Where's the line between struggling with sin and being scrupulous?

[donfish06]

I try not to sin (though I could always try harder). And it's sort of stressing me out. I watch every little thing I do to make sure I don't sin; I try not to go over the speed limit at all, make sure to wash my hands at least ten seconds at work (I work with food and it's a rule), and make sure I obey my parents to the T.

This is making my days unenjoyable. I'm pretty sure I'm saved, but should I be feeling this way? Shouldn't it be a pleasure to serve our Lord? If I am saved then no amount of sinning will take away my salvation. However, I still don't like to sin.

And at work, we are supposed to stop what we're doing after every transaction just to wash our hands. Well, when we have a line of people, that slows everything down! Even my boss doesn't do that!

It's just little things like that, that are stressing me out. I could really use some insight here. Thank you

Are you newly saved?

 

[ashwaters77]

Ecclesiastes 7:16-19New King James Version (NKJV)


16 Do not be overly righteous,
Nor be overly wise:
Why should you destroy yourself?
17 Do not be overly wicked,
Nor be foolish:
Why should you die before your time?
18 It is good that you grasp this,
And also not remove your hand from the other;
For he who fears God will escape them all.

I stress over sin the same way too and I agree with another post it could be OCD because I've dealt with that for years. But hey, take heart that you're not alone in your struggle. The bible verse I posted helps me with sin. We will deal with sin everyday. It's great that you hate sin. Knowing that Jesus takes my sin away and that other saints have dealt with sin too helps me know I'm not alone. I would say be kinder to your self and know that Jesus saved you and I when we were still sinners and knows we will sin. Ask for forgiveness and it will be forgiven. We can't be perfect but He is. Jesus loves us so much. It's incredible. Also when I get into those moments where I feel bad I sinned about something small like "washing my hands for 10 seconds" I have to tell myself "what's the worst that will happen?" It helps me keep myself in check knowing that God did everything for me. I also say "everything will be okay" to myself too. God still loves you if you don't wash your hands. He wants us to repent and be close to him. I am here if you'd like to talk. Have a great weekend
<3

I try not to sin (though I could always try harder). And it's sort of stressing me out. I watch every little thing I do to make sure I don't sin; I try not to go over the speed limit at all, make sure to wash my hands at least ten seconds at work (I work with food and it's a rule), and make sure I obey my parents to the T.

This is making my days unenjoyable. I'm pretty sure I'm saved, but should I be feeling this way? Shouldn't it be a pleasure to serve our Lord? If I am saved then no amount of sinning will take away my salvation. However, I still don't like to sin.

And at work, we are supposed to stop what we're doing after every transaction just to wash our hands. Well, when we have a line of people, that slows everything down! Even my boss doesn't do that!

It's just little things like that, that are stressing me out. I could really use some insight here. Thank you

I try not to sin (though I could always try harder). And it's sort of stressing me out. I watch every little thing I do to make sure I don't sin; I try not to go over the speed limit at all, make sure to wash my hands at least ten seconds at work (I work with food and it's a rule), and make sure I obey my parents to the T.

This is making my days unenjoyable. I'm pretty sure I'm saved, but should I be feeling this way? Shouldn't it be a pleasure to serve our Lord? If I am saved then no amount of sinning will take away my salvation. However, I still don't like to sin.

And at work, we are supposed to stop what we're doing after every transaction just to wash our hands. Well, when we have a line of people, that slows everything down! Even my boss doesn't do that!

It's just little things like that, that are stressing me out. I could really use some insight here. Thank you

 

[Winken]

How did you break out of Legalism? I don't want to not care about what I would call "little sins", like the hand washing thing (which impedes on the "following authorities" statement in the Bible), but every time I make the decision not to walk over there and wash my hands, I feel I've sinned against God. I don't want to be complacent over sins!

You don't sin when you fail to walk over there and wash your hands. Period. Jesus paid it all, all to Him we owe, sin had left a crimson stain, HE WASHED US white as snow. Nothing, no thing, can unwash us, praise God. Clean before our Lord we stand, and in us not one blemish does He see. Memorize 1 John 1:9, not to "get saved again," but as something precious to recall each time you experience guilt. All you need to say is "Father, thank you, for 1 John 1:9." Then go on about your duties rejoicing.

You are abundantly blessed in Jesus!! Merriest of Christmases!!

 

[insurchoftruth]

The fact that you are struggling with sin, shows that you are pleasing God, and are really born again. God knows that we never can keep all the commands of God, 100% all the time, and that is why we need grace, but we must try to do so, to keep the commands of God, with the help of the Holy Spirit in us, as much as we can, because, Apostle Paul says that we are supposed to struggle with sin, to the point of shedding blood.

 

[rubyinprogress]

Jesus wants a relationship with you. He wants your worship and your heart attitude. Yes, He wants us to obey authorities and such, but that is not the main thing. The main thing is your relationship with Him. Keep seeking Him. Keep getting to know Him though reading the Word. Don't let sins little or big cause you to pull away from Him. Always run to Him when you fall down and He will brush you off and clean you up and set you on the right path again. The joy will come in the relationship, not in being focused on doing everything right. Remember that He lives in you "to will and to do according to His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13) That is a life-changing process, not a one time event. He is the vine and you are a branch. He will produce fruit in you. Just "BE" rather than trying so hard to "DO". When you look back years from now you will see how much you have grown.

Oh, and as far as the OCD thing. Unless this has affected you before becoming a believer or is affecting other areas of your life, I doubt it is OCD. New believers often have very tender consciences. One passage in Corinthians calls them "weak" consciences. That just means you will get stronger the more you grow in your faith. It's not meant as a put down. I was the same way in my teen years and I have never had OCD. If you do have other issues talk to a professional, but this alone is not OCD.

 

[harkpuff]

