Which Day of the Week is the Sabbath? (2)

[woobadooba]

From one to another gives us two Sabbaths only; one before, one after. No continuation past that.

You are making a straw man argument here. If I tell you that I am going to celebrate my birthday from one year to another year, does that mean I have two birth dates?

Hence, the saying: "from one Sabbath to another", is not speaking of two sabbaths, but of one that will continue on perpetually.

Romans 4 doesn't say "Sabbath", but there is no other Biblical concept of esteeming one day above another.

If you did your homework you would know that Paul is dealing with the issue of asceticism in this passage. You see, there were those who had made up their own holy days, and they were trying to impose those days on others, just as they were also trying to coerce others to become vegetarians.

Thus Rom. 14 is not referring to the Sabbath, but to holy days that were established by men, not by God! And that is why Paul said it made no difference.

It was an issue of asceticism, not the 7th day Sabbath Vs. Sunday worship

You see, this is why it is important to understand the dynamics of exegesis. You might find the subject to be boring, but without an understanding of these principles, you will not grasp the meaning of most of what Paul had said.

The key is context.

 

[rstrats]

seebs,

re: "Romans 14 doesn't say "Sabbath", but there is no other Biblical concept of esteeming one day above another."

Esteeming one day above another for what purpose? As woobadooba said, Paul is dealing with the issue of asceticism in this passage. The subject of the chapter from start to finish has to do with what people eat. Paul is indeed writing about asceticism. Some in the church at Rome believed Christians should eat only vegetables. Paul calls these people "weak in the faith" (verses 1-2). The stronger in faith know they could also eat meat. Nothing in God’s law prescribes vegetarianism. The stronger in faith knew they were free from non-biblical asceticism. A part of the controversy that had sprung up between the weak and the strong Christians was the esteeming of days. In Rome some people had the pagan idea that on certain days certain foods should or should not be eaten. In this whole chapter Paul was just showing that others should not be offended, particularly weak members who have not yet learned the truth about the proper Christian diet and that they should not be judged by the stronger in the faith. This passage has nothing to do with the Sabbath.

 

[rstrats]

Normann,

re: "I hope I have helped."

With all due respect, I’m afraid you haven’t. I don’t see how the counting of Pentecost changes the seven day cycle continuity of the weekly Sabbath.

 

[Normann]

How silly is it to proclaim a gospel from a man made calendar?

I can and have proven that the commandment to keep the Sabbath is not in the N.T.

No one can prove from from scripture only that Saturday is the Sabbath or even the 7th day.

Why not settle the facts first?

Answer: Because they don't have the goods!

IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann

 

[BigNorsk]

There is one thing wrong with this sort of theology and it is this.

There is no Bible text to supoort for what you believe.

Jesus said that He did not come to abolish the law.

That means that He did not come to do away with the law.

We are asking for a Biblical text that says the Sabbath has been changed from the 7th day to the 1st day of the week.

If such a text is there we need to know where it is.

If it is not there then we all need to change if necessary to keep the Biblical Sabbath.


That is the 7th day of the week, Saturday.

The Sabbath is not changed to another day of the week, the Sabbath day of the law is fulfilled in the true Sabbath rest which Christians receive when they die to the law by receive Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. To change it and say that the Sabbath rest can now be found on Sunday and not on Saturday would again be no rest all all, just a substitution of one day for another.

Marv

 

[oldsage]

The Sabbath is not changed to another day of the week, the Sabbath day of the law is fulfilled in the true Sabbath rest which Christians receive when they die to the law by receive Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. To change it and say that the Sabbath rest can now be found on Sunday and not on Saturday would again be no rest all all, just a substitution of one day for another.

Marv

umm, when does 'fulfilling' mean to not to do anymore?

Chris

 

[BigNorsk]

BigNorsk’

re: " The real Sabbath is the rest we receive from our works..."

What works did you used to do that you no longer do?

Before putting my faith in Jesus, I tried to be good, I labored in order to be righteous. I was not capable of being so, I am a sinner. When I came to believe in Jesus, I died with him, died to the law that showed how unworthy I was. I came to rely on the faithfulness of Jesus on his righteousness.

