• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Which Day of the Week is the Sabbath? (2)

Montalban

Well-Known Member
Jan 20, 2004
35,424
1,509
58
Sydney, NSW
✟42,787.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
tall73 said:
You contended that the nt didn't endorse Sabbath keeping. So I showed that Jesus kept and reformed it, and Paul kept it, and both endorsed the 10 commandment law, as written on the heart. Then you change the discussion to why we don't have vestments. I have already addressed that by citing Hebrews which shows that Jesus was the real sacrifice. Why continue to offer sacrifices if you have the real one?
I have asked under the heading of another post a question to SDA's about selective use of Jewish law; you don't have a rabai, what this has to do with the sacrifice, I don't know, because there's nothing there to say 'discontinue with rabais', even if you believe JUST ONE of their functions has been superseeded, although you simply make a 'just-so' argument for that too.
tall73 said:
The Sabbath on the other hand was given at creation before sin, and was part of the 10 commandment law. If it came before sin, it cannot be part of the sacrificial service which was not instituted until after sin.
Where was it given at creation? Cite the verses.
tall73 said:
Paul keeping the Sabbath is a development? Hardly. It was the same law that Jesus said He would not destroy.
You missed this one! You noted that Paul went to the Synagogue, continued to do so after Jesus was the 'sacrifice' so you need to show why if this was the case re: Jesus, Paul would continue to attend Jewish services.

You probably would say that Paul says that it was not NECESSARY to continue in the Temple; which is a case of Paul 'modifying' what was happening in Jesus time; because JESUS DID NOT SAY TO STOP GOING TO THE TEMPLE. SO you accept a 'modification' by one apostle on one issue, but claim the 'modification' of the Sabbath to be wrong! :scratch:
 
Upvote 0

Nazaroo

Joseph is still alive! (Gen 45.26)
Dec 5, 2005
2,626
68
clinging to Jesus sandalstrap
✟18,230.00
Faith
Christian
The Argument that Jesus Broke the Sabbath Examined



Is This the Jesus We Know?

A recent book states offers a sad interpretation of Jesus' preaching: 'It is obvious...that Jesus...is saying that he can do just what he wants to do on any day, even on the Sabbath!' (pg 177) Even if the Son of God can do whatever He wants, this is hardly permission for others to. Again it's irrelevant. But this portrait of Jesus seems so unnatural, we are compelled to ask: Does the author really understand Jesus' teaching about the Sabbath? (Matt 15:12-13)

Jesus' Real Teaching about the Sabbath


As a Teacher of Israel, Jesus gave a clear and spiritually uplifting ruling on Sabbath keeping: One of the major controversies at the time was how the Sabbath should be kept. Some groups like the Essenes were extremely strict. Like a breath of fresh air, Jesus injects some common sense into the discussion. He teaches that itis lawful to do good on the Sabbath. The purpose of the Sabbath is to serve man, the crown of God's creation. The law is good if used lawfully. (1 Tim 1:8) The Sabbath cannot serve man at all if it is revoked! Neither is the Son of Man Lord of the Sabbath, if the Sabbath does not exist. (Mark 2:27) This harmonizes with His complaint that the lawyers had loaded men with unbearable burdens, and with His promise that His own yoke would be light. (Luke 11:46, Matt 11:30) Surely, if Jesus had intended to either move the Sabbath or cancel it, the opportune time to say something would have been during these Sabbath disputes! (The author uses this same argument in defending musical instruments for worship on pg.128!). Instead, Jesus chose to illustrate the spirit of the Sabbath, a spirit of service, by helping people.

A Movable Sabbath


The book finally retreats to the position that the day was simply moved from Saturday to Sunday, at the start of the New Covenant. (pg 178 f) But even if we grant the author's apparently strong argument regarding the moving of the Sabbath, then obviously the principle of the Sabbath has remained entirely intact! (which he admits):

'There may be a principle behind the Sabbath law,..

which demands...that we set time aside each week..' (pg 173, italics his)

Furthermore, if we believe the New Covenant is eternal, then if the Sabbath has simply been moved, no new revelation can surely be expected to then cancel it later. And this seems to be his position:

'The day of the OT was the seventh day of the week,

and the day of the NT was the first day of the week.' (pg 173)