Many Christians believe that all sin is the same however, this is not true. There are actually three kinds of sin that takes place in the church.
First there is the sin of the un-believer. These are the folks that are un-saved and possibly attending church because they are seeking their way to salvation. They are living in unrepentant sin because it is the nature of the fallen and lost. For these folks the church has no authority over as Paul states in 1 Cor. Chapter 5. The church has no authority over the lost because they are not members of the family of God.
The second kind of sin is the sins of the saved. These are the little daily sins that we are all guilty of that sometimes we do almost unconsciously. The sins of omission...not doing something that we know we should have done, the little white fib, the angry snap at our spouse or children. These are sins that are not typical of us. These are the sins of those that are consciously walking close to God and have a close relationship with Him. For these folks the sun rarely sets on the day before we are aware of the sins we have committed during the day and we are quick to go to God and confess these things and say God...you know I blew it today. These folks are in good standing with God because their sins are not part of their lifestyle and they are not done out of willful, wanton and unrepentant rebellion against God.
The third kind of sin are the sins to the saved person who has actually willfully turned their backs on God. They know what the Bible says about an issue, they know where the church stands on an issue, but they have decided in their heart that by golly!, I'm going to do it anyway. This is wanton, willful, rebellious and unrepentant sin. The church member who is involved in this kind of sin the church definitely has authority over and is subject to Biblical church discipline, again as Paul explains in 1 Cor. chapter 5.
To illustrate: For example in the cases of sexual sin in the church: The non-believer is of course possibly going to be involved in sexual sin, but as Paul indicates the church has no authority over these folks simply because the unbeliever is still in a lost state and not part of the church body. These folks the church would naturally not allow to be a Sunday School teacher or for that matter be allowed to serve anywhere in God's church.
The believer that makes up the majority of the flock who sins occasionally and is quick to recognize his transgression is in good standing and is qualified to serve in places of service.
The third example of the member who is living in willful, wanton, rebellious sin and has made up his mind to do it regardless has made their sin a matter of willful lifestyle is now like the un-believer and therefore un-qualifies themselves to serve in any capacity in the church as long as they are in this un-repentant condition.
I hope this helps explain the kinds of sin in the church.

 

[farishta]

If you die being in wrong faith, it is also sin. It is more serious sin, than forgetting to clean the hands. I recommend to become Eastern Orthodox Christian. Here is the video:

Dear friend you need to read your bible. It clearly says 3Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." You must repent of your sins (turn from) and be born again of the holy spirit. It was nothing about being born again and joining the correct church. Please just pick up your bible and read it as God told me once everything you need to know is in there. God Bless

 

[aus22]

Not all churches distinguish between being saved and sinning. In our church we expect people to sin, We do not like it but offer a means of repentance, As long as you repent you ill be saved.

 

[harkpuff]

Dear friend you need to read your bible. It clearly says 3Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." You must repent of your sins (turn from) and be born again of the holy spirit. It was nothing about being born again and joining the correct church. Please just pick up your bible and read it as God told me once everything you need to know is in there. God Bless

 

[harkpuff]

"It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery." -Gal. 5:1

If we're in Christ, we're free of sin--he took ALL our sins: past, present, AND future. Stop being sin-conscious and become Jesus-conscious. Look at HIM, not your works. Easier said than done, but if you can grasp the message of grace, it will change your life (it did mine!).

Go straight to Amazon and buy The Gospel In Ten Words by Paul Ellis. You will love it; it will set you free by outlining your freedom in Christ. Do yourself a favor and before taking what anyone has said (or will say) in this thread to heart, read this book. It explains everything, in easy to understand terms.

Also, I've been told that the best remedy for being sin-conscious is to read Romans chapters 5 through 8 over and over and over again (esp. chapter 6), until you get a revelation of who you are in Christ. Over and over, as many times as it takes. But read every word letting the Holy Spirit teach you---Don't read it in light of any teaching you've ever heard, and don't read it in light of any denomination's doctrine or teaching. Pray beforehand and ask the Holy Spirit to open your eyes to HIS truth, not man's teachings. And then read it over & over, again & again, until you get it. Especially chapter 6. The book of Galatians is also good for explaining that we're under GRACE, and no longer under law. We are FREE from sin in Christ. It is for freedom that He set us free!

I understand what these verses mean, however there are those that take these same verses to mean that we are free to sin.

 

[ngarciaiii]

I believe that when there's an urge to sin, if one prays to Jesus Christ and Father in Heaven, then it will go away. For me, sometime the hardest part is to pray to forsake the sin.

It can be hard to not sin, when the temptation is great. That happens to me when I am under influence, and then that's when I know to not be under influence again.

Once we are in conviction and accept Jesus Christ as a savior, then the Holy Spirit will swoon into us and change us over time slowly. For me, I notice myself changing for better after I repent (regret and feeling sorrowful), losing desire to sin again. Appalled by my own fleshly behaviors which is like an animal in God's eyes.

 

[owl-inc]

Sin is transgression of the law (of love) as express through the 10 commandments and every word of God.
Love = Concern for Others Welfare > Love for God Love & Neighbor > as expressed by 10 Commandments > As written by Every Word of God to jot & tittle.
Righteousness is by faith through Christ via the Holy Spirit. You pray your way towards righteous perfection (be ye perfect). You should spend at least 2 to 3 times a day in prayer to God. In fact Pray, Bible Study, Fast, Meditate (thinking), and Fellowship on a regular basis (watch and pray always).
To fail via neglect can quickly lead to the wilful sin. See Hebrews 10:26 .

 

[Tate]

Jesus wants a relationship with you. He wants your worship and your heart attitude. Yes, He wants us to obey authorities and such, but that is not the main thing. The main thing is your relationship with Him. Keep seeking Him. Keep getting to know Him though reading the Word. Don't let sins little or big cause you to pull away from Him. Always run to Him when you fall down and He will brush you off and clean you up and set you on the right path again. The joy will come in the relationship, not in being focused on doing everything right. Remember that He lives in you "to will and to do according to His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13) That is a life-changing process, not a one time event. He is the vine and you are a branch. He will produce fruit in you. Just "BE" rather than trying so hard to "DO". When you look back years from now you will see how much you have grown.

Oh, and as far as the OCD thing. Unless this has affected you before becoming a believer or is affecting other areas of your life, I doubt it is OCD. New believers often have very tender consciences. One passage in Corinthians calls them "weak" consciences. That just means you will get stronger the more you grow in your faith. It's not meant as a put down. I was the same way in my teen years and I have never had OCD. If you do have other issues talk to a professional, but this alone is not OCD.

My mother has been a Christian for years and she said the same thing about having a weak conscience, but she didn't call it that. I'm just afraid of becoming complacent with sin. If there's something I know I should be doing, but I don't even if it's a little thing, then I feel I've greived the Holy Spirit.

Thank you for your reply. I appreciate it.

 

[Tate]

I believe that when there's an urge to sin, if one prays to Jesus Christ and Father in Heaven, then it will go away. For me, sometime the hardest part is to pray to forsake the sin.

It can be hard to not sin, when the temptation is great. That happens to me when I am under influence, and then that's when I know to not be under influence again.

Once we are in conviction and accept Jesus Christ as a savior, then the Holy Spirit will swoon into us and change us over time slowly. For me, I notice myself changing for better after I repent (regret and feeling sorrowful), losing desire to sin again. Appalled by my own fleshly behaviors which is like an animal in God's eyes.

Sometimes, depending on the sin, I don't feel remorseful because I've done it so long, that I feel I am numb to the sorrow. However, I feel bad for not feeling bad, if that makes sense.