Now the arguement is to turn from his faithfulness and righteousness, and turn back to the futility that was before. Now we are being told that in order to perfect what is already perfect we are to turn back to that which proved us imperfect and substitute our imperfection for Christ's perfection.

That's the problem with the teaching that the true Sabbath is a day of the week. It isn't, the seventh day Sabbath pointed the way to the true Sabbath. We shouldn't turn away and reject the true Sabbath to go back to the shadow. To do so is to reject that salvation is a free gift of God's grace and instead make it that it is something that we earn by obeying the law.

This is exactly what Paul warned us about.
Galatians 3:1-5 NET
(1) You foolish Galatians! Who has cast a spell on you? Before your eyes Jesus Christ was vividly portrayed as crucified!
(2) The only thing I want to learn from you is this: Did you receive the Spirit by doing the works of the law or by believing what you heard?
(3) Are you so foolish? Although you began with the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by human effort?
(4) Have you suffered so many things for nothing? — if indeed it was for nothing.
(5) Does God then give you the Spirit and work miracles among you by your doing the works of the law or by your believing what you heard?

Marv

 

[woobadooba]

Before putting my faith in Jesus, I tried to be good, I labored in order to be righteous. I was not capable of being so, I am a sinner. When I came to believe in Jesus, I died with him, died to the law that showed how unworthy I was. I came to rely on the faithfulness of Jesus on his righteousness.

Now the arguement is to turn from his faithfulness and righteousness, and turn back to the futility that was before. Now we are being told that in order to perfect what is already perfect we are to turn back to that which proved us imperfect and substitute our imperfection for Christ's perfection.

That's the problem with the teaching that the true Sabbath is a day of the week. It isn't, the seventh day Sabbath pointed the way to the true Sabbath. We shouldn't turn away and reject the true Sabbath to go back to the shadow. To do so is to reject that salvation is a free gift of God's grace and instead make it that it is something that we earn by obeying the law.

This is exactly what Paul warned us about.
Galatians 3:1-5 NET
(1) You foolish Galatians! Who has cast a spell on you? Before your eyes Jesus Christ was vividly portrayed as crucified!
(2) The only thing I want to learn from you is this: Did you receive the Spirit by doing the works of the law or by believing what you heard?
(3) Are you so foolish? Although you began with the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by human effort?
(4) Have you suffered so many things for nothing? — if indeed it was for nothing.
(5) Does God then give you the Spirit and work miracles among you by your doing the works of the law or by your believing what you heard?

Marv

I agree with some of this post. But the part about the 4th commandment being a shadow/type of the antitype is not biblical.

It would help to refer to the purpose of shadows and types in the law, that they were established as a result of sin, Gal. 3:19.

The 7th day Sabbath however, was established at creation, before sin entered into the world, Gen. 2:1-3; Ex. 20:10-11.

Thus the 7th day sabbath is a memorial of creation, not a shadow/type of something to come.

Hence, it can never be done away with, or changed by rule of the principle of shadows and types, because it was not established for this purpose.

In fact, even Isaiah implied that it is perpetually binding, in 66:23. And notice how in his phraseology, "from one Sabbath to another", he identified it as a particular time, not as a day without end.

 

[oldsage]

Before putting my faith in Jesus, I tried to be good, I labored in order to be righteous. I was not capable of being so, I am a sinner. When I came to believe in Jesus, I died with him, died to the law that showed how unworthy I was. I came to rely on the faithfulness of Jesus on his righteousness.

Now the arguement is to turn from his faithfulness and righteousness, and turn back to the futility that was before. Now we are being told that in order to perfect what is already perfect we are to turn back to that which proved us imperfect and substitute our imperfection for Christ's perfection.

That's the problem with the teaching that the true Sabbath is a day of the week. It isn't, the seventh day Sabbath pointed the way to the true Sabbath. We shouldn't turn away and reject the true Sabbath to go back to the shadow. To do so is to reject that salvation is a free gift of God's grace and instead make it that it is something that we earn by obeying the law.

This is exactly what Paul warned us about.
Galatians 3:1-5 NET
(1) You foolish Galatians! Who has cast a spell on you? Before your eyes Jesus Christ was vividly portrayed as crucified!
(2) The only thing I want to learn from you is this: Did you receive the Spirit by doing the works of the law or by believing what you heard?
(3) Are you so foolish? Although you began with the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by human effort?
(4) Have you suffered so many things for nothing? — if indeed it was for nothing.
(5) Does God then give you the Spirit and work miracles among you by your doing the works of the law or by your believing what you heard?

