• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Which Day of the Week is the Sabbath?

Status
Not open for further replies.

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,694
6,110
Visit site
✟1,051,409.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
debiwebi said:
You have shown me Levitical Law nothing more

And it does not exist that he said to keep the OLD COVENANT SABBATH EITHER... this you have not shown either so therefore again stalmate and again you cannot once show me where it says that he says it .... He says to keep the Sabbath yes but then rebukes those that keep it and why is that? You cannot show me that either in true fashion.... the sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath and hence you now know why he said this to the pharisees.... The pharisees those priests that upheld the levitical law ..... oops

Yes, why did he rebuke those who kept it? For keeping it? For keeping the law? No, He rebuked them for laying loads on people that they could not bear and not lifting a finger to help. These loads were of their own design. If you want to make an argument about the Sabbath then Jesus is not the place to start. You are better off looking at the apostles. Jesus clearly reformed Sabbath keeping just as he reformed adultery, stating that lust was just as bad, and murder, saying that hate is just as bad, etc. Jesus taught the spirit of the law which goes beyond the letter. He restored the law to the heart where it belonged.


Many are making much of the old covenant/new covenant concept. But they don't really talk about what they think those are.

A covenant is simply an agreement on both sides which is binding. The first covenant was given at Sinai.

Here are the promises on both sides:



EX 19:3 Then Moses went up to God, and the LORD called to him from the mountain and said, "This is what you are to say to the house of Jacob and what you are to tell the people of Israel: 4 `You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles' wings and brought you to myself. 5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites."

EX 19:7 So Moses went back and summoned the elders of the people and set before them all the words the LORD had commanded him to speak. 8 The people all responded together, "We will do everything the LORD has said." So Moses brought their answer back to the LORD.



The covenant was that the people agreed to do all the Lord commanded, and He agreed to bless them, and make of them a holy nation.

The problem with the first people was not the requirements of God. The problem was with the people. They didn't keep their promises. This is affirmed by Hebrews:

Hebrews8:6 The ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.

HEB 8:7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people


The covenant requirements of the moral law were not the problem. In fact, Paul says that the law was holy and good. He said it was spiritual, but he was unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. The problem is always with our sin, our broken promises, not with God. So God gave a new covenant:

HEB 8:9 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.

HEB 8:10 This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.

HEB 8:11 No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, `Know the Lord,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.

HEB 8:12 For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."

The new covenant still has that same old law! But now it is not external tablets in stone, but written in the heart. It is not the legal written letter, but the law of love lived out in the heart, willingly.

Does this do away with grace? Not at all. Because Paul is quite clear that we are saved by grace, that we obey by that same grace of God's Spirit living in us. In fact he says it is we who keep the law fully, not according to the written code but according to the Spirit.

Much has also been said about the Sabbath not being a commandment before. This is true. But then neither were the other commandments. We see no record of God commanding not to kill, etc. But Cain still knew it was wrong to kill his brother. Jacob knew it was wrong to steal his brother's blessing, etc. The point is that the law was first in the heart. As people fell further from God He spelled out the baseline, but the spirit of the law has always gone beyond that. Jesus came to restore the spirit of the law, and to re-internalize it in the heart. If we live according to the Spirit then we naturally do what He requires.
 
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,694
6,110
Visit site
✟1,051,409.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
debiwebi said:
There is no hell right now then you must be reading a different Bible than I am .....

Scripture

Matt. 3:12; Luke 3:17 - John the Baptist said the Lord will burn the chaff with unquenchable fire. This unquenchable fire is the state of eternal separation from God, which the Church has called "hell" for 2,000 years. Some Protestant communities no longer acknowledge the reality of hell.



Matt. 25:41 - Jesus says, "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

Matt. 25:46 - Jesus says, "they will go away into eternal punishment" which is in reference to this eternal fire.

Mark 9:47-48 - Jesus refers to hell as where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched. It lasts forever.

2 Thess. 1:6-9 - the angels will come with flaming fire and the disobedient will suffer punishment of eternal destruction. It is important to note that "destruction" does not mean "annihilation," as some Protestant denominations teach. It means eternal exclusion from the presence of God.

