Which Day of the Week is the Sabbath?

[Normann]

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Exodus 16:23
And he said unto them, This is that which the Lord hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the Lord: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.

This is the first mention of a sabbath for man. It was more than 2,500 years after God rested in Genesis the second chapter.

The words sabbath and seventh don't come from the same word.

A sabbath does not have to be on the seventh day of the calendar. It is the cessation of work that makes it the sabbath, not the day.

Sabbaths have been observed on different days, for different lengths of time.

The 7th day sabbath of Israel were changing sabbaths, being observed on
two different days each year because of an additional sabbath at Pentecost.

Now folks, this is the part of Bible study that the SDA wishes to ignore, because it would prove their doctrine to be false.

There was no such thing as the sabbath always being on Saturday throughout the year, or perpetually.

IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann

 

[Montalban]

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Exodus 16:23
And he said unto them, This is that which the Lord hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the Lord: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.

This is the first mention of a sabbath for man. It was more than 2,500 years after God rested in Genesis the second chapter.

The words sabbath and seventh don't come from the same word.

A sabbath does not have to be on the seventh day of the calendar. It is the cessation of work that makes it the sabbath, not the day.

Sabbaths have been observed on different days, for different lengths of time.

The 7th day sabbath of Israel were changing sabbaths, being observed on
two different days each year because of an additional sabbath at Pentecost.

Now folks, this is the part of Bible study that the SDA wishes to ignore, because it would prove their doctrine to be false.

There was no such thing as the sabbath always being on Saturday throughout the year, or perpetually.

IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann

The Sabbatarians seem to be selective on which Jewish laws they are obligated to.

I thought we were Christian, anyway.

 

[oldsage]

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Exodus 16:23
And he said unto them, This is that which the Lord hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the Lord: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.

This is the first mention of a sabbath for man. It was more than 2,500 years after God rested in Genesis the second chapter.

The words sabbath and seventh don't come from the same word.

No one said that come from the same word, they are associated together in the bible by God when the Commandments are given in Chapt 20 of Exodus.

A sabbath does not have to be on the seventh day of the calendar. It is the cessation of work that makes it the sabbath, not the day.

We never said it was the seventh day of the calendar, but the last day in a cycle of 7 which God started about 4000 years ago.

Sabbaths have been observed on different days, for different lengths of time.

The 7th day sabbath of Israel were changing sabbaths, being observed on
two different days each year because of an additional sabbath at Pentecost.

Now, there is a difference in the weekly Sabbath and the Sabbaths that occur during the Feasts. Read Lev 23 and you will see the differences. You can have one Sabbath after another when it falls near or on a Feast. But that still has nothing to do with the seven day cycle Sabbath, which is the one spoken of in the Ten commandments in Exodus 20. Show from the bible where the weekly Sabbath falls on different days.

Now folks, this is the part of Bible study that the SDA wishes to ignore, because it would prove their doctrine to be false.

Look, my shirt doesn't have SDA on it, I could be Seventh day Baptist or Messianic, or Church of God 7th day, or several other Sabbath-keeping groups in the world today. If you want to make this a Normann against SDA thread you should start another because not all the Sabbatarians here agree with SDA doctrines.

There was no such thing as the sabbath always being on Saturday throughout the year, or perpetually.

You have yet to prove this from the bible, if you believe in the bible, show the proof and don't just make accusations.

Chris

 

[oldsage]

The Sabbatarians seem to be selective on which Jewish laws they are obligated to.

I thought we were Christian, anyway.

Not this one

Chris

 

[Montalban]

Not this one

Chris

Which temple do you pray in? Is your priest of the tribe of Levi?

 

[oldsage]

Which temple do you pray in? Is your priest of the tribe of Levi?

See there isn't any temple, so those law cannot be followed, and the office of the priest isn't there right now cause there isn't any temple, law concerning women, priest, agriculture and such don't appy to me because they aren't addressed to me. The laws that I am able to do, I do. Simple.

Maybe you should go into the Messanic congregation and see what they have to say about this position.

Chris

 

[Montalban]

See there isn't any temple, so those law cannot be followed, and the office of the priest isn't there right now cause there isn't any temple, law concerning women, priest, agriculture and such don't appy to me because they aren't addressed to me. The laws that I am able to do, I do. Simple.