 

[Tate]

Ecclesiastes 7:16-19New King James Version (NKJV)


16 Do not be overly righteous,
Nor be overly wise:
Why should you destroy yourself?
17 Do not be overly wicked,
Nor be foolish:
Why should you die before your time?
18 It is good that you grasp this,
And also not remove your hand from the other;
For he who fears God will escape them all.

I stress over sin the same way too and I agree with another post it could be OCD because I've dealt with that for years. But hey, take heart that you're not alone in your struggle. The bible verse I posted helps me with sin. We will deal with sin everyday. It's great that you hate sin. Knowing that Jesus takes my sin away and that other saints have dealt with sin too helps me know I'm not alone. I would say be kinder to your self and know that Jesus saved you and I when we were still sinners and knows we will sin. Ask for forgiveness and it will be forgiven. We can't be perfect but He is. Jesus loves us so much. It's incredible. Also when I get into those moments where I feel bad I sinned about something small like "washing my hands for 10 seconds" I have to tell myself "what's the worst that will happen?" It helps me keep myself in check knowing that God did everything for me. I also say "everything will be okay" to myself too. God still loves you if you don't wash your hands. He wants us to repent and be close to him. I am here if you'd like to talk. Have a great weekend
<3

Thank you for your reply. I have recently come back to Christ after a few years and it's hard for me to let something go. I try to do everything the "authorities" say, whether it be bosses at work, speeding limit, or even a health inspector's suggestion. I don't want to say that sometimes it's inconvenient to walk over and wash my hands, but it's true. When I don't, I feel bad.

Thank you again for your words. I appreciate them.

 

[jerry kelso]

Thank you for your reply. I have recently come back to Christ after a few years and it's hard for me to let something go. I try to do everything the "authorities" say, whether it be bosses at work, speeding limit, or even a health inspector's suggestion. I don't want to say that sometimes it's inconvenient to walk over and wash my hands, but it's true. When I don't, I feel bad.

Thank you again for your words. I appreciate them.

tate,

1. This is a very important issue for all christians especially if they do not understand the different between the rule of life under the Mosaic law which was for a specific time till the seed should come and the cross replaced the first. 2 Corinthians 3 and Galatians 3:19 and Hebrews 8:6-7.

2. The whole of the Mosaic law is about what you do and the new covenant is being who we are in Christ and his power in the finished work of the cross and resurrection. The righteousness of the law vs. the righteousness of faith. Romans 10:5 and verse 6-10. 2 Corinthians 3:6; the letter of the Mosaic law vs. the Spirit of the law in Christ Jesus of the cross and resurrection message.

3. Galatians 3:24 says the law of Moses was the schoolmaster to help lead them to being justified by faith. Now the righteousness by faith is not under the leading of the Mosaic law but the endless life of Jesus Christ and his finished work at Calvary. verses 26-28; Hebrews 7:16.

4. Galatians 5:1 says to stand fast in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. This yoke of bondage was the Mosaic law and not just men's commandments. If people will understand how the Mosaic system operated, though holy and good it was very hard in many ways because of so many laws they had to keep or else have specific cursing and judgements of which we do not have under the new covenant. You cannot be justified by keeping the Mosaic law and if you try to be you are fallen from grace and are a debtor to do the whole law Galatians 5:3-4.
We need to be into being who we are and not what we are doing. We do because of who we are.

5. The struggle can be defined as a fight or confrontation which we have because the spirit wars against the flesh. We are in a war and the devil will never stop from tempting us and trying to steal, kill, and destroy us for that is what he desires to do; seeking whom he may devour. 1 Peter 5:8. We are to resist him stedfastly verse 9.
We sometimes fall short of God's grace but God is not necessarily going to zap a christian out because there is always forgiveness if one will repent. God is more interested in your relationship with him. At the same time backsliding for a christian is possible and there must be reconciliation James 5:19-20; 1 John 2:2.
We don't sin because of who we are in Christ. A truthful person doesn't lie because he is not a liar but a truthful person could tell a lie? Are you being or doing as a christian.
Can a christian incur a penalty of some kind? They can because he who sows to the flesh will reap fleshly things and he who sows spiritual will reap spiritual things. 2 Corinthians 9:6; Galatians 6:7-8.
There is such thing as apostasy of a christian for Paul said he could be a castaway and a reprobate if he didn't mortify the members of his body and keep it in subjection. 1 Corinthians 9:27

6. The struggle of sin under the Mosaic law is shown in Romans 7 where the law of sin and death took advantage of the Mosaic law that was holy and good and made them live to the frailty of man and sin. They sinned more than obeyed. In Romans 8:2 the law of sin and death that was in Romans 7 taking advantage of the Mosaic law that was holy and good was done away with in Christ.
One must understand the struggle of the old covenant of law and the better promises of the new covenant in Christ to understand the difference about the subject of sin.

7. Peter said in 1 Peter 4:1 to arm ourselves with the arm of suffering. This is why he said the flesh has ceased from sin? Why? So we wouldn't fulfill the things of the flesh. Paul said we are to abstain from all appearance of evil and not be ignorant of satan's devices and said Walk in the Spirit and you won't fulfill the things of the flesh.
It doesn't mean that we have no opportunity to sin or cannot have the possibility to sin because John said all unrighteousness is sin and that covers a lot of ground.
The conscience of sin should not be a christian's mindset for the bible says in Romans 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation in Christ Jesus. If you are constantly condemned when you fall short you are living with the mentality of legalism. On the other hand if you are backsliding to the point that you change masters again you need to feel condemnation in your conscience before you get into the state of apostasy brought on by the law of hardening of the heart.

8. As a whole christians who serve God are not trying to become a full fledged rebel who apostates.

9. As far as the struggle being over initially happens at the new birth because we are free from sin and we have a new nature.

10. This doesn't mean that we may not have old mindsets satan can use against and he will and try to condemn us and make us feel unworthy etc. because we missed the mark and that is why we need to have the mindset of a warrior and a runner whose goal is finishing in victory. Paul used both of these examples and we need this type of mentality.
Though we may never be sinless in this life because we are not in the eternal perfect state as far as every jot and tittle we do it is not impossible to cease from sin whether it is a short or long period of time. We are not to focus on that because then you get into a law mentality and most likely will start messing up. This life is about holiness and living perfect in love because of who we are in Christ. If you are sin conscience to the excess; another words afraid of falling into sin so you are trying to watch every jot and tittle you will be more focused on your struggle with temptation and sin instead of being a witness and warrior for God.

11. For example, if you say I can't help but sin because I'm human it doesn't negate the fact that we aren't human. But it says to the subconscious that Satan has more power to keep you in sin than to keep you from sin. We have to minimize the risk.

12. If it were left up to the power of the Almighty then we could live sinless from the very day we get saved but it depends on his power in us by our cooperation of obedience. The sinless perfection is detrimental in the extreme. At the same time there are some who have surrendered so completely that the issue of falling into sin is no longer as significant in their lives as before.