Jude 6-7 - the rebelling angels, and Sodom and Gomorrah, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Rev. 14:11 - the worshipers of the beast suffer and the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever.

Rev. 20:10 - they're tormented in the lake of fire and brimstone day and night forever and ever.

Isaiah 33:14 - "Who of us can dwell in the everlasting fire?" This is a reference to hell which is forever.

Isaiah 66:24 - their worm shall not die and their fire shall not be quenched. We cannot fathom the pain of this eternal separation from God. Jer. 15:14 - in my anger a fire is kindled which shall burn forever. Hell is the proper compliment to the eternal bliss of heaven.

Mat 25:41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, which was prepared for the devil and his angels.

Mat 25:42 For I was hungry and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty and you gave me not to drink.

Mat 25:43 I was a stranger and you took me not in: naked and you covered me not: sick and in prison and you did not visit me.

Mat 25:44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and did not minister to thee?

Mat 25:45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen: I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead that were in it: and death and hell gave up their dead that were in them. And they were judged, every one according to their works.

It is interesting to note that Satan has already been judged and cast into the lake of fire in the prior Scripture to this so therefore this is not talking about Satan or his angels but those that are actually in Hell now ....

Rev 20:9 And there cane down fire from God out of heaven and devoured them: and the devil, who seduced them, was cast into the pool of fire and brimstone, where both the beast

Rev 20:10 And the false prophet shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

So therefore verse 13 is talking about those that are already in Hell and it most certainly does exist NOW! Otherwise there would be no need for Him to pull them from there to judge them would there .... As I told you Revlation is indeed an interesting book and must be looked at with the utmost of care to interpretted correctly.

With the exception of the verse talking about Sodom etc. these were all verses speaking of the end time judgement. Which was precisely Palehorses' point. He didn't say there was no hell. He said there was no hell YET. As to the Sodom text, they did serve as an example. How? Because they were destroyed. Not in hell but in fire from heaven, for all to see.


Moreover, if hell is where all the wicked go then why are some in the sea?
 
Upvote 0
T

TrustAndObey

Guest
2 John 1:6 - And this is love, that we walkafter his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walkin it.

Revelation 14:12 - Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 22:14
- Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Jesus kept the Sabbath commandment. In fact, He fought vehemently against the Pharisees for trying to force their manmade traditions on God's holy day.

Why would Christ go through all this trouble of fighting the Pharisees if He knew that the Sabbath commandment would be the ONLY one that would be abolished?

Jesus made future prophecies about the Sabbath day.

We're told to walk as He walked....well, what day did He keep holy? What day did He rebuke the Pharisees for trying to "lord" their own rules on? What day did He make future predictions about?

Luke 6:46 - And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Matthew 5:19 - Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

We know the Sabbath was not nailed to the cross. We know His Own mother kept the Sabbath commandment after He was nailed to the cross. We know the disciples kept the Sabbath after He was nailed to the cross. We know that ALL flesh shall come before God on the Sabbath to worship Him on the new earth.

There is no commandment in the Bible to keep Sunday holy or that it is the "new Sabbath". When we're told to do something in the Bible, it isn't just implied....it is very clear.

The argument keeps coming up that Sabbath-keepers are legalistic and putting themselves under the law. Come on, did Jesus teach legalism when He told us to keep the commandments of God?

Matthew 15:9 - But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
 
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,694
6,110
Visit site
✟1,051,409.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Hebrews 4 Study

To get to the meaning I have made a review of the general content of each chapter so as to outline the themes. The overall theme is simply that Jesus is superior to their previous understanding in every way. They should not fall away from the faith entrusted to them. They are warned not to return to Judaism, or fall away due to persecution, but to cling to Jesus. Jesus touches on the key figures in the Jewish mind, Moses, Abraham, angels, Aaron, etc. and Jesus is superior to them all. To fall away from Him would be worse than to fall away from the first covenant.

The meaning of chapter 4 should be in line with this overall theme.