Maybe you should go into the Messanic congregation and see what they have to say about this position.

Chris

Maybe you should, because last time I looked, the temples are still there (they've got Jews in them).

 

[oldsage]

Maybe you should, because last time I looked, the temples are still there (they've got Jews in them).

No, I will have to disagree, there are many synagogues not a temple, the last I looked there was a big Mosque where the Temple is suppose to be. Plus another thing, many things in the Torah has to do when you are in a theocracy, and at the current time, there isn't one set up anywhere, much like what happened during the Babylonian captivity or the occupation of the Greeks and Romans....the hebrews could not keep all the laws that were written down because it was not possible, so we keep that which we can.

Chris

 

[Montalban]

No, I will have to disagree, there are many synagogues not a temple, the last I looked there was a big Mosque where the Temple is suppose to be. Plus another thing, many things in the Torah has to do when you are in a theocracy, and at the current time, there isn't one set up anywhere, much like what happened during the Babylonian captivity or the occupation of the Greeks and Romans....the hebrews could not keep all the laws that were written down because it was not possible, so we keep that which we can.

Chris

Does your priest wear the vestments as stated in the OT?

 

[spirit1st]

Well ,it might be O.k for most to live under the law.Because many are called and few choosen.
The sabbath was part of the law to the jews.and gentiles think they to are under the law?
But When BORN OF GOD!WE ARE NEW CREATURES.No longer of this world.
This alone SHOULD TELL US.WE ARE UNDER A NEW SET OF LAWS.
The LAW of FAITh and the LAW OF LOVE!
Jam 2:8 If ye fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well:
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.


Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
Joh 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
2Co 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

 

[spirit1st]

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
WHAT KIND OF A NEW CREATURE ARE WE?
1Jo 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
THIS IS VERY POWERFUL AND TELLING,BUT FEW WILL ACCEPT THIS TRUTH.But then again?Few are choosen!BUT MANY ARE CALLED!
of course this is our inner man or spirit man [SAME!}


Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Heb 4:11 Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

THIS IS OUR NEW SABBATH .It is too the inner man,born of GOD.I have entered in And We do nothing there ,but are in perfect peace.THE HOLY GHOST lives though us and does everything.JUST LIKE THE SCRIPTURE SAYS!
And we SEE?THE LORD TELLS US TO SEEK TO ENTER IN.If we do not?WE HAVE SINNED!Because we have disobeyed OUR LORD AND MASTER!

 

[tall73]

Tall73 seems to want to go over the same things again and again and thus misses...

The Didache

But every Lord's day . . . gather yourselves together and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one that is at variance with his fellow come together with you until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned (Didache 14 [A.D. 70]).

Ignatius of Antioch

[T]hose who were brought up in the ancient order of things [i.e., Jews] have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's day, on which also our life has sprung up again by him and by his death (Letter to the Magnesians 8 [A.D. 110]).

The Didascalia

The apostles further appointed; On the first day of the week let there be service, and the reading of the holy scriptures, and the oblation [sacrifice of the Mass], because on the first day of the week [Sunday] our Lord rose from the place of the dead, and on the first day of the week he arose upon the world, and on the first day of the week he ascended up to heaven, and on the first day of the week he will appear at last with the angels of heaven (Didascalia 2 [A.D. 225]).

Victorinus

The sixth day [Friday] is called parasceve, that is to say, the preparation of the kingdom. . . . On this day also, on account of the passion of the Lord Jesus Christ, we make either a station to God or a fast. On the seventh day he rested from all his works, and blessed it, and sanctified it. On the former day we are accustomed to fast rigorously, that on the Lord's Day we may go forth to our bread with giving of thanks. Let the parasceve become a rigorous fast, lest we should appear to observe any Sabbath with the Jews . . . which Sabbath he [Christ] in his body abolished (The Creation of the World [A.D. 300]).

Eusebius

They [the early saints of the Old Testament] did not care about circumcision of the body, neither do we [Christians]. They did not care about observing Sabbaths, nor do we. They did not avoid certain kinds of food, neither did they regard the other distinctions which Moses first delivered to their posterity to be observed as symbols; nor do Christians of the present day do such things (Church History 1:4:8 [A.D. 325]).