No Agreement on True Sabbath


This explanation of the Sabbath in the NT is naive. The truth of the matter is more subtle than the author understands it to be, but it is no mystery. There is no direct evidence that Jesus commanded the Sabbath to be moved at all, at any specific time, for any reason. The author admits that,

'Jesus himself lived and died under the Judaic Covenant.' (pg 115)

In fact, the central church in Jerusalem (and Paul too!) continued to observe the Sabbath until they were banned from the synagogues. As a matter of fact, the Sabbath was not officially moved to Sunday by the church until the 4th century. This is well known both from Acts, and common history. Later references in Acts and Paul refer to the Gentile churches, not the Jerusalem congregation. All he has shown is why the moving of the Sabbath was so easily accepted by Christians later in history.

A much simpler and more plausible explanation for meetings on the First of the Week is this. It is now known that Jews at the time of Christ were already divided into at least five major religious parties, which were already quarreling fiercely over what calendar to use for worship. Those in control of the temple used a lunar calendar. Protesters used a solar calendar, celebrating holidays at different times, yet continuing to worship at the temple also, like Jesus and His followers. It is likely that a large number of Christians came from these marginalized Jewish groups.

Original Sabbath Unknown

Simplistic solutions to the Sabbath just don't address reality. The Middle East has been under many different calendars, disrupted by numerous empires. No one knows nor can demonstrate on which day the original Sabbath took place. Even the Bible can't tell us, nor can the Jews.

Our modern calendar appears to be inaccurate by several years! But even if we could establish when the Sabbath was kept in Jesus' day, it would be meaningless. The Babylonian lunar calendar brought back by the Jews of the Second Temple has no relation at all to the solar calendar of Moses. The author and his opponents are arguing about nothing.

We have no comment from Jesus, but this silence cannot be interpreted as approval of any calendar given the raging controversy in His times. The apparent approval of a rival calendar by Christians does nothing for the author's argument: If the temple calendar was wrong, then the Sabbath wasn't moved at all, but restored back, and Christians were simply keeping the Sabbath. The situation is even worse for the Adventists, since they would then be reverting to a false Sabbath. But it is likely that the exact Sabbath day was not an issue for Jesus in the light of more serious breaches of law. He merely followed cultural norms to avoid creating a new and totally needless controversy over the day.


Time Zone Problem Unresolved

Jews and Gentiles no longer live in a narrow geographical region of one time zone. Do we clock the Sabbath by Jerusalem time, or by the wording of the command? (dusk to dusk). Do we use Greenwich Mean Time or invent a new system? The world is no longer flat! Finally, we now know that for large areas of the earth near the poles, days and nights are six months long! Year-long Sabbaths are hardly feasable for people living in these regions. Consequently, the commandment has to be modified or interpreted somehow.

For convenience Christians have adopted International time/date standards, but this has no biblical basis at all. This is not merely an academic question, but is debated by Jews and Christians all over the world. Both the author and his opponents offer no suggestions on these practical matters, for they are completely unaware of them. The answer to all these problems is found in the purpose and benefit God intended.

Firstly, for Israelites, the Sabbath is a sign of their own identity. Thus it can be and should be kept, wherever Israelites may find themselves. Locally, Israelites ought to keep sabbath on the same day, to encourage community, minimize inconvenience, and clearly mark it. This requires communicaton and agreement to establish local convention. Similarly, it must not be kept too strictly, because this would transform it from a day of rest and celebration into a burden. Yet, not so leniently that it is indistinguishable from other days.

For Christians, the same concerns apply. The added purpose of celebrating the resurrection may seem to make establishing a basic date for the Middle East both important and plausible. But consider the following: In 1582 Gregory XIII found a miscalculation and decreed to drop October 5th to the 14th and to drop three leap years in every century. In England 11 days (Sept. 3rd - 13th) were dropped in 1752, in addition to other changes. It is unknown by us whether records are even complete enough to count backwards with corrections and establish even the Roman days of the week, and perhaps from there determine Jewish reckonings for the time of Christ. One thing is clear: currently equally qualified and intelligent scholars of every denomination cannot agree upon exact dates, even as to the year, let alone the exact day, of events in the time of Jesus. No one even claims it is humanly possible to reach back to the time of Moses.