A. The Letter Summarized

Chapter 1:
Jesus is superior to angels. They are ministering spirits, He is the Son.

Chapter 2:
A warning against falling away from the message they had heard

Jesus made like unto his bretehren. He is able to help them when tempted (to fall away)

Chapter 3:
Jesus was better than Moses. Moses was faithful in all of God's house. But Jesus was the Son, to whom all the house belongs. We are the house.

Another warning against falling away. If today you hear his voice do not harden your hearts. Their possible rebellion against God's will is compared with the people in the exodus, who at first left Egypt but were later punished for unbelief.

They are to encourage each other daily to avoid hardening by sin.

Chapter 4: - to be examined further below

Chapter 5:
A priest must be called

Jesus a High priest in the order of Melchizedek, the source of eternal salvation for all who believe

The Hebrew believers are not able to comprehend, because they are still spiritual infants, though they ought by now to be teachers. They have not spiritually matured. They need basics rather than the teaching about righteousness.

Chapter 6:
A call to not fall away. The strongest yet. It will be impossible for those enlightened ones who have drunk of the Spirit, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance. They will have crucified Jesus again by denying Him publicly.

An illustration is given of a worthless plot of land that takes in rain but never produces. This is a picture of the recipients, who have received blessings from God but have not grown, and are in danger of falling away. But better things are hoped for in their case. They should continue to the end.


Abraham was patient and received what was promised God swore by Himself with an oath. They too have assurance from God.

Chapter 7:
Return to the High priest theme. Melchizedek received tithe from Abraham, had no geneology (was without beginning and end), was called the king of righteousness, and the king of peace and remains a priest forever. He did not descend from Levi. Levi figuratively paid the tithe through Abraham. He was greater than Abraham as the lesser is blessed by the greater.

The levitical preisthood did not bring perfection. Jesus was not of the line of Aaron but of the line of Melchizedek. He was both King and Priest. The Lord made Him a priest forever, not on the basis of lineage, but His indestructible life. He does not offer sacrifices over and over for His own sin and others, but one sacrifice for all time, Himself.

Chapter 8:
Jesus is the High Priest of the true tabernacle in heaven, of which the earthly was a copy.

Jesus' ministry is superior to that of the other priesthood, and his covenant is better.

The old covenant was based on bad promises because the people did not keep them. God therefore made a new covenant. The law was written on the heart and mind, and God forgave their sins, and made them His people. It was not dependent on their promises.

Chapter 9:
A review of the worship in the earthly temple, including a brief layout of the grounds. Particularly the Day of Atonement service is treated. Only the high priest went into the most holy place, once a year. Jesus went through the real tabernacle as high priest. He cleanses us with better sacrifices than cleansed the earthly temple.

Jesus is in charge of a better covenant. Just as blood was necessary for a will, Jesus' death and blood initiated the new covenant.

Jesus died once to take away sin and will return again not as a sacrifice but to bring salvation.

Chapter 10:
Sacrifices are not the reality, they are an annual reminder of sin. Jesus' once for all sacrifice provided salvation and the new covenant.

A call to persevere in light of our great High Priest and the salvation He brought. They are not to forsake meeting together.

Those who continually sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth have no sacrifice for sin left.

He calls to mind the early days of the faith of the recipients when they were persecuted, lost possessions etc. They should not shrink back and be destroyed, but endure and receive what is promised.

Chapter 11:
Heros of the faith are outlined, all of which endured by faith. They did not receive what was promised, but now it is revealed in their time.

Chapter 12:
We are to follow Jesus who ran the race before us, and endured persecution.

Hardships are discipline from the Lord of His sons.

Instruction on holy living.

They are not come to the mountain of fire, trembling in fear, but to Mount Zion, the new Jerusalem, the city of God, to joyful assembly. They should not refuse God, as those who refused on earth did not escape.

Chapter 13:
Closing reminders and calls to obey leaders, holy living, reminders of Jesus' sacrifice etc.

B. The context of chapter 4.

Chapter 3 begins the thought that is continued in chapter 4. So a closer look is warranted.