[T]he day of his [Christ's] light . . . was the day of his resurrection from the dead, which they say, as being the one and only truly holy day and the Lord's day, is better than any number of days as we ordinarily understand them, and better than the days set apart by the Mosaic Law for feasts, new moons, and Sabbaths, which the Apostle [Paul] teaches are the shadow of days and not days in reality (Proof of the Gospel 4:16:186 [A.D. 319]).

Athanasius

The Sabbath was the end of the first creation, the Lord's day was the beginning of the second, in which he renewed and restored the old in the same way as he prescribed that they should formerly observe the Sabbath as a memorial of the end of the first things, so we honor the Lord's day as being the memorial of the new creation (On Sabbath and Circumcision 3 [A.D. 345]).

Cyril of Jerusalem

Fall not away either into the sect of the Samaritans or into Judaism, for Jesus Christ has ransomed you. Stand aloof from all observance of Sabbaths and from calling indifferent meats common or unclean (Catechetical Lectures 4:37 [A.D. 350]).

Council of Laodicea

Christians should not Judaize and should not be idle on the Sabbath, but should work on that day; they should, however, particularly reverence the Lord's Day and, if possible, not work on it, because they were Christians (canon 29 [A.D. 360]).

John Chrysostom

When he said, "You shall not kill" . . . he did not add "because murder is a wicked thing." The reason was that conscience had taught this beforehand, and he speaks thus, as to those who know and understand the point. Wherefore when he speaks to us of another commandment, not known to us by the dictate of conscience, he not only prohibits, but adds the reason. When, for instance, he gave commandment concerning the Sabbath — "On the seventh day you shall do no work"— he subjoined also the reason for this cessation. What was this? "Because on the seventh day God rested from all his works which he had begun to make" [Ex. 20:10]. And again: "Because you were a servant in the land of Egypt" [Deut. 21:18]. For what purpose then, I ask, did he add a reason respecting the Sabbath, but did no such thing in regard to murder? Because this commandment was not one of the leading ones. It was not one of those which were accurately defined of our conscience, but a kind of partial and temporary one, and for this reason it was abolished afterward. But those which are necessary and uphold our life are the following: '"You shall not kill... You shall not commit adultery... You shall not steal." On this account he adds no reason in this case, nor enters into any instruction on the matter, but is content with the bare prohibition (Homilies on the Statues 12:9 [A.D. 387]).

You have put on Christ, you have become a member of the Lord and been enrolled in the heavenly city, and you still grovel in the Law [of Moses]? How is it possible for you to obtain the kingdom? Listen to Paul's words, that the observance of the Law overthrows the gospel, and learn, if you will, how this comes to pass, and tremble, and shun this pitfall. Why do you keep the Sabbath and fast with the Jews? (Homilies on Galatians 2:17 [A.D. 395]).

Apostolic Constitutions

And on the day of our Lord's resurrection, which is the Lord's Day, meet more diligently, sending praise to God that made the universe by Jesus, and sent him to us, and condescended to let him suffer, and raised him from the dead. Otherwise what apology will he make to God who does not assemble on that day . . . in which is performed the reading of the prophets, the preaching of the gospel, the oblation of the sacrifice, the gift of the holy food (Apostolic Constitutions 2:7:60 [A.D. 400]).

cited at
http://staycatholic.com/ecf_sabbath_or_sunday.htm

Two problems

a. I in fact did not go over old material. Your own response shows that you have no answer for the evidence that the Sabbath was kept by the vast majority in the 5th century.

B. I have not forgotten these. What you seem to have forgotten is the original thesis of your camp. The original thesis is that Sabbath was replaced by Sunday from the beginning. Now you can cite that Sunday was observed in honor of the resurrection, and I have already noted I see no sin in that. But replacing the Sabbath, a command of God, is a sin. And all you have shown in no way shows what you contend--that the replacement was an original teaching of the apostles. In fact the evidence shows them keeping both, as I quoted myself. Your problem is that you hold the Sabbath was replaced but have no way to explain it being kept for 400 years after Jesus by most Christians if it was in fact replaced.

 

[tall73]

Tall73 has forgotten that I went over several quotes with him already - but then again he asked me the same questions over and over again

Since you seem to think that anything you said allows for no response you take my follow-ups to be saying the same thing. But in fact I am not repeating myself. I have presented new evidence each time. Now I have repeated my main argument over and over, and will again, because you have not yet challenged it. If Sabbath is kept all throughout this period, and endorsed, etc. then it must not have been replaced immediately. The history shows this clearly.

