razeontherock
Well-Known Member
We know who James was, what he did before joining the Church, what his role in the Church was, when he died, and how. In short, we know a great deal about his life.
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We don't know who this James was, or whether he had any authority in the early church.
We know who James was, what he did before joining the Church, what his role in the Church was, when he died, and how. In short, we know a great deal about his life.
Certainly. Do you know of a single contemporary of James who mentioned anything about the book of James in the first century?While you're thinking about it, think about what his contemporaries said
Certainly. Do you know of a single contemporary of James who mentioned anything about the book of James in the first century?
How do you know that it was this James who wrote the book of James? Can you find a single contemporary writing that says that the book of James was written by the James that was in charge of their Liturgy?Yup. EVERYONE in the whole Church of Jerusalem. You know, the time period when ALL Christians were part of the Church of Jerusalem?
James was in charge of their Liturgy. It's still practiced today.
So with nobody else able to find a contemporary witness to the authorship of James, why is it that we find you so amused that I know of no early written witness to the authorship of James?
Moving the goalposts. I never used the word "written." Why would you presume it even matters? Do you write down that you are left handed? (You are left-handed, right?)Seriously, common knowledge is not something we normally write down, or more importantly what is normal to us has no bearing on what was normal to them. For them it was normal to respect face to face spoken testimony from someone they knew and trusted, and to suspect something written as being a forgery since no one cared enough to present it in person.
These people did not live in a vacuum, nor did they evaporate. This is not some lost, ancient civilization we're talking about here.
Re James, the internal evidence in the NT is as follows from the council of Jerusalem in Acts 15. Now I quote from info I have read elsewhere that follows scripture where referenced. Paul describes James as being one of the persons the risen Christ showed himself to ( 1 corinthians 15:3-8), then later in 1 Corinthians (9:5) mentions he had been married & in Galatians (2:9 & 2:12) Paul lists James with Cephas (Peter) as the 3 pillars of the church..
Outside the NT the unity of St.James theology & st. Paul's is addressed by St. Clement of Rome to the Corinthians (ca. 95-100 AD). Although James is not named, the explicit theology of faith & works is clearly from the preaching of James. The fact that it was Clement who heard the preaching of St. Paul's justification by faith as a Roman shows he also knew the preaching of St. james & had to communicate this to the often wandering Corinthians to whom St. Paul always had to baby sit (& there are indications St.Paul wrote 2 other, now lost, epistles to them).
They didn't live in a vacuum, so therefore the book of James was written by the half-brother of Jesus?
I don't follow you logic.
All the people in the Church James presided over, say that ... nm
All the people in the Church James presided over, say...
The very basis of doubt as to the letter of James was written by St. James (step) brother of the Lord (by Joseph) is directed at the role of works within salvation by faith. St. Paul preached salvation by faith in his letter to the Romans & later returned to the role of works within it in the 12th chapter but when many people read St. Paul & St. James they assume there is conflict but there really is none.The question is not what this James did. The question is whether this James or some other James wrote the book of James.
Since you seem to be informed about what all the people in the Church James presided at say, could you please tell us if they say that the Apocalypse of James was written by James the half-brother of Jesus also? Do they say the Infancy Gospel of James was written by him also? And do they say the Gospel of Thomas was written by Thomas, a twin brother of Jesus as claimed?
For it seems to me that the logic you use to validate the book of James would validate all of these books.
some books are obviously imitations that were not written by apostles.
For it seems to me that the logic you use to validate the book of James would validate all of these books.
In response to the part I bolded - why? I see no logical connection to enable that conclusion.
Instead, if you build on what you already know:
You would answer most of your own questions.some books are obviously imitations that were not written by apostles.
You made an argument that the book of James was written by James, the half-brother of Jesus. I could use the exact same arguement to show that the Infancy Gospel of James was written by the same James, and the Gospel of Thomas was written by the twin of Jesus.
The very basis of doubt as to the letter of James was written by St. James (step) brother of the Lord (by Joseph) is directed at the role of works within salvation by faith.
Since many perceive the preaching in the epistle of James in conflict with St. Paul a later date (usually 2nd cent.) is assigned to the epistle but how can this be when the same preaching is espoused in a section of the letter of St. Clement of Rome written before 100 AD?
I am not saying you will believe Christianity is true but the NT is our record of what we beleive to be God's revelation to us.
This matter remained settled for centuries until Martin Luther raised the same mistaken doubts and although he probably knew of clement's letter in history, the actual letter did not resurface in the west until the 17th c. so he unfortunately did not understand the role of works within salvation by faith
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