Marv

Ok, well, this makes no sense since you are talking about apples and oranges. for one, before I was a Christian I stole and lied and such, after I became I became a Christian I can still steal and lie? because of Jesus' faithfullness and righteousness? can I lie because Jesus is the truth? So, I don't have to worry about doing that? which is what you are saying that you can break the Sabbath because Jesus is the Sabbath.

Becoming Christian doesn't mean you toss out the standard. All it means is you have been lifted above the standard by His hand not receiving the condemnation which you deserve. The Sabbath points to the rest we will have after the resurrection, the rest we have in Jesus is not a rest of no longer doing what is right, but a rest from our labor of doing the work on our own, were Jesus will now take the yoke and plow with us.
Grace is not something that is passive:

ROMANS 1:5 “We RECEIVED GRACE and apostleship FOR OBEDIENCE to the faith ...”

TITUS 2:11-14 “For the GRACE of God that brings salvation to all men TEACHES US that denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present age, looking for ... Jesus, who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.


Our outlook on the law of God is one of delight:

HEBREWS 8:10 “ I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts”

(Ezekiel 36:27,28, Jeremiah 3:33, Hebrews 10:16).

PSALM 40:8 “I delight to do thy will... yea, they law is written within my heart.”

ROMANS 7:22 “For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.”

PSALM 119:97 “Oh how I love thy Law!”

PSALM 119:165 “Great peace have they which love thy law.”

We need to get out of the negativity we have toward God's law. Is the thing that convicts us of sin, sin? Or is the Law of God holy and just and good? Jesus didn't come to do away with the Law just as He stated at the beginning of His ministry, but came to declare us righteous for those that accept His offer of salvation and to give us strength to overcome sin.

Chris

 

[oldsage]

I agree with some of this post. But the part about the 4th commandment being a shadow/type of the antitype is not biblical.

It would help to refer to the purpose of shadows and types in the law, that they were established as a result of sin, Gal. 3:19.

The 7th day Sabbath however, was established at creation, before sin entered into the world, Gen. 2:1-3; Ex. 20:10-11.

Thus the 7th day sabbath is a memorial of creation, not a shadow/type of something to come.

Hence, it can never be done away with, or changed by rule of the principle of shadows and types, because it was not established for this purpose.

In fact, even Isaiah implied that it is perpetually binding, in 66:23. And notice how in his phraseology, "from one Sabbath to another", he identified it as a particular time, not as a day without end.

I will have to disagree with some of this post, whereas I believe in the enternality of the Sabbath I believe it is also a type. God before creation already had His plan in place for when the human race would fall, the Sabbath is a prefiguring of the eternal rest we will have after the resurrection. Because something is a refection of something else doesn't mean the type is abolished ever. The Sabbath doesn't have just one purpose, it is physical for our rest we need now, it is a memorial of the creative act of God and it is eschatological in the rest we will have in the world to come.

Chris

 

[woobadooba]

I will have to disagree with some of this post, whereas I believe in the enternality of the Sabbath I believe it is also a type. God before creation already had His plan in place for when the human race would fall, the Sabbath is a prefiguring of the eternal rest we will have after the resurrection. Because something is a refection of something else doesn't mean the type is abolished ever. The Sabbath doesn't have just one purpose, it is physical for our rest we need now, it is a memorial of the creative act of God and it is eschatological in the rest we will have in the world to come.

Chris

Actually, I agree that there will be an eschatological rest for God's people. Hebrews 4 does indeed address this issue thus. However, I'm not so sure that the 7th day Sabbath was ever meant to be a type of that rest, especially since Isaiah speaks of the Sabbath as a particular period of time in an eschatological context, not a day without end, as in stating that it represents our eternal rest.

The points of contention are as follows:

1. The Bible doesn't designate it as such
2. It was established before sin entered the world, and the types that were/are sabbaths, were established as a result of sin Gal. 3:19
3. Isaiah speaks of it as a particular period of time, "from one Sabbath to another", not as an eternal rest--a day without end.
4. It was established to memorialize God's creation

 

[rstrats]

BigNorsk,

re: "...I labored in order to be righteous..."