What does St. Ignatius say?

Sunday is 'the Lord's Day'...
St. Ignatius' Epistle to the Magnesians

Sorry, he never said that. Show me in the Greek where it says that. You again skipped right over all the linguistic evidence. I showed you the greek text, and nowhere is the word day in it. And in the only greek manuscript it clearly says that Lord's life. Nor have you dealt with the context which is talking about the OT prophets. Are you suggesting they were keeping Sunday?

It is for this reason I must repeat myself, you simply ignore any facts which you don't care to see.

...
10:1 Therefore let us not be insensible to His goodness. For if He should imitate us according to our deeds, we are lost. For this cause, seeing that we are become His disciples, let us learn to live as beseemeth Christianity. For whoso is called by another name besides this, is not of God.
10:2 Therefore put away the vile leaven which hath waxed stale and sour, and betake yourselves to the new leaven, which is Jesus Christ. Be ye salted in Him, that none among you grow putrid, seeing that by your savour ye shall be proved.
10:3 It is monstrous to talk of Jesus Christ and to practise Judaism. For Christianity did not believe in Judaism, but Judaism in Christianity, wherein every tongue believed and was gathered together unto God.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/ignatius-magnesians-lightfoot.html

He thus says NOT to partake of the Jewish practices

Indeed, and he defines them in the question of the Sabbath...drinking lukewarm drinks etc.

And of course you conveniently didn't post where he tells them all to keep the Sabbath. Who is forgetting here? My view accouts for both statements. Does yours?

The Epistle of Barnabas, written sometime after the year 80 says...

Barnabas 15:8
Finally He saith to them; Your new moons and your Sabbaths I cannot away with. Ye see what is His meaning ; it is not your present Sabbaths that are acceptable [unto Me], but the Sabbath which I have made, in the which, when I have set all things at rest, I will make the beginning of the eighth day which is the beginning of another world.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/barnabas-lightfoot.html

Indeed, he says that the Sabbath is eschatological, and that the 8th day comes after it...but is literal. I have dealt in depth with not only this argument but his rather ridiculous arguments on other points of Scripture. You never answered by the way whether you think that his interpretation of the levitical laws referring to people who practice oral conception or gender changing is true. Nor did you address his interpretation of the true meaning of circumcision based on the number of people Abraham circumcises.

Why have you, and others in your camp, refused to claim these statements?

But again, however you take his argument, it still does not answer why Sabbath keeping was almost universal if he claims it was replaced.

Justin Martyr's First Apology written sometime between 150-160

CHAPTER LXVII -- WEEKLY WORSHIP OF THE CHRISTIANS.



And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-firstapology.html

A. this text was quoted earlier in favor of the view that Jesus taught this doctrine. But first of all this is at the conclusion of a long section where the teachings of Jesus are summarized. And in that section many verses are given directly from Jesus supporting each teaching. This is what the "these things" are referring to. So let me ask. If Jesus is the basis of the Sunday teaching, where is the statement of Jesus to support it as the other teachings have? I see none.

B. Notice his unbiblical argument here in regard to Sunday. Now while I think in general that Justin is far more rational than Barnabas, the first argument that he gives here makes no sense. He says that they honor it because it was the first day of creation. Where did the Bible ever support that? Nowhere. It seems he is reaching for biblical evidence here.

Justin Martyr's DIALOGUE WITH TRYPHO

Chapter X

"Is there any other matter, my friends, in which we are blamed, than this, that we live not after the law, and are not circumcised in the flesh as your forefathers were, and do not observe sabbaths as you do?

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-dialoguetrypho.html

The problem is that it was only in a few locations where this statement could be made. Most in fact were keeping the Sabbath. None of these statements say anything but what those histories said. That in some places they stopped keeping it.

Tertullian's An Answer to the Jews.

Chapter IV.-Of the Observance of the Sabbath.

