentioned here:

    (New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:29)

    29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

    I am sure there would have been more mentioned about it, however baptism for the dead is a sacred ordinance.
     
  13. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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  14. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    This understanding of the passage is directly addressed -- and openly mocked -- by St. John Chrysostom (d. 407) in his exposition on Corinthians, homily #40, as it is the belief and practice found among the Marcionites (still existing in his own day), who were early Gnostic heretics who rejected the OT entirely and the idea that the God of the OT is the father of our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ. Doesn't sound like a very Mormon belief, does it? Yet that is where the very bizarre understanding and practice that you have advanced here is found in Christian history. St. John's rebuttal is worthy of reading in full, but I will only quote a selection from it due to its length, and here is a link to the entire homily, which is incredibly informative on the appropriate Christian understanding of baptism: that it is baptism into death and resurrection, and hence we are all "baptized for the dead" (i.e., for ourselves, so that we will rise in the resurrection to eternal life). It is most emphatically not about the baptism of dead people, which is both heretical and insane, and was not the belief of anyone in the early Church, but of parasitic heresies. Our father St. John says:

    Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for the dead?

    He takes in hand again another topic, establishing what he said at one time from what God does , and at another from the very things which they practice. And this also is no small plea for the defense of any cause when a man brings forward the gainsayers themselves as witnessing by their own actions what he affirms. What then is that which he means? Or will you that I should first mention how they who are infected with the Marcionite heresy pervert this expression? And I know indeed that I shall excite much laughter; nevertheless, even on this account most of all I will mention it that you may the more completely avoid this disease: viz., when any Catechumen departs among them, having concealed the living man under the couch of the dead, they approach the corpse and talk with him, and ask him if he wishes to receive baptism; then when he makes no answer, he that is concealed underneath says in his stead that of course he should wish to be baptized; and so they baptize him instead of the departed, like men jesting upon the stage. So great power has the devil over the souls of careless sinners. Then being called to account, they allege this expression, saying that even the Apostle has said, "They who are baptized for the dead." Do you see their extreme ridiculousness? Is it meet then to answer these things? I trow not; unless it were necessary to discourse with madmen of what they in their frenzy utter. But that none of the more exceedingly simple folk may be led captive, one must needs submit to answer even these men. As thus, if this was Paul's meaning wherefore did God threaten him that is not baptized? For it is impossible that any should not be baptized henceforth, this being once devised: and besides, the fault no longer lies with the dead, but with the living. But to whom spoke He, "Unless you eat My flesh, and drink My blood, you have no life in yourselves"? (John 6:53) To the living, or to the dead, tell me? And again, "Unless a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (John 3:5) For if this be permitted, and there be no need of the mind of the receiver nor of his assent while he lives, what hinders both Greeks and Jews thus to become believers, other men after their decease doing these things in their stead?

    [....]

    As thus: after the enunciation of those mystical and fearful words, and the awful rules of the doctrines which have come down from heaven, this also we add at the end when we are about to baptize, bidding them say, "I believe in the resurrection of the dead," and upon this faith we are baptized. For after we have confessed this together with the rest, then at last are we let down into the fountain of those sacred streams. This therefore Paul recalling to their minds said, "if there be no resurrection, why are you then baptized for the dead?" i.e., the dead bodies. For in fact with a view to this are you baptized, the resurrection of your dead body, believing that it no longer remains dead. [....] Wherefore also Paul calls baptism a burial, saying, "Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death." (Romans 6:4)​
     
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  15. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    The gospel of Jesus Christ is LOVE, God is LOVE, the commandments are LOVE. We are commanded to LOVE God and one another. You asked
    Which Gospel: Original or Restored?

    All of the gospel is about LOVE. There is no part of the gospel that is not about LOVE. God LOVED us so He sent His Son. God LOVES us so He chastens us. God LOVES those who obey. God LOVES the profitable servant, but the unprofitable servant will have to pay.

    (New Testament | Matthew 25:30)

    30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    (New Testament | 2 Thessalonians 1:5 - 12)

    5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
    6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
    7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

    8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
    9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
    10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
    11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:
    12 That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
     
  16. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    St. John Chrysostom was exiled and as

    Jennifer Barry suggests it may have to do with his connections to Arianism.

    From: John Chrysostom - Wikipedia

    So you are basing your heretical argument on a heretic? Wouldn't it be better to believe what Paul said about people of his generation being baptized for the dead? After all he was telling the Corinthians that there was no reason for the dead to be baptized by proxy if there was no resurrection.
     
  17. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    I don't know or care who Jennifer Barry is (why did you put a hyperlink to someone with nothing behind it? It opens to a page that says "Wikipedia does not have an article with that exact name"), and St. John Chrysostom is by no means a heretic. His exile by the Synod of the Oak had to do with suspicions of him due to his connection to Origenist monks who had already been banished by the then-Patriarch of Alexandria, HH St. Theophilos, and it was an action (his condemnation and exile) that the subsequent Patriarch of Alexandria, HH St. Cyril, condemned in his reunion with the Antiochians (433 AD, so less than 30 years after St. John's departure) and by once again restoring St. John's name to the diptychs of the Alexandrian Church, where it has remained ever since.

    Throwing around 'churchy' words like "heretic" in a careless fashion does no one any good. Please take a little while to research things beyond Wikipedia (which is usually good for a first step/general overview, but not good to draw conclusions from alone) before insulting one of the greatest saints of all Christianity and calling his view heretical due to a universally-repudiated action that had nothing to do in any case with the description he provides of the ancient Marcionite provenance of "baptism for the dead". That act and belief is heresy, not St. John's words nor his person.
     
  18. twin.spin

    twin.spin Trust the LORD and not on your own understanding

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    What one should take note is that what is being stated in 1 Corinthians 15:29 is a "one of" passage since nowhere else practice is this mentioned in Scriptures.

    Though I'm not well versed if this was a pagan Gnostic practice, I do know that "baptism by proxy" that Mormonism teaches would not be endorsed by Paul or the Christian church in view of Acts 2:38 \ Mark 16:16 which speaks of people being baptized for benefit of themselves … not in proxy \ behalf of others.

    Keeping in mind then that purpose of baptism is for the individual ( person who is being baptized), it also be noted then God reveals that through baptism one of the benefits is that we affirm our belief that since Christ rose physically we also would rise (1 Corinthians 15:22,23 and John 14:19), for baptism permits Christians to be united in Christ's resurrection, spiritually and physically perfect.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2019
  19. BigDaddy4

    BigDaddy4 Movin' on...

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    It sure is amusing (and educational!) watching (reading?) the mormons argue Christian church history with people who actually know and understand Christian church history.
     
  20. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    I didn't do the hyperlink, it was on Wikipedia. I guess it was a bad hyperlink. It seems like there was a lot of contention in the church back in the 4th and 5th centuries. How is it possible to know if St. John Chrysostom was a true disciple of Christ?

    "Theophilus, archbishop of Alexandria, and Empress Eudoxia were determined to discredit John. Theophilus feared the growth in importance of the Bishop of Constantinople and took occasion to charge John with fostering heresy."

    From: Saint John Chrysostom
     
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