Considering the added issue of emergency and other essential services, such as policing, firefighting, ambulance and medical, as well as global commerce, for now it seems reasonable to continue to use established (relaxed) conventions for Sabbath or Sunday worship. We would do so in order to minimize the burden a weekly Holy Day imposes upon the poor and sick. Furthermore, allowing reasonable exceptions for those forced to do shiftwork or provide essential services, we believe is in the Spirit of Christ.





 
Upvote 0

oldsage

Veteran
Nov 4, 2005
1,307
70
56
Pinellas Park, FL
✟1,833.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Normann said:
The command to keep the Sabbath is not in the New Testament.

There is no proff in the Bible that Saturday is the Sabbath.

There is no proff in the Bible that Saturday is the 7th day.

IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann

All these has been answered and you have not refuted the answers. I understand you may believe if you say the same thing long enough it will be true, but in reality, this isn't the case.

Chris
 
Upvote 0

Normann

Well-Known Member
Mar 30, 2005
1,149
42
Victoria, Texas USA
✟24,022.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Cliff2 said:
We still get down to the fact that no where in the NT can verse be found that says the Sabbath has been changed from the 7th day of the week to the 1st day of the week.

The early Church fathers do not so much concern me as unless it can be shown from the Bible then I am not going to take any notice of what is put up.


Now you're talking, and also no where in the Bible is Saturday named as the 7th day!

Thanks Cliff,

Normann
 
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,698
6,115
Visit site
✟1,053,671.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Montalban said:
I have asked under the heading of another post a question to SDA's about selective use of Jewish law; you don't have a rabai, what this has to do with the sacrifice, I don't know, because there's nothing there to say 'discontinue with rabais', even if you believe JUST ONE of their functions has been superseeded, although you simply make a 'just-so' argument for that too.

The scribes and pharisees were a middle class teaching group dedicated to the law. They were not however Scripturally mandated. They arose after the diaspora primarily as a response to the people's loose keeping of the law previously, and gained prominence because the Sadducees (sons of Zaddok), largely comprising the priestly class, and the upper class had tended toward liberalism and sympathy for Greek custom. Since both were on the Sanhedrin, the council that ruled the nation at the time, Jesus could say that they sat in the seat of Moses, ruling the people (under Roman rule of course). But the existance of such was not mandated by the law.

The priests on the other hand were mandated by the law to carry out the sacrificial system etc. And that system was fulfilled by Jesus sacrifice. So there is no reason for rabbis who were simply teachers that were not prescribed in the law. For that matter we do have teachers, but there seems little reason to call them after the name of that culture.

Where was it given at creation? Cite the verses.

Now who is repeating themselves? That has only been answered at least 20 times in the two threads. Genesis 2, 7th day of creation.

You missed this one! You noted that Paul went to the Synagogue, continued to do so after Jesus was the 'sacrifice' so you need to show why if this was the case re: Jesus, Paul would continue to attend Jewish services.

The synagogue was their church service, so he went both to teach them about Jesus, and because it was Sabbath. however, when there was not synagogue he went to a place of prayer.

You seem to be confusing the synagogue with the temple where the sacrifices happened.

You probably would say that Paul says that it was not NECESSARY to continue in the Temple; which is a case of Paul 'modifying' what was happening in Jesus time; because JESUS DID NOT SAY TO STOP GOING TO THE TEMPLE. SO you accept a 'modification' by one apostle on one issue, but claim the 'modification' of the Sabbath to be wrong! :scratch:

Actually we say that the sacrifices always pointed to Jesus, that John pointed out that he was the lamb which takes away the sin of the world, that God indicated the end of the service by rending the curtain and that Jesus did indeed teach them that His body was broken for them as the new covenant.

Moreover, are you contending that the modification of the Sabbath after the 5th century was an act of apostolic change?
 
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,698
6,115
Visit site
✟1,053,671.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Nazaroo,

I think that yours is the first nuanced approach to the specific questions of the covenants, the interpretation of Paul, etc. I don't entirely agree with you, obviously, though I agree with you on quite a bit. I intend to address the major points soon, but I wanted to clarify a few things first, so that I can make sure I have your view down...let me know where I am not getting it:

a. You see the new covenant as a new agreement for jews and gentiles, not a co-opting of the old, but a new agreement. Israel is not redefined as the church, etc. Amnesty is given for the Jews to reverse their covenant curse, and for the gentiles for their unrighteousness in regards to their conscience (Romans 2), so that all are guilty and without excuse.

b. Jesus upheld and reformed the Sabbath

c. The Sabbath was replaced in the 4th century (I assume you are speaking of the statments at the ecumenical council).

d. The three distinctives of the Sabbath, dietary laws and circumcision were not binding on gentiles. This was an agreement of all in Acts 15, not a compromise.

e. You see a fundamental issue in the calendar that makes practical Sabbath observance of a specific day to be impossible


Now some specific questions, again to clarify.

a. You say that amnesty is one time. Is this a statement about the nature of salvation after initial forgiveness?

b. Is it your contention that Sabbath observance continued primarily among the Jews and a minority of gentile Christians, as an elective?