It follows, accordingly, that, in so far as the abolition of carnal circumcision and of the old law is demonstrated as having been consummated at its specific times, so also the observance of the Sabbath is demonstrated to have been temporary.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-03/anf03-19.htm#P2021_691723

What is in fact clear is that his explanation makes no sense. He contends that at the destruction of Jericho the people would have violated the Sabbath. Therefore, it is clear that they were not bound by it at that time. Obviously the later accounts of the Bible, and in fact Jesus Himself disagree with this. Since God told them to carry out the actions at Jericho we can safely say that they were not out of God's will at this time.

Since I am accused of repeating I might as well...Any amount of Sunday statements do not erase the fact that most were keeping Sabbath. And all of these are simply affirming the statement of the histories that those in the west abandoned the practice, while most did not. In other words, it was hardly a teaching from Jesus in the beginning.

Let's look again at his own 'sources'

The Apostolic Constitution was not written by the Apostles.

Who said they were? I said they were in the 4th century. As did you. But then again they do say that they were to keep Sabbath–and this in the 4th century.

What does Sozemen say

"The people of Constantinople, and almost everywhere, assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria."

(as quoted by Tall73)

That is what it says. Now if Sunday had really replaced the day as some of these fathers say, then why would the historians say that in fact Rome and Alexandria were the exceptions not the rule? You see you keep forgetting our respective arguments. My argument is that Sunday was kept in honor of the resurrection, but not immediately. And it eventually displaced Sabbath–But again, not immediately. They were kept side by side for years. This is in fact quite clearly demonstrated. So if your argument is that Sunday from the beginning replaced it, it is quiet unfounded. And even if your argument was that it was just overcoming tradition then it hardly makes sense that even after 4 centuries the tradition was not overcome. Clearly not everyone got this memo that Sunday was the new Sabbath.

See also Acts 20:7; 1 Corinthians 16:2; cf. Revelation 1:10

We have looked at them at length. They certainly say nothing of Sunday replacing Sabbath or abandoning the law of God. One of them is speaking of doing your financial business, and one records Paul preaching. The final one references the Lord's day, but makes no reference whatsoever to replacing Sabbath etc or even defines the Lord's day.

Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord...

=> => Fifty [7 * 7 + 1] days after the Passover Sabbath, Pentecost was celebrated.
This would have been on the first day of the week (Sunday)!
http://www.ccs-hk.org/DM/sab-egwh.html

It was in fact a JEWISH feast, and had been for a long time. Jesus was fulfilling the OT feast, just as He did the wavesheaf at His resurrection. So please demonstrate how this replaced Sabbath with Sunday.

So, since you contend that I repeat myself, I will repeat myself again. There is no reason for the majority of Christians to be keeping Sabbath, saying to keep it, and saying it is in fulfillment of the law 300-400 years after Jesus if it was clear to all, and an apostolic teaching, that Jesus replaced the one with the other.

Finally, why do you think a site like "staycatholic.com" doesn't mention the references that tell people to keep Sabbath, or that say most were keeping it? Do you think they might be biased?

They are dodging the issue. The claim is made that tradition and Scripture do not conflict. But the truth is that tradition doesn't even agree with itself on several occassions here. That is up to you to explain. For my part I make no such claim. I think tradition in fact shows that it does conflict, it does show change over time, and it does in fact show the very thing that we have been contending, that this change was gradual, and not given by either the apostles or Jesus.

 

[Montalban]

Since you seem to think that anything you said allows for no response you take my follow-ups to be saying the same thing.

No, I think our little run-in before of you continually asking for evidence that I continually cited is an example of what I am talking about.

And you do so again, hence
<snip>

Again you're unwilling to address the evidence I cited, say, for example that of Ignatius where he clearly differentiates between the new and the old.

I expect you'll just do that again.

Get back to me when you want to address it.

 

[Yusuf Evans]

Which day of the weeks is the Sabbath? Well, all the Lord wants us to do is to set aside a day for reflection and worship, much the same as he stated in Genesis when he rested on the 7th Day. It depends upon what you set aside, as long as you have a day.

 

[spirit1st]

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
EVERY DAY is HIS DAY.
We can go to church any time ,night or day!or every day?
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
Col 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshiping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
Col 2:19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Col 2:21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
Col 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?
Col 2:23 Which things have indeed a show of wisdom in will-worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honor to the satisfying of the flesh.

 

[tall73]

No, I think our little run-in before of you continually asking for evidence that I continually cited is an example of what I am talking about.