HEB 3:1 Therefore, holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, the apostle and high priest whom we confess. 2 He was faithful to the one who appointed him, just as Moses was faithful in all God's house. 3 Jesus has been found worthy of greater honor than Moses, just as the builder of a house has greater honor than the house itself. 4 For every house is built by someone, but God is the builder of everything.

As Moses was seen as the law giver and friend of God the author wanted to make plain that Jesus is superior to him as well. Moses was a servant of God, Jesus is the Son, over all the house.

5 Moses was faithful as a servant in all God's house, testifying to what would be said in the future. 6 But Christ is faithful as a son over God's house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast.

HEB 3:7 So, as the Holy Spirit says:

"Today, if you hear his voice,

HEB 3:8 do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the desert,

HEB 3:9 where your fathers tested and tried me
and for forty years saw what I did.

HEB 3:10 That is why I was angry with that generation,
and I said, `Their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways.'

HEB 3:11 So I declared on oath in my anger,
`They shall never enter my rest.' "

HEB 3:12 See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.

Here a scene is reviewed from the experience of Moses, through the vehicle of Psalm 95. The exodus experience is in view when the tribes failed to go up and take the promised land. The whole generation died in the wilderness, even though they had left originally in faith. In the same way the ones who were now in danger of falling away had taken their stand for Jesus but now were in danger of falling away.


15 As has just been said:

"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion."

HEB 3:16 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? 18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

It is those who disobey who are in view. Again, an encouragement to the recipients not to emulate them.

C. Chapter 4
HEB 4:1 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2 For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith. 3 Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,

"So I declared on oath in my anger,
`They shall never enter my rest.' "

The promise still stands today to enter God's rest. In context, this would be belief and the reward it brings. They are to enter by faith, staying firm to the end, which is where the earlier fell short.

And yet his work has been finished since the creation of the world. 4 For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: "And on the seventh day God rested from all his work." 5 And again in the passage above he says, "They shall never enter my rest."

God is seen as resting from the beginning of creation. He waits for people to enter that rest. The issue here is simply that God is resting, and waits for others. The view is not that God rests only one day a week, but has been in continuous rest since that time.

HEB 4:6 It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience. 7 Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before:

"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts."

HEB 4:8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.

Joshua led the people to the promised land. But the psalm still said there was a rest to enter. So therefore the rest was not fulfilled just by entering the promised land. It is the promise of salvation. Salvation is ultimately entering into God's rest which He has been in since creation. It is ceasing from our own works, and living by faith–the opposite of what those who doubted and died did.

The invitation is open to them today. It is the day of decision. But if they fall back they will suffer the same fate as those who fell in the wilderness.

HEB 4:12 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

Those who are in danger of falling away should remember the example of those who fell in the desert. They cannot hide from God.

HEB 4:14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet was without sin. 16 Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

Jesus is able to help, being tempted as we are. They need not fall away.

D. Sabbath implications.

This text is neither a support for weekly Sabbath observance, or a text which changes it. It is a call to not fall away as did the people in Moses' time. Their mistake was to not act in faith. It is the purpose of the letter to encourage the Hebrew Christians not to do the same, but to endure in faith.

The Sabbath rest mentioned is not the weekly Sabbath experience, but the lasting rest that God entered into and has remained in since. (This is clearly figurative as God is said to be at work every day by Jesus).

The recipients have the opportunity to enter the rest of salvation in Jesus through faith. But if they turn back they will be like those who fell in the desert.

The term Sabbatismos, while at other times referring to the weekly Sabbath is here simply referring to the rest which that Sabbath points to. The Sabbath is a foretaste of that permanent rest that God is calling us to.
 
Upvote 0

Montalban

Well-Known Member
Jan 20, 2004
35,424
1,509
58
Sydney, NSW
✟42,787.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
tall73 said:
D. Sabbath implications.

This text is neither a support for weekly Sabbath observance, or a text which changes it. It is a call to not fall away as did the people in Moses' time. Their mistake was to not act in faith. It is the purpose of the letter to encourage the Hebrew Christians not to do the same, but to endure in faith.