13. We will always have a struggle as far as a fight or confrontation in the faith but we do not have to struggle with falling into sin all the time or most of the time, otherwise we most likely will not overcome. Overcome like the warrior in the power of an endless life and not in the self effort and conscience that satan brings in trying to observe every jot and tittle of the Mosaic law which we were never under to begin with.

14. If people are subdued only by the law they are more apt to rebel but if they do out of love they will be more apt to not rebel. Do you want your kids to obey you by being subdued by the law or by law of commandments? I hope this helps because I know it is alot of information. If you have any questions I will be glad to answer them. God bless Jerry kelso

 

[sparow]

tate,

1. This is a very important issue for all christians especially if they do not understand the different between the rule of life under the Mosaic law which was for a specific time till the seed should come and the cross replaced the first. 2 Corinthians 3 and Galatians 3:19 and Hebrews 8:6-7.

2. The whole of the Mosaic law is about what you do and the new covenant is being who we are in Christ and his power in the finished work of the cross and resurrection. The righteousness of the law vs. the righteousness of faith. Romans 10:5 and verse 6-10. 2 Corinthians 3:6; the letter of the Mosaic law vs. the Spirit of the law in Christ Jesus of the cross and resurrection message.

3. Galatians 3:24 says the law of Moses was the schoolmaster to help lead them to being justified by faith. Now the righteousness by faith is not under the leading of the Mosaic law but the endless life of Jesus Christ and his finished work at Calvary. verses 26-28; Hebrews 7:16.

4. Galatians 5:1 says to stand fast in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. This yoke of bondage was the Mosaic law and not just men's commandments. If people will understand how the Mosaic system operated, though holy and good it was very hard in many ways because of so many laws they had to keep or else have specific cursing and judgements of which we do not have under the new covenant. You cannot be justified by keeping the Mosaic law and if you try to be you are fallen from grace and are a debtor to do the whole law Galatians 5:3-4.
We need to be into being who we are and not what we are doing. We do because of who we are.

5. The struggle can be defined as a fight or confrontation which we have because the spirit wars against the flesh. We are in a war and the devil will never stop from tempting us and trying to steal, kill, and destroy us for that is what he desires to do; seeking whom he may devour. 1 Peter 5:8. We are to resist him stedfastly verse 9.
We sometimes fall short of God's grace but God is not necessarily going to zap a christian out because there is always forgiveness if one will repent. God is more interested in your relationship with him. At the same time backsliding for a christian is possible and there must be reconciliation James 5:19-20; 1 John 2:2.
We don't sin because of who we are in Christ. A truthful person doesn't lie because he is not a liar but a truthful person could tell a lie? Are you being or doing as a christian.
Can a christian incur a penalty of some kind? They can because he who sows to the flesh will reap fleshly things and he who sows spiritual will reap spiritual things. 2 Corinthians 9:6; Galatians 6:7-8.
There is such thing as apostasy of a christian for Paul said he could be a castaway and a reprobate if he didn't mortify the members of his body and keep it in subjection. 1 Corinthians 9:27

6. The struggle of sin under the Mosaic law is shown in Romans 7 where the law of sin and death took advantage of the Mosaic law that was holy and good and made them live to the frailty of man and sin. They sinned more than obeyed. In Romans 8:2 the law of sin and death that was in Romans 7 taking advantage of the Mosaic law that was holy and good was done away with in Christ.
One must understand the struggle of the old covenant of law and the better promises of the new covenant in Christ to understand the difference about the subject of sin.

7. Peter said in 1 Peter 4:1 to arm ourselves with the arm of suffering. This is why he said the flesh has ceased from sin? Why? So we wouldn't fulfill the things of the flesh. Paul said we are to abstain from all appearance of evil and not be ignorant of satan's devices and said Walk in the Spirit and you won't fulfill the things of the flesh.
It doesn't mean that we have no opportunity to sin or cannot have the possibility to sin because John said all unrighteousness is sin and that covers a lot of ground.
The conscience of sin should not be a christian's mindset for the bible says in Romans 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation in Christ Jesus. If you are constantly condemned when you fall short you are living with the mentality of legalism. On the other hand if you are backsliding to the point that you change masters again you need to feel condemnation in your conscience before you get into the state of apostasy brought on by the law of hardening of the heart.

8. As a whole christians who serve God are not trying to become a full fledged rebel who apostates.

9. As far as the struggle being over initially happens at the new birth because we are free from sin and we have a new nature.

10. This doesn't mean that we may not have old mindsets satan can use against and he will and try to condemn us and make us feel unworthy etc. because we missed the mark and that is why we need to have the mindset of a warrior and a runner whose goal is finishing in victory. Paul used both of these examples and we need this type of mentality.
Though we may never be sinless in this life because we are not in the eternal perfect state as far as every jot and tittle we do it is not impossible to cease from sin whether it is a short or long period of time. We are not to focus on that because then you get into a law mentality and most likely will start messing up. This life is about holiness and living perfect in love because of who we are in Christ. If you are sin conscience to the excess; another words afraid of falling into sin so you are trying to watch every jot and tittle you will be more focused on your struggle with temptation and sin instead of being a witness and warrior for God.

11. For example, if you say I can't help but sin because I'm human it doesn't negate the fact that we aren't human. But it says to the subconscious that Satan has more power to keep you in sin than to keep you from sin. We have to minimize the risk.

12. If it were left up to the power of the Almighty then we could live sinless from the very day we get saved but it depends on his power in us by our cooperation of obedience. The sinless perfection is detrimental in the extreme. At the same time there are some who have surrendered so completely that the issue of falling into sin is no longer as significant in their lives as before.

13. We will always have a struggle as far as a fight or confrontation in the faith but we do not have to struggle with falling into sin all the time or most of the time, otherwise we most likely will not overcome. Overcome like the warrior in the power of an endless life and not in the self effort and conscience that satan brings in trying to observe every jot and tittle of the Mosaic law which we were never under to begin with.

14. If people are subdued only by the law they are more apt to rebel but if they do out of love they will be more apt to not rebel. Do you want your kids to obey you by being subdued by the law or by law of commandments? I hope this helps because I know it is alot of information. If you have any questions I will be glad to answer them. God bless Jerry kelso

Pentecostal does not necessarily mean Dispensationalism; one of the Great Pentecostals I am familiar with, Ivan Panin, was greatly opposed to Dispensationalism; he said Dispensationalism requires a new Gospel, a new kingdom an a new Bible, and Dispensationalism provides all three.

This Dispensational prose or doctrine is the antithesis of Panin's faith. The only time there is a contest between faith and Law is when men foolishly create the contest; what is faith if it is not faith in the Law also known as the covenant, which includes all things of God.

