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Whether God exists

ConfusedTom

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Then prove it. Your simple assertation does nothing other then stat that you believe it.

Prove it? Well shucks!

I'll give a sorta-updated, physics-based riff on good old Tommy Aquinas here.

Given:
1. the law of conservation of energy
2. the second law of thermodynamics
3. the continuing observable increase in entropy in the universe
4. from what we know of causation, things do not cause themselves to be. (In order to do so, something would have to have causal power during a time at which it does not exist)

From 1, 2 and 3....
5. the universe has a finite previous history (i.e. the timeline of this universe only goes back so far.. there's a beginning to the universe, in other words.)

From 4 and 5....
6. Something other than the universe caused the universe to be at some point in the past a finite time before now.

7. We'll call this cause God.

Where this gets thorny is that physics may or may not be proving out #4. There's virtual particles and other quantum weirdness to consider. It's a bit sticky whether they cause themselves. I say no, as they're not capable of causing anything until the actually exist in the first place. If we allow things that don't exist to be causing things willy-nilly in our metaphysics, then Pegasus might steal my identity and commit credit fraud in my name. ;)

What will you say to me? Why... this!!

The only way those 5 'proofs' work is to presuppose God. Four of them are arguments from ignorance: 'I don't know what started motion. I will call it God.','I don't know how time started. I will call it God.', 'I don't know how the universe was created. I will call it God.', and 'I don't know how natural laws work. I will call it God.'

What causes mass? I don't know. I will call it the Higgs Boson. :blush:

I admit that the unmoved mover doesn't do well to give you a full picture of God. All it does is say that there is something that caused the universe to be. That's a far cry from the god or gods of any particular religion.
 
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IzzyPop

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Prove it? Well shucks!

I'll give a sorta-updated, physics-based riff on good old Tommy Aquinas here.

Given:
1. the law of conservation of energy
2. the second law of thermodynamics
3. the continuing observable increase in entropy in the universe
4. from what we know of causation, things do not cause themselves to be. (In order to do so, something would have to have causal power during a time at which it does not exist)

From 1, 2 and 3....
5. the universe has a finite previous history (i.e. the timeline of this universe only goes back so far.. there's a beginning to the universe, in other words.)

From 4 and 5....
6. Something other than the universe caused the universe to be at some point in the past a finite time before now.

7. We'll call this cause God.

Where this gets thorny is that physics may or may not be proving out #4. There's virtual particles and other quantum weirdness to consider. It's a bit sticky whether they cause themselves. I say no, as they're not capable of causing anything until the actually exist in the first place. If we allow things that don't exist to be causing things willy-nilly in our metaphysics, then Pegasus might steal my identity and commit credit fraud in my name. ;)

What will you say to me? Why... this!!



What causes mass? I don't know. I will call it the Higgs Boson. :blush:

I admit that the unmoved mover doesn't do well to give you a full picture of God. All it does is say that there is something that caused the universe to be. That's a far cry from the god or gods of any particular religion.

You actually put a smile on my face with this. Thanks.:D

I spent several years as a deist do to the unmoved mover question. What did start it all? I just looked at the probabilities. Science has a good track record at answering previously unanswerable questions. God doesn't. I'll bet on the winning horse.

(It's actually a bit deeper and more involved then that. This thread is not the place.)
 
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ConfusedTom

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You actually put a smile on my face with this. Thanks.:D

You're welcome! The fact that you had a smile gives me one too.

I spent several years as a deist do to the unmoved mover question. What did start it all? I just looked at the probabilities. Science has a good track record at answering previously unanswerable questions. God doesn't. I'll bet on the winning horse.

(It's actually a bit deeper and more involved then that. This thread is not the place.)

I'd agree that it's definitely deeper and more involved than that. I'd love to discuss it some time with you. I spent several years agnostic-ish/deist-ish myself before I'd finished my physics and philosophy degrees.

take care!
-Tom
 
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JSynon

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Don't get me wrong. Arguing is fun. I love philosophy. I could sit here and discuss the traditional arguments for and against God all day. But I think we'd all be better off admitting that it really does not matter whether God exists or not. Just a thought. Whether you agree with me or not: be sure to sleep on it.
 
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