The Sabbath rest mentioned is not the weekly Sabbath experience, but the lasting rest that God entered into and has remained in since. (This is clearly figurative as God is said to be at work every day by Jesus).

The recipients have the opportunity to enter the rest of salvation in Jesus through faith. But if they turn back they will be like those who fell in the desert.

The term Sabbatismos, while at other times referring to the weekly Sabbath is here simply referring to the rest which that Sabbath points to. The Sabbath is a foretaste of that permanent rest that God is calling us to.
Part of the trick here is by getting people to agree to the false construct that one can only argue from the Bible... as if the Bible authenticated itself.
 
Upvote 0

Debi1967

Proudly in love with Rushingwind62
Site Supporter
Dec 2, 2003
20,540
1,129
58
Green Valley, Illinios
Visit site
✟94,055.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Now it is odd that you reference a heretic as your source.
The work was written before he became a Montanist and therefore the Church does use his earlier works and recognizes them as valid....Just because later on in life the man changed his thought does not mean that all of his writings are then tainted and therefore we should not gleen what we can from the writings that are not heretical in nature.... This is the same with the earliier teachings of Luther before the reformation and before he officially became a herestic within the Church we still look to them and we still accept them as writings that are acceptable teachings to go to.

Tertullian did not embrace montanist thinking until several years after this .... therefore your argument is moot........
 
Upvote 0

Debi1967

Proudly in love with Rushingwind62
Site Supporter
Dec 2, 2003
20,540
1,129
58
Green Valley, Illinios
Visit site
✟94,055.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Abraham and David were saved by grace (Romans 4). Salvation has always been by grace.
We are Saved by Grace but salvation is another matter altogether as this is the coperative interlacing of Faith and Works as it is said Faith without Works is Dead .....

But lest we boast our works are always for the Glroy of God and not ourselves and there is not way to earn our way into Heaven.... This is truly a gift always will be and always shall be ..... but the belief of some that that works just automatically come upon belief in God is an illusion.... because we are sinners so therefore it is in us to want to sin, and it is therefore a constant fight to work against that to do the work of the Lord in order to glorify him, this does nto always come naturally....
 
Upvote 0

oldsage

Veteran
Nov 4, 2005
1,307
70
56
Pinellas Park, FL
✟1,833.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Montalban said:
The Orthodox Church
you and the Romans differ


Montalban said:
Jesus appointed 12 Disciples. Although 1 failed, the others did not (and in fact they appointed another to take his place; as they'd be empowered to do so). They continued to do this in all bishoprics down to our own age.

Apostolic Succession is one of the ways; because there's an unbroken chain through my bishop back to the Apostles.

Can you show in the bible either with example or precept the idea of Apostolic Succession? and is the Pope equal to the Bishops of the Eastern Church? How do we check to see if a Bishop is in the faith or is teaching the truth? Where is the standard that we can see to insure people are not leading others astray, either on purpose or ignorantly?

Chris

In other words, Jesus founded the church; AND this is the church that gave you and I the Bible.[/QUOTE]
 
Upvote 0

oldsage

Veteran
Nov 4, 2005
1,307
70
56
Pinellas Park, FL
✟1,833.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
TrustAndObey said:
Revelation 22:14 - Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
I just wanted to add not all translations agree here, most translations have:

NAB Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they who wash their robes so as to have the right to the tree of life and enter the city (1 )through its gates.


but there are other supporting verses for your case, this doesn't derail it.

Chris
 
Upvote 0
T

TrustAndObey

Guest
oldsage said:
I just wanted to add not all translations agree here, most translations have:

NAB Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they who wash their robes so as to have the right to the tree of life and enter the city (1 )through its gates.


but there are other supporting verses for your case, this doesn't derail it.

Chris

You're the Greek go-to guy Chris, what do you think it says?
 
Upvote 0
T

TrustAndObey

Guest
oldsage said:
personally I think the robe washing is correct, it has better support and makes better since of salvation

The exact same Greek words are used in other verses that are translated to "commandments".