"Where is the line between struggling with sin and being scrupulous?" There is no line; if one walks with God then sin is absent; struggling with sin is where a person is attempting keeping the Law without God and not in covenant with God. Mary Magdalene sinned but never when she sat at Jesus' feet; struggling with sin is the opposite to struggling with righteousness.
Jesus commanded that we overcome sin as He overcome sin; but what is He talking about, method or perfection?

A person can sit around all day NOT DOING ten things and think he has kept the Law but it is better TO DO infinity minus ten things and at the end of the day ask God if He enjoyed life with the person today and has the Law been profaned?

 

[jerry kelso]

Pentecostal does not necessarily mean Dispensationalism; one of the Great Pentecostals I am familiar with, Ivan Panin, was greatly opposed to Dispensationalism; he said Dispensationalism requires a new Gospel, a new kingdom an a new Bible, and Dispensationalism provides all three.

This Dispensational prose or doctrine is the antithesis of Panin's faith. The only time there is a contest between faith and Law is when men foolishly create the contest; what is faith if it is not faith in the Law also known as the covenant, which includes all things of God.

"Where is the line between struggling with sin and being scrupulous?" There is no line; if one walks with God then sin is absent; struggling with sin is where a person is attempting keeping the Law without God and not in covenant with God. Mary Magdalene sinned but never when she sat at Jesus' feet; struggling with sin is the opposite to struggling with righteousness.
Jesus commanded that we overcome sin as He overcome sin; but what is He talking about, method or perfection?

A person can sit around all day NOT DOING ten things and think he has kept the Law but it is better TO DO infinity minus ten things and at the end of the day ask God if He enjoyed life with the person today and has the Law been profaned?

sparow,

1. First of all, I believe in dispensations concerning a stewardship under the covenants. This was in every age.
I do not believe everything a dispensationalist believes and I understand how a strict layout according to every jot and tittle of the method can go to the extreme.

2. Paul was given the dispensation of the grace of God. The mystery of the church was revealed to all the holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit in the church era not under the law and other ages which is recorded in verse 4.

3. The jews knew the gentiles were to be saved and they were always proselyted until Peter got the vision of the clean and the unclean and Paul got the revelation in Arabia and after. Acts 2:10; Acts 10:1-48; Galatians 1:16-18; 2:1-2.

4. A new gospel, a new kingdom and a new bible is not accurate to the scripture but his misunderstanding and terms in his hermeneutics.
There are always extremes to different doctrines for the most part and this is how we get wrong doctrine.

5. There is no new gospel substance wise, just a different revelation to come to God for the old covenant jews and the new covenant believers of the church of jews and gentiles as one.
Circumcision was the sign of the covenant and not to be obeyed under the new covenant Acts 15:5-11 and Jesus was born of a woman made under the law Galatians 4:4.
The circumcision of the new covenant is not made with by hands Colossians 2:11.

6. The gospel of the KoH was about the physical kingdom promised to the jews in their part of the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants concerning the land and the kingdom as head of the nations Genesis 12-15 Matthew 5:5; Isaiah 9:6-7. Israel was backslidden in their covenant of law and were to repent under the spiritual aspect of the KoG, which was the condition of being blessed instead of cursed under the law and to be saved for entrance into the KoH.
The law and the prophets prophesied until John because the reality was there to fulfill the prophecies. Jesus never taught the death and resurrection directly to the jews as we are told to believe. John 6:53-70 and Matthew 16:21-23 was after the jews had fully rejected him Matthew 23:37-39 and those who followed Christ including the 12 disciples. Even after the resurrection Jesus had to expound on the scriptures about the death and resurrection. Luke 24:44-47. John the Baptist baptized Christ for him to be manifested as Messiah to Israel John 1:31. They were required to repent to enter the physical KoH Matthew 4:17. They were to be born again by water and the Spirit according to the cross which was prophetic to the cross. It was automatic because of Christ the Messiah and Son of God who had power to forgive sins. John 3:5.
To a jew the reference to water was the Red Sea deliverance and the second time was by the Spirit they would be saved as in 1 Corinthians 10:1-2; Ezekiel 36:25-27.

7. The death and resurrection was prophesied in Genesis 3:15 but was not understood in that day and the law of Moses was veiled in types and shadows and they understood about a sacrifice but they missed the suffering Savior of Isaiah 53 in Jesus day because they wanted a conquering Savior without repenting which was the condition of any covenant in the bible.
Also, the eyes of many jews that didn't want to accept the truth were blinded Matthew 13:15. Some accepted this message verse 16.
The jews knew about a sacrifice and Zacharias prophesied of Israel's deliverance as the horn of the salvation to be saved from their enemies and to remember his covenant made with them which concerned the kingdom as the head of the nations. Isaiah 2:2-4; Luke 2:67-74. Even Simeon was not understood about the fall and rising again of many in Israel and the sword shall pierce through thy own soul slso the that thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

8. The death, burial, and resurrection is what a christian has to believe directly Romans 10:9-10. Jesus didn't teach his death, burial and resurrection for a jew to be saved but only that they believe by faith in him. Every age had to believe to be saved by grace through faith because it took unmerited favor for God to even think of saving man at all in any age. The revelations are different in each age because of gradual revelation and the process of redemption playing out.

9. The bottom line result is either you are serving God or not is correct but too general to understand why that we do not live under the old covenant of law as a rule of life and why we do under the new covenant as a rule of life.

10. You are wrong about Panins antitheses of faith according to the law. This shows he didn't understand the auspices of the law of Moses concerning the rule of life in that theocracy and it's difference to the new covenant.
The bible states the law of Moses was Holy and Good but it had a weakness; not in the command itself of the moral but that it could not save a person or help them to attain unto the commandment because it took an endless life. The sacrificial system and the blessing and cursing system and the civil law that caused self effort and subduing and the reason they disobeyed to begin with. Romans 7 shows the law of sin and death took advantage of the Mosaic law's rule of life and made them live to the frailty of man and made them sin. Romans 8:2 the law of sin and death from Romans 7 that took advantage of the law of Moses that was holy and good was done away with by the law of the Spirit.

11. We are to overcome sin but it doesn't mean that we will unless we are abiding totally in the Spirit. Galatians 5:16-18. If you are led by the Spirit ye are not under the law. This law was the law of Moses as a rule of life. It can't be the moral laws within themselves because right is right and wrong is wrong and sin is sin before, during and after the law.
The Mary illustration is your deducing and is fine because the inference would be abiding in Christ in his presence and not fulfilling the things of the flesh.
Overcoming sin in the old covenant was by being led by the schoolmaster the law Galatians 3:25. We overcome sin because of Christ an endless life, not what we do to attain but being who we are in Christ is why we do. Abraham was justified by grace in Romans 4 and not of works in accepting salvation but he was justified by works to show he really had faith because of who he was in Christ. James 2.