And you do so again, hence
<snip>

Again you're unwilling to address the evidence I cited, say, for example that of Ignatius where he clearly differentiates between the new and the old.

I expect you'll just do that again.

Get back to me when you want to address it.

You apparently don't even read my responses then.

A. I in fact did address his differentiation. He stated the things in the Sabbath that they were not to do. And he then endorsed the Sabbath.

B. You did not address any of the linguistic and contextual evidence that directly contradicts your reading of "the Lord's day" in Ignatius.

Moreover, all of the texts you cited are after 100 with the exception of Ignatius (earliest 98 AD, likely more to the end of his life), and the didache. However, you cite the didache at 70 AD, which scholars now doubt. Here is a reference from the site you seem to prefer concerning the fathers that argues for a 2nd century date:

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/richardson/fathers.viii.i.i.html#viii.i.i


Your contention that I ignored your evidence at any point is untrue. Refuting is not ignoring. You still have not explained why tradition conflicts at several points, sometimes saying that Sunday replaced Sabbath (always later references) and at other point saying they kept both, and in the Scriptures saying nothing about a change at all.


Of course this is easily explained by a progressive replacement, that did not originate with the apostles.

 

[Normann]

Some years on the Jewish calendar had 13 months. Each year after 49 days came the feast of Pentecost which would set the weekly Sabbath up by one day. After 3 1/2 years Israel would have had the weekly Sabbath on each one of the week days.

IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann

 

[Montalban]

You apparently don't even read my responses then.

I do, but I have to stop laughing before I respond.

A. I in fact did address his differentiation. He stated the things in the Sabbath that they were not to do. And he then endorsed the Sabbath.

He noted that there's a different "Lord's Day"

B. You did not address any of the linguistic and contextual evidence that directly contradicts your reading of "the Lord's day" in Ignatius.

I used the same site (translation) you did.

Moreover, all of the texts you cited are after 100 with the exception of Ignatius (earliest 98 AD, likely more to the end of his life), and the didache. However, you cite the didache at 70 AD, which scholars now doubt. Here is a reference from the site you seem to prefer concerning the fathers that argues for a 2nd century date:

So you're unsure again whether you wish to cite him as a source

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/richardson/fathers.viii.i.i.html#viii.i.i

That site doesn't mention "Ignatius"

Your contention that I ignored your evidence at any point is untrue. Refuting is not ignoring.

There you go again. I suggested that you keep asking me the same questions is ignoring me. But you just ignored that too!

You still have not explained why tradition conflicts at several points, sometimes saying that Sunday replaced Sabbath (always later references) and at other point saying they kept both, and in the Scriptures saying nothing about a change at all.

You have still yet to decide whether you want to cite Ingatius, or debunk him for being too late

Of course this is easily explained by a progressive replacement, that did not originate with the apostles.

And it's easily explained by not!

 

[Montalban]

A. I in fact did address his differentiation. He stated the things in the Sabbath that they were not to do. And he then endorsed the Sabbath.

See post #917
http://www.christianforums.com/t2317314-which-day-of-the-week-is-the-sabbath.html&page=92

Ignatius says we're not Jews! Keeping in line with...

WHEN THE COUNSEL OF ACTS 15 CONVENED to determine what Gentile Christians must observe, SABBATH KEEPING IS CONSPICUOUSLY ABSENT. Peter exhorts the leadership of the Church not to place the Gentiles under the Law:

Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are." Acts 15:10-11.

The final judgment of the Jerusalem Council contains no reference to Sabbath keeping. Circumcision was discussed and deemed unnecessary (vss. 5-6; 19-20). If Sabbath keeping were to be an essential part of the New Covenant relationship with God it would have been mentioned in the discussion because it would have been an unfamiliar practice to the Gentiles. Sabbath keeping was not even discussed because it is not a requirement for New Covenant believers:

"For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials; that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell." (Acts 15:28-29).

NOTICE that the Holy Spirit told them NOT to lay upon the Gentiles any greater burden than THOSE ESSENTIALS. OBVIOUSLY THE HOLY SPIRIT DID NOT THINK SABBATH KEEPING WAS AN ESSENTIAL THING ANYMORE!
http://www.sdaoutreach.org/sabbath.cfm

By the way Tall73, what kind of vestments does your rabbi wear?