But what labors, in an effort to be righteous, did you do that you no longer do?

 

[rstrats]

Normann,

re: " How silly..."

Perhaps, but I would still like to know how you arrive at your idea that the counting of Pentecost changes the seven day cycle continuity of the weekly Sabbath.

 

[MrsSeptemberPenguin]

Ok, most people would call Sunday the sabbath. It's when most people go to church, and do things like that. Although in Bible times, I do believe the sabbath would have been on saturday. Now personally. I don't really think it much matters what day you celebrate the sabbath. Most americans are not willing to take the time out of thier schedule (me included) even though we should. The point of the sabbath is to take time to rest and focus on God, I don't think it really matters what day of the week that is.

 

[Normann]

The word sabbath in Hebrew does not spell out a day, it mean rest. Therefore the sabbath is the rest we take after six days of work.

The command to keep the sabbath is not found in the N. T.

IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann

 

[CanisLupus]

Ok, most people would call Sunday the sabbath. It's when most people go to church, and do things like that. Although in Bible times, I do believe the sabbath would have been on saturday. Now personally. I don't really think it much matters what day you celebrate the sabbath. Most americans are not willing to take the time out of thier schedule (me included) even though we should. The point of the sabbath is to take time to rest and focus on God, I don't think it really matters what day of the week that is.

I think it matters to God what day of the week it is.

"The seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God." Exodus 20:10.

"And when the sabbath was past, ...very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre." Mark 16:1,2.

He specifically says the "seventh day". So, I think that we should do it on the day that God blessed and sanctified for the Sabbath instead of a day God did not bless or sanctify.

Genesis 2:3 - "And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. "

 

[CanisLupus]

The word sabbath in Hebrew does not spell out a day, it mean rest. Therefore the sabbath is the rest we take after six days of work.

Your correct, the word Sabbath means rest. God told us to rest on the day He blessed, so I chose that day (the seventh day).
(Also see my previous post to squirrelz_15)

The command to keep the sabbath is not found in the N. T.

God teaches us to obey and follow Him in the NT and we should follow His law if we follow him (including the 4th commandment). Also, many times in the TN Jesus Him self keeps the Seventh Day sabbath and so does Paul!

 

[oldsage]

The word sabbath in Hebrew does not spell out a day, it mean rest. Therefore the sabbath is the rest we take after six days of work.

The command to keep the sabbath is not found in the N. T.

IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann

Exodus 20:8[font=&quot] μνήσθητι τὴν ἡμέραν τῶν σαββάτων ἁγιάζειν αὐτήν[/font]

This is how the LXX has this passage rendered, I can't post Hebrew characters right now but the Hebrew word yom is used in the passage, and it clearly calls it the Sabbath day. In the LXX it is called the "day of the Sabbath"

So, I will have to say you are mistaken.

For me, I think we should stick to the day God picked, I dunno, I just think He is a bit more intelligent than I am.

As far as having to work six days first, you didn't read that in the bible, the bible never ever says you have to work six days first. I think you are misrepresenting the text. What works for me is just reading it and taking it for what is means.

Chris

 

[oldsage]

Ok, most people would call Sunday the sabbath. It's when most people go to church, and do things like that. Although in Bible times, I do believe the sabbath would have been on saturday. Now personally. I don't really think it much matters what day you celebrate the sabbath. Most americans are not willing to take the time out of thier schedule (me included) even though we should. The point of the sabbath is to take time to rest and focus on God, I don't think it really matters what day of the week that is.

Personally, just about everyone I speak with says the Sabbath starts on friday at sundown and ends on sundown saturday. The issue in the bible has always been doing what God says or doing your own thing. We always get in trouble doing our own thing because we think we know what is better for us than God does. My question for you is this, Why would it not matter now? Are we so in to our ownselves now that God has become not important that we don't want to take time for Him?

I personally see no problem with just doing what it is that God has said do, to the best of my ability.