12. Today, we are under grace but we still have laws as a rule of life contained in the new covenant according to the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. The new second covenant replaced the first old covenant. Hebrews 8:6-7. One has to understand the difference between the old and new covenants as a rule of life and not because it has similar things in the new as the old.
If one is justified by the law of Moses they are fallen from grace which has justification of works as a fruit of who we are in Christ and not what we do trying to be subdued by the law or working up to it in self effort. This happens with wrong understanding. Learn the difference. Jerry kelso

 

[sparow]

sparow,

1. First of all, I believe in dispensations concerning a stewardship under the covenants. This was in every age.
I do not believe everything a dispensationalist believes and I understand how a strict layout according to every jot and tittle of the method can go to the extreme.

2. Paul was given the dispensation of the grace of God. The mystery of the church was revealed to all the holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit in the church era not under the law and other ages which is recorded in verse 4.

3. The jews knew the gentiles were to be saved and they were always proselyted until Peter got the vision of the clean and the unclean and Paul got the revelation in Arabia and after. Acts 2:10; Acts 10:1-48; Galatians 1:16-18; 2:1-2.

4. A new gospel, a new kingdom and a new bible is not accurate to the scripture but his misunderstanding and terms in his hermeneutics.
There are always extremes to different doctrines for the most part and this is how we get wrong doctrine.

5. There is no new gospel substance wise, just a different revelation to come to God for the old covenant jews and the new covenant believers of the church of jews and gentiles as one.
Circumcision was the sign of the covenant and not to be obeyed under the new covenant Acts 15:5-11 and Jesus was born of a woman made under the law Galatians 4:4.
The circumcision of the new covenant is not made with by hands Colossians 2:11.

6. The gospel of the KoH was about the physical kingdom promised to the jews in their part of the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants concerning the land and the kingdom as head of the nations Genesis 12-15 Matthew 5:5; Isaiah 9:6-7. Israel was backslidden in their covenant of law and were to repent under the spiritual aspect of the KoG, which was the condition of being blessed instead of cursed under the law and to be saved for entrance into the KoH.
The law and the prophets prophesied until John because the reality was there to fulfill the prophecies. Jesus never taught the death and resurrection directly to the jews as we are told to believe. John 6:53-70 and Matthew 16:21-23 was after the jews had fully rejected him Matthew 23:37-39 and those who followed Christ including the 12 disciples. Even after the resurrection Jesus had to expound on the scriptures about the death and resurrection. Luke 24:44-47. John the Baptist baptized Christ for him to be manifested as Messiah to Israel John 1:31. They were required to repent to enter the physical KoH Matthew 4:17. They were to be born again by water and the Spirit according to the cross which was prophetic to the cross. It was automatic because of Christ the Messiah and Son of God who had power to forgive sins. John 3:5.
To a jew the reference to water was the Red Sea deliverance and the second time was by the Spirit they would be saved as in 1 Corinthians 10:1-2; Ezekiel 36:25-27.

7. The death and resurrection was prophesied in Genesis 3:15 but was not understood in that day and the law of Moses was veiled in types and shadows and they understood about a sacrifice but they missed the suffering Savior of Isaiah 53 in Jesus day because they wanted a conquering Savior without repenting which was the condition of any covenant in the bible.
Also, the eyes of many jews that didn't want to accept the truth were blinded Matthew 13:15. Some accepted this message verse 16.
The jews knew about a sacrifice and Zacharias prophesied of Israel's deliverance as the horn of the salvation to be saved from their enemies and to remember his covenant made with them which concerned the kingdom as the head of the nations. Isaiah 2:2-4; Luke 2:67-74. Even Simeon was not understood about the fall and rising again of many in Israel and the sword shall pierce through thy own soul slso the that thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

8. The death, burial, and resurrection is what a christian has to believe directly Romans 10:9-10. Jesus didn't teach his death, burial and resurrection for a jew to be saved but only that they believe by faith in him. Every age had to believe to be saved by grace through faith because it took unmerited favor for God to even think of saving man at all in any age. The revelations are different in each age because of gradual revelation and the process of redemption playing out.

9. The bottom line result is either you are serving God or not is correct but too general to understand why that we do not live under the old covenant of law as a rule of life and why we do under the new covenant as a rule of life.

10. You are wrong about Panins antitheses of faith according to the law. This shows he didn't understand the auspices of the law of Moses concerning the rule of life in that theocracy and it's difference to the new covenant.
The bible states the law of Moses was Holy and Good but it had a weakness; not in the command itself of the moral but that it could not save a person or help them to attain unto the commandment because it took an endless life. The sacrificial system and the blessing and cursing system and the civil law that caused self effort and subduing and the reason they disobeyed to begin with. Romans 7 shows the law of sin and death took advantage of the Mosaic law's rule of life and made them live to the frailty of man and made them sin. Romans 8:2 the law of sin and death from Romans 7 that took advantage of the law of Moses that was holy and good was done away with by the law of the Spirit.

11. We are to overcome sin but it doesn't mean that we will unless we are abiding totally in the Spirit. Galatians 5:16-18. If you are led by the Spirit ye are not under the law. This law was the law of Moses as a rule of life. It can't be the moral laws within themselves because right is right and wrong is wrong and sin is sin before, during and after the law.
The Mary illustration is your deducing and is fine because the inference would be abiding in Christ in his presence and not fulfilling the things of the flesh.
Overcoming sin in the old covenant was by being led by the schoolmaster the law Galatians 3:25. We overcome sin because of Christ an endless life, not what we do to attain but being who we are in Christ is why we do. Abraham was justified by grace in Romans 4 and not of works in accepting salvation but he was justified by works to show he really had faith because of who he was in Christ. James 2.