Thanks
 
Upvote 0

Normann

Well-Known Member
Mar 30, 2005
1,149
42
Victoria, Texas USA
✟24,022.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
moicherie said:
Neither is Sunday, Monday , Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday or Friday such names did not exist then.......

That's right and the Sabbath was changed to the very next day every Pentecost.

I is a celebration of rest, not a day.

Normann
 
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,698
6,115
Visit site
✟1,053,671.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Normann said:
Miller and White founded the SDA and made a predoiction Christ would return in 1843.

The seventh day sabbath is founded on a lie.


Normann

Miller never was an SDA, and the church was founded AFTER 1844 when all were aware of the mistake. So I think you need to check your history.

Moreover, James White didn't even accept the Sabbath when presented to him and his wife the first time. I assume you meant James since he was the dominant leader in the early part of the denomination. But either way.

Bates was the one who introduced it to them, and he got it from the Seventh-day Baptists as Old Sage already informed you. And this was after the Millerite movement, the dissapointment, etc.

And besides, I thought history was not your thing?
 
Upvote 0

remnantrob

Junior Member
Sep 8, 2005
53
3
43
✟22,789.00
Faith
SDA
Normann said:
Miller and White founded the SDA and made a predoiction Christ would return in 1843.

The seventh day sabbath is founded on a lie.


Normann

I've been reading the whole thread from the beginning and honestly your posts are becoming quite annoying. You act as if you don't see what's infront of you and then you bash a church for the seventh day sabbath that they didn't even institute. If the seventh day sabbath is a lie, then you need to talk to your location jewish brethren, because they've been living the lie of the SDA for thousands of years. If you've got an issue with Adventists, do it in another thread, because your post are really not helping anyone.
 
Upvote 0

Montalban

Well-Known Member
Jan 20, 2004
35,424
1,509
58
Sydney, NSW
✟42,787.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
remnantrob said:
I've been reading the whole thread from the beginning and honestly your posts are becoming quite annoying.
Don't read them then.
remnantrob said:
You act as if you don't see what's infront of you and then you bash a church for the seventh day sabbath that they didn't even institute.
That's a fallacy. The whole debate shows that the SDA church selectively re-established the seventh-day.
remnantrob said:
If the seventh day sabbath is a lie, then you need to talk to your location jewish brethren, because they've been living the lie of the SDA for thousands of years.
That's the whole point, we're not Jewish.

What does your rabbai say on the issue? (given that you want to go back and worship in a Jewish fashion)
 
Upvote 0

Montalban

Well-Known Member
Jan 20, 2004
35,424
1,509
58
Sydney, NSW
✟42,787.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
tall73 said:
The scribes and pharisees were a middle class teaching group dedicated to the law. They were not however Scripturally mandated. They arose after the diaspora primarily as a response to the people's loose keeping of the law previously, and gained prominence because the Sadducees (sons of Zaddok), largely comprising the priestly class, and the upper class had tended toward liberalism and sympathy for Greek custom. Since both were on the Sanhedrin, the council that ruled the nation at the time, Jesus could say that they sat in the seat of Moses, ruling the people (under Roman rule of course). But the existance of such was not mandated by the law.
The existence of priests was. You don't have Jewish custom there.
tall73 said:
The priests on the other hand were mandated by the law to carry out the sacrificial system etc. And that system was fulfilled by Jesus sacrifice. So there is no reason for rabbis who were simply teachers that were not prescribed in the law. For that matter we do have teachers, but there seems little reason to call them after the name of that culture.
You have me on a technicality; I mentioned rabbai, not priest.
tall73 said:
Now who is repeating themselves? That has only been answered at least 20 times in the two threads. Genesis 2, 7th day of creation.
You've mentioned this fact before, that God had rested on the seventh day, show me how that meant that Adam did. Are you comparing the creative work of God over six days to man's work over six days, or what?

tall73 said:
The synagogue was their church service, so he went both to teach them about Jesus, and because it was Sabbath. however, when there was not synagogue he went to a place of prayer.