Chris

 

[BigNorsk]

Ok, well, this makes no sense since you are talking about apples and oranges. for one, before I was a Christian I stole and lied and such, after I became I became a Christian I can still steal and lie? because of Jesus' faithfullness and righteousness? can I lie because Jesus is the truth? So, I don't have to worry about doing that? which is what you are saying that you can break the Sabbath because Jesus is the Sabbath.

Becoming Christian doesn't mean you toss out the standard. All it means is you have been lifted above the standard by His hand not receiving the condemnation which you deserve. The Sabbath points to the rest we will have after the resurrection, the rest we have in Jesus is not a rest of no longer doing what is right, but a rest from our labor of doing the work on our own, were Jesus will now take the yoke and plow with us.
Grace is not something that is passive:

ROMANS 1:5 “We RECEIVED GRACE and apostleship FOR OBEDIENCE to the faith ...”

TITUS 2:11-14 “For the GRACE of God that brings salvation to all men TEACHES US that denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present age, looking for ... Jesus, who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.


Our outlook on the law of God is one of delight:

HEBREWS 8:10 “ I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts”

(Ezekiel 36:27,28, Jeremiah 3:33, Hebrews 10:16).

PSALM 40:8 “I delight to do thy will... yea, they law is written within my heart.”

ROMANS 7:22 “For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.”

PSALM 119:97 “Oh how I love thy Law!”

PSALM 119:165 “Great peace have they which love thy law.”

We need to get out of the negativity we have toward God's law. Is the thing that convicts us of sin, sin? Or is the Law of God holy and just and good? Jesus didn't come to do away with the Law just as He stated at the beginning of His ministry, but came to declare us righteous for those that accept His offer of salvation and to give us strength to overcome sin.

Chris

I am not talking apples and oranges but rather law and gospel.

I don't know why you jump to the rediculous conclusion that because Christ is the fulfillment of the Sabbath that means go out an sin as much as you can. I never said such and neither did Paul.

Romans 6:15-18 NET
(15) What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Absolutely not!
(16) Do you not know that if you present yourselves as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or obedience resulting in righteousness?
(17) But thanks be to God that though you were slaves to sin, you obeyed from the heart that pattern of teaching you were entrusted to,
(18) and having been freed from sin, you became enslaved to righteousness.

A slave of righteousness does not go out and sin all the more. It is not like being under the law where the law says do not do and the desire is awakened. It is superior to the law.

Your whole God plowing with us and grace is not passive sounds like you are a Pelagian teaching that we must do works in order to earn salvation. I do hope you aren't teaching a works based salvation but it sure sounds like it.

Back to the specific work of the Saturday Sabbath. God fortold the ending of the Saturday Sabbath.

Hosea 2:11 NET
(11) I will put an end to all her celebration: her annual religious festivals, monthly new moon celebrations, and weekly Sabbath festivities — all her appointed festivals.

I am going to presume you don't celebrate the new moon Sabbath anymore? Probably don't celebrate the annual festivals such as the Passover. Yet you cling to the weekly Sabbath. Why is that?

We see them mentioned together in the New Testament.

Colossians 2:16-17 NET
(16) Therefore do not let anyone judge you with respect to food or drink, or in the matter of a feast, new moon, or Sabbath days —
(17) these are only the shadow of the things to come, but the reality is Christ!

and
Galatians 4:9-11 NET
(9) But now that you have come to know God (or rather to be known by God), how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless basic forces? Do you want to be enslaved to them all over again?
(10) You are observing religious days and months and seasons and years.
(11) I fear for you that my work for you may have been in vain.

The Saturday Sabbath does link back to the Creation of the world, though it is also linked to the time in Egypt. The new Sabbath is also linked to the new creation.

2 Corinthians 5:17 NET
(17) So then, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; what is old has passed away — look, what is new has come!

Christians are a new creation, we are in Christ and there is a new day.

Hebrews 4:7-10 NET
(7) So God again ordains a certain day, "Today," speaking through David after so long a time, as in the words quoted before, "O, that today you would listen as he speaks! Do not harden your hearts."
(8) For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken afterward about another day.
(9) Consequently a Sabbath rest remains for the people of God.
(10) For the one who enters God's rest has also rested from his works, just as God did from his own works.

Don't confuse creations and Sabbaths, it doesn't work very well.

Marv