12. Today, we are under grace but we still have laws as a rule of life contained in the new covenant according to the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. The new second covenant replaced the first old covenant. Hebrews 8:6-7. One has to understand the difference between the old and new covenants as a rule of life and not because it has similar things in the new as the old.
If one is justified by the law of Moses they are fallen from grace which has justification of works as a fruit of who we are in Christ and not what we do trying to be subdued by the law or working up to it in self effort. This happens with wrong understanding. Learn the difference. Jerry kelso

Dispensationalists speak a unique jargon that makes communication with non-dispensationalists difficult.
1. I do not know what you mean.
2. Dispensations are not mentioned in the Bible. I don't accept that God gave Paul anything. The word "grace" is used by the translators of the KJV 28 times in the OT, 39 times in the NT and 89 times in Paul's epistles but never does grace refer to a dispensation or doctrine. Panin was refuting Dispensationalism when he said, "In Acts 20:24 Paul speaks of the Gospel of the Grace of God being his commission from the Lord. Though in his Epistles he uses the word Gospel sixty times (out of the seventy six in the NT), he calls it only in this place the Gospel of the Grace of God, and this particular description thereof is used nowhere else in the NT. The expression is peculiar not only to Paul, but is peculiar to this particular passage. In the seventy four occurrences the Gospel is described in seventeen different ways. In this place alone is it spoken of as the Gospel of the Grace of God." Unquote.
3. Acts 2:10 refers to converted Jews (under Judaism, Judaism didn't exist then but you know what I mean) who understood the apostles in their own language. I am not sure what point you are making with Acts 10., which deals with the Law and the covenant going to gentiles and in ways gentiles who enter into the covenant are equal to Jews and Israelites who enter into the covenant; but in Rev and the New Jerusalem gentiles are only allowed in the outer court of the temple.
4. Panin wasn't talking about extremes he was talking about opposites, with God or against God. Only The Father has authority and only Jesus is the teacher; there is only one destination when we follow men and that is the ditch. I like Panin, he wouldn't touch a doctrine of men in place of what God has given, with a 40 foot pole; this makes him rare. He was a Pentecostal preacher who was fluent in the Biblical languages, had Harvard degrees in English literature and mathematics. I recommend you read two of Panin's booklets "The Gospel and The Kingdom" by Ivan Panin, other authors have books with the same name and also "Once in Grace Always in Grace". They are sold in Canada where Panin had his church and I have found these searching the web.
5. I don't trust Paul's epistles at all and have serious doubts about circumcision; had Paul been given a wrap in Revelation and had he not preached a different Gospel to Jesus I may have considered differently.
6. There are not two Gospels, one for Jews and one for gentiles. Panin demonstrates this better then I can.
7..8...
9. The OT was finalised 2000 years ago in order for the new to come. But the OT covenant was not a waist of time; it taught us about God and what He requires of men. God's Law without change still defines the New Covenant; there are no scriptures that says other wise; this was established at the Council of Trent and I believe the Catholic Church still offers $6000 to anyone who can prove from scripture that the Sabbath is changed from Saturday to Sunday (this is used to demonstrate the Churches authority in that the Church made the change without God's approval). If the Sabbath is still scripturally valid so to is the whole Law because one cannot keep the Sabbath Holy with out keeping all the Law.
10. God has said his Law is perfect; it is unlikely God would be wrong or that other scripture would say otherwise. You seem to be confusing what I have said with what I have said Panin said; you should read Panin for yourself. Rule of life is a term I have never heard before, it doesn't appear to be scriptural. Israel was judged by the Law (Jesus Christ before Abraham) over and over and over.
11. The law always has be spiritual; not only does scripture say but the Jews of old when a scroll became unusable they would give the scroll a formal funeral as though it were a living person who died. You say Law of Moses but it really is the Law of God and the covenant of God, Moses was merely an administrator. Salvation by works verses salvation by faith is Roman Catholic/Protestant apologetics, nothing to do with God at all.
12. Abraham was justified by Jesus Christ, remember Jesus said, "before Abraham was I am" and Jesus is graceful but He is also God with us, stumbling block and the Law stretched tight. The covenant you refer to is fiction; grace is a cheap condescending replacement for God's power and authority and there is no salvation in it. One is justified by Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ is the Law of God not nailed to the cross.

 

[jerry kelso]

Dispensationalists speak a unique jargon that makes communication with non-dispensationalists difficult.
1. I do not know what you mean.
2. Dispensations are not mentioned in the Bible. I don't accept that God gave Paul anything. The word "grace" is used by the translators of the KJV 28 times in the OT, 39 times in the NT and 89 times in Paul's epistles but never does grace refer to a dispensation or doctrine. Panin was refuting Dispensationalism when he said, "In Acts 20:24 Paul speaks of the Gospel of the Grace of God being his commission from the Lord. Though in his Epistles he uses the word Gospel sixty times (out of the seventy six in the NT), he calls it only in this place the Gospel of the Grace of God, and this particular description thereof is used nowhere else in the NT. The expression is peculiar not only to Paul, but is peculiar to this particular passage. In the seventy four occurrences the Gospel is described in seventeen different ways. In this place alone is it spoken of as the Gospel of the Grace of God." Unquote.
3. Acts 2:10 refers to converted Jews (under Judaism, Judaism didn't exist then but you know what I mean) who understood the apostles in their own language. I am not sure what point you are making with Acts 10., which deals with the Law and the covenant going to gentiles and in ways gentiles who enter into the covenant are equal to Jews and Israelites who enter into the covenant; but in Rev and the New Jerusalem gentiles are only allowed in the outer court of the temple.
4. Panin wasn't talking about extremes he was talking about opposites, with God or against God. Only The Father has authority and only Jesus is the teacher; there is only one destination when we follow men and that is the ditch. I like Panin, he wouldn't touch a doctrine of men in place of what God has given, with a 40 foot pole; this makes him rare. He was a Pentecostal preacher who was fluent in the Biblical languages, had Harvard degrees in English literature and mathematics. I recommend you read two of Panin's booklets "The Gospel and The Kingdom" by Ivan Panin, other authors have books with the same name and also "Once in Grace Always in Grace". They are sold in Canada where Panin had his church and I have found these searching the web.
5. I don't trust Paul's epistles at all and have serious doubts about circumcision; had Paul been given a wrap in Revelation and had he not preached a different Gospel to Jesus I may have considered differently.
6. There are not two Gospels, one for Jews and one for gentiles. Panin demonstrates this better then I can.
7..8...
9. The OT was finalised 2000 years ago in order for the new to come. But the OT covenant was not a waist of time; it taught us about God and what He requires of men. God's Law without change still defines the New Covenant; there are no scriptures that says other wise; this was established at the Council of Trent and I believe the Catholic Church still offers $6000 to anyone who can prove from scripture that the Sabbath is changed from Saturday to Sunday (this is used to demonstrate the Churches authority in that the Church made the change without God's approval). If the Sabbath is still scripturally valid so to is the whole Law because one cannot keep the Sabbath Holy with out keeping all the Law.
10. God has said his Law is perfect; it is unlikely God would be wrong or that other scripture would say otherwise. You seem to be confusing what I have said with what I have said Panin said; you should read Panin for yourself. Rule of life is a term I have never heard before, it doesn't appear to be scriptural. Israel was judged by the Law (Jesus Christ before Abraham) over and over and over.
11. The law always has be spiritual; not only does scripture say but the Jews of old when a scroll became unusable they would give the scroll a formal funeral as though it were a living person who died. You say Law of Moses but it really is the Law of God and the covenant of God, Moses was merely an administrator. Salvation by works verses salvation by faith is Roman Catholic/Protestant apologetics, nothing to do with God at all.
12. Abraham was justified by Jesus Christ, remember Jesus said, "before Abraham was I am" and Jesus is graceful but He is also God with us, stumbling block and the Law stretched tight. The covenant you refer to is fiction; grace is a cheap condescending replacement for God's power and authority and there is no salvation in it. One is justified by Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ is the Law of God not nailed to the cross.

sparow,

1. I am sorry but you need to get out of panin and into the bible.

2. You don't know because you are into panin and not the bible. You say dispensation is not mentioned in the bible. Once again you are wrong; Ephesians 3:2; If ye have heard of the DISPENSATION OF THE GRACE OF GOD WHICH IS GIVEN ME TO YOU-WARD. NOTICE THE WORD DISPENSATION IS IN THERE THOUGH YOU SAID IT WASN'T.
To say God didn't give Paul anything is ludicrous and without warrant. The DISPENSATION OF THE GRACE OF GOD WAS GIVEN TO HIM BY CHRIST. You are wrong again.