So all I have to do is keep up my laundry and I'm good to go? (You know I'm kidding). :)

Tall73 said:
The term Sabbatismos, while at other times referring to the weekly Sabbath is here simply referring to the rest which that Sabbath points to. The Sabbath is a foretaste of that permanent rest that God is calling us to.

I asked this in another forum, but could you please show another instance of sabbatismos being used in the Bible?

You refer to "other" times it means something other than this instance in Hebrews 4. What "other" times are you referring to?
 
Upvote 0

oldsage

Veteran
Nov 4, 2005
1,307
70
56
Pinellas Park, FL
✟1,833.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
TrustAndObey said:
The exact same Greek words are used in other verses that are translated to "commandments".

So all I have to do is keep up my laundry and I'm good to go? (You know I'm kidding). :)
they are different greek words ;)
 
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,694
6,110
Visit site
✟1,051,409.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
debiwebi said:
The work was written before he became a Montanist and therefore the Church does use his earlier works and recognizes them as valid....Just because later on in life the man changed his thought does not mean that all of his writings are then tainted and therefore we should not gleen what we can from the writings that are not heretical in nature.... This is the same with the earliier teachings of Luther before the reformation and before he officially became a herestic within the Church we still look to them and we still accept them as writings that are acceptable teachings to go to.

Tertullian did not embrace montanist thinking until several years after this .... therefore your argument is moot........

It is not moot at all. You pick and choose in your own tradition. Just as you picked Ignatius' comment about Sunday, but ignored that he still kept the Sabbath. And you pick the comments of Tertulian when he is considered orthodox, but dismiss him...though he is still an important figure for understanding his time, after he turns to a different view of the Trinity.

The tradition shows a progression here, just as it did with papal succession. The records don't even agree who the early popes were, in what order they came, etc. And even Catholic sources show that they were a list of bishops or elders, not called popes until a later time.

These teachings were not handed down, they were pulled out by later generations. Generations who were selective, and worked according to their goals.
 
Upvote 0
T

TrustAndObey

Guest
oldsage said:
they are different greek words ;)

I don't have Greek font loaded on my computer or I'd type out what the original Greek is. I went to www.blueletterbible.com and went into the original language, and clicked on all instances that those words were used. They were always translated to commandments (the keeping of them).
 
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,694
6,110
Visit site
✟1,051,409.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
TrustAndObey said:
I asked this in another forum, but could you please show another instance of sabbatismos being used in the Bible?

You refer to "other" times it means something other than this instance in Hebrews 4. What "other" times are you referring to?

I am referring to extra-biblical information. As you know, it occurs once in the Bible. But in any case, the word is determined by context, not by simply a definition or even contemporary use. There is nothing in the context to suggest that the rest they are entering into is the weekly Sabbath. There is much to suggest it is the rest of faith from works, salvation.
 
Upvote 0
T

TrustAndObey

Guest
tall73 said:
I am referring to extra-biblical information. As you know, it occurs once in the Bible. But in any case, the word is determined by context, not by simply a definition or even contemporary use. There is nothing in the context to suggest that the rest they are entering into is the weekly Sabbath. There is much to suggest it is the rest of faith from works, salvation.
All the extra-biblical information I have seen personally clearly states that sabbatismos is the seventh day Sabbath rest.

Maybe we should compare notes?
 
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,694
6,110
Visit site
✟1,051,409.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Montalban said:
Part of the trick here is by getting people to agree to the false construct that one can only argue from the Bible... as if the Bible authenticated itself.

Since you quoted my last segment of my Hebrews 4 study in making this comment I will ask the following:

A. Have you presented any extra biblical material that I should be considering in my analysis of Hebrews 4? If so I must have missed it.

B. Did I make the argument in this section that we should only consider the Bible? In fact, my argument has been to show that tradition too shows a progression of ideas about the Sabbath.

C. I have made the claim in another post that the Bible should test later writings. And this is quite true. What is established as from God should test that which is not established, and which comes after.

D. Since it was your own church that made the scriptural canon why do you argue against it as though it were a bad thing? Do you disagree with the church in elevating the Scriptures as foundational documents, written by inspiration of God?
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.