You seem to be confusing the synagogue with the temple where the sacrifices happened.
As you don't observe either; based on Paul over-turning something, you're the one who is confused.
tall73 said:
Actually we say that the sacrifices always pointed to Jesus, that John pointed out that he was the lamb which takes away the sin of the world, that God indicated the end of the service by rending the curtain and that Jesus did indeed teach them that His body was broken for them as the new covenant.

Moreover, are you contending that the modification of the Sabbath after the 5th century was an act of apostolic change?
No, I'm saying that if you contend that the Sabbath was modified, and that was bad, then why isn't the modification of the temple/synagogue service by the Apostles bad?

Where did Jesus say "Don't go to church anymore?"
 
Upvote 0

Nazaroo

Joseph is still alive! (Gen 45.26)
Dec 5, 2005
2,626
68
clinging to Jesus sandalstrap
✟18,230.00
Faith
Christian
tall73 said:
Nazaroo,

I think that yours is the first nuanced approach to the specific questions of the covenants, the interpretation of Paul, etc. I don't entirely agree with you, obviously, though I agree with you on quite a bit. I intend to address the major points soon, but I wanted to clarify a few things first, so that I can make sure I have your view down...let me know where I am not getting it:

a. You see the new covenant as a new agreement for jews and gentiles, not a co-opting of the old, but a new agreement. Israel is not redefined as the church, etc. Amnesty is given for the Jews to reverse their covenant curse, and for the gentiles for their unrighteousness in regards to their conscience (Romans 2), so that all are guilty and without excuse.

b. Jesus upheld and reformed the Sabbath

c. The Sabbath was replaced in the 4th century (I assume you are speaking of the statments at the ecumenical council).

d. The three distinctives of the Sabbath, dietary laws and circumcision were not binding on gentiles. This was an agreement of all in Acts 15, not a compromise. **

e. You see a fundamental issue in the calendar that makes practical Sabbath observance of a specific day to be impossible


Now some specific questions, again to clarify.

a. You say that amnesty is one time. Is this a statement about the nature of salvation after initial forgiveness?

b. Is it your contention that Sabbath observance continued primarily among the Jews and a minority of gentile Christians, as an elective?


Thanks
Awesome! Somebody is reading what I have posted!
This is a very good summary of what I have posted here.
Obviously I have not provided details on a few points, such as the Sabbath Covenant (an everlasting Identity Covenant) made with Israel.

To clarify a. and b.:

a. I do not believe in 'un-loseable' salvation, or predestination. This heresy spawned from Luther/Calvin opened the door for a lot of foolishness. See my ongoing discussion in Sotoirolgy section, under 'reprobate' (not my thread)

**For supplimentary arguments I depend upon as to the Sabbath, Food Laws and circumcision, see my thread in (I think) Soteroiolgy called "Paul and the Law: Clarification" (my thread).

b. My position is that the Sabbath Covenant is everlasting, but belongs to Israel (physical, loyal remnant). However, the Sabbath itself is older than the Jews or Israel or Moses, and as a Law belongs to all mankind.

Important supplimentary issues I would love to discuss with you particularly.

c. I believe in the Food Laws, both the Noahic Covenant, and the later Levitical instructions, and in fact the vegetarianism of Daniel and John Baptist.

d. I believe the SDAs are correct in insisting that the Sabbath is still a Law, but believe they are in error about the day, or even whether the original day can be established with any plausible scientific accuracy.

e. Since the Sabbath Law is worded as a 'local' commandment, not accounting for time zones or Arctic Circles, it has to be modified and interpreted intelligently to be applied practically.

f. I strongly doubt the SDA argument that SDA were given a 'revelation' to restore Sabbath. But that is a moot point, since it should always have been obeyed.

g. I don't think Jesus is concerned about the technical aspects of calendars as much as He is about HOW the Sabbath must be kept, and the unity of community.

h. I do believe if you are going to have a biblical calendar, it will be the solar one of Qumran, not the Babylonian Lunar calendar of the 2nd Temple priests.
 
Upvote 0