3. GRACE IS NOT TRANSLATED TO A DISPENSATION OR A DOCTRINE? ARE YOU KIDDING ME? WHAT BIBLE DO YOU READ AND DID PANIN TELL YOU THAT TOO? Grace is a part of redemption and yes it is a doctrine and it is used in Ephesians 3:2 and the word dispensation means stewardship. Even reformed teachers know that God dealt with men in different ages in different ways according to covenants. They have to agree in a stewardship or an economy is the different ages of time. They may not agree with some things or utilizing it as a system but even I don't agree with everything dispensationalists say just like I am sure there are people in your belief that wouldn't agree with everything you say.

4. Acts 20:24 was Paul's commission just as much as Ephesians 3:2. His commission of the grace of God was mainly to the gentiles because of the jews resistance to his message Acts 28:25-28. Peter's ministry was primarily to the jews but this didn't mean on either Paul's or Peter's that the grace of God was exclusive to one or the other. The grace of God was about the new covenant of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ as the basis for salvation. There was grace in every age as well as there was law but under different covenants. The age of law of Moses was a covenant and a dispensation of law. The jews covenant was a theocracy and the law was a covenant and a dispensation. Every age was a dispensation.
The gospel of grace is redemption which was unmerited favor God gave in each age in a different revelation that was gradual.

5. Acts 2:10 were gentiles proselyted into Judaism before Christ died. This is what the jews did in the old testament times. Even the 1st 8-10 years the gentiles were most like and this is why Peter had a hard time understanding the vision of the clean and the unclean. Acts 10. Jews under the old testament law were not to fellowship with gentiles because they were unclean but God told him to not call unclean what he called clean Acts 10:28.
In Revelation 11 it's talking about the gentiles of the Antichrist armies will occupy the outer court. This has nothing to do with the new Jerusalem which is recorded in Revelation 21.

6. Jesus has all authority and power in heaven and earth. Matthew 28:18. This doesn't mean there is no authority figures in the church or anywhere else. It also doesn't mean he is the only teacher or miracle worker but he is our source for all those things for he said greater works we would do than him. Jesus was the greatest teacher but he had a specific mission under the Mosaic law to the jews and that was to fulfill the law of Moses and then it his death would satisfy the penalty for sin and the law of Moses as a rule of life would be abolished for it had some weaknesses and the new covenant had better promises and it was all because of Jesus Christ the great teacher of the Mosaic law, and the sinless sacrificial lamb who gave his life for the world that they might be saved. Don't make Christ so one dimensional for he is the creator of the redemptive plan with the covenants before Abraham and after and during the law and after the law with the new covenant. The one destination to heaven is through the shed blood of Jesus Christ for without the blood there is no remission of sins. Matthew 26-28; John 14:6.

7. I am sorry but panin didn't know what he was talking about and if he believed in once saved, always saved he didn't on that either. I will be glad to look at those books. It doesn't matter how many degrees one has for down through the years preachers with all kinds of degrees on both sides of the issue never agreed. It doesn't matter how educated one is for they can have tunnel vision their whole life if they have the wrong hermeneutics.

8. For the fact you think Paul preached a different message than Jesus to give the perception that the bible is contradictory is ridiculous and it implies that you don't believe the bible is inerrant.
The apostle Paul was a jew and was perfect to the law above most of his peers outside of the fact that he was killing christians despite thinking he was being a God pleaser.
Circumcision was a sign of the old covenant so he knew what he was talking about between the physical and the spiritual.
Paul preached Jesus Christ and him crucified 1 Corinthians 1:17-21; 15:1-4 and 1 Corinthians 1:22-23. If you think preaching Christ crucified is wrong and is not what Jesus told his disciples then you need to read your bible. Luke 24:24-27 tells the disciples what they had to preach that was prophesied in the old testament. It was the same gospel as Paul preached and this is what Peter and the disciples kept getting into trouble in the early church by the jewish leaders who were trying to keep them under the law of Moses and not preaching the death and resurrection message. Acts 4:2.

9. I never said there was more than one gospel. I said the gospel was the same concerning redemption about a sacrifice and it was through types and shadows and because of the condition of Israel in Jesus day and because he didn't teach the death, burial and resurrection message directly for them to believe in to be saved the revelation was different.
Isaiah 53 was much plainer about the Messiah growing up as a tender plant and being despised and rejected of men, smitten of God, wounded for our transgressions etc. This is why he had to go back and explain what the law and the prophets said about him and his death and resurrection and this was after he had risen and was fixing to go back to heaven Luke 24:24-27. Read your bible for goodness sakes. The substance of redemption was always about the sacrifice which would be the death and resurrection of Christ but one has to understand gradual revelation and what Christ taught of how a jew was to be saved in his day.
Because you misunderstand the context of John 6:53-70 and Matthew 16:21-23 that is if you understand it at all you would understand that it is the revelation of how to be saved and not the substance of the gospel itself concerning the sacrifice of the savior and the cross. You can't refute this and neither can panin.

10. As far as the sabbath changed to sunday is not necessarily true because everyday can be kept as a sabbath. The reason most say it was changed to sunday is because of the resurrection. That is another subject in itself.

11. The things you are saying and what you are saying that panin says are gross misunderstandings of the scriptures in the big picture. The law was holy and good but it was also considered wrath and not of faith and yet there was faith in the old testament. One has to understand correct exegesis to understand scriptures that sound contradictory which really are paradoxes.

12. To say grace is not in salvation is complete stupidity of a statement. Who do you think requires faith and imparts faith? Jesus Christ.
You can believe whatever you want but you have no ground to stand on biblically and that is why you cannot answer adequately refute it.
Do you understand what context means? If you do tell me and explain the context of 1 Corinthians 15:29 when Paul said, I die daily and give other scriptures that will harmonize with it. Good luck! Jerry kelso