Ed1wolf
Well-Known Member
- Dec 26, 2002
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Where?Well, exactly.
ed: I think I have disproven it.
ia: Ed, you have done a magnificent job of disproving your own arguments. No, I'm afraid you haven't managed to disprove Euthyphro's Dilemma, and I very much doubt you ever will. But you have, in giving us flawed arguments that we can expose, done a fine job of exposing the Christian inability to handle it.
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Where did I fail?ed: If I can demonstrate that the Christian God probably exists, then we can ask those that know Him if He is good. So far you have not demonstrated that it is fallacious.
ia: No, the fallacy is yours. you say "If I can demonstrate that the Christian God probably exists." Fine. Well, if you can, then you have something to work with. Since you have tried and failed to do so, I think it's safe to assume that you can't.
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From my relationship and others relationship with Him just like any other person.ed: Huh? You have asked me multiple times how do I know if God is good. God commands an act because it is morally good. And the origination of the good that He commands comes from His character.
ia: Which brings us back to Euthyphro's Dilemma, the argument you claim to have solved. As we can see here, you haven't even addressed it. All you've done it pushed it a bit further down the road.
You say that good originates from God's character? Okay. How do you know that it is good? You attempt to answer this a little further down and, as we shall see, your attempt does not end well.
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No, I said thru my experience with Him He has proved Himself good.ed: By having a relationship with the Being that is goodness itself, ie God.
ia: You haven't yet proved that God is good, only asserted it.
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No, I said we can determine if God is good by His actions. But if you base your determination of good entirely on your own then you run into trouble because you have no objective basis for morality, it is purely on emotional preference. Only if you look to God and His moral law then you have an objective basis for morality and can lead you to the best and most fulfilling life.ed: No, it is not circular because we find out God is good by experience and His example on earth.
ia: Ah! Most interesting. So, you're saying that we can determine what is good by how we interact with it and our experience with it in this reality that we call "life on Earth." Fine. I agree.
The problem is, you have now said that we can determine goodness by looking at the results of our actions. In other words, no God is needed.
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That is part of it, but also once you get to know Him you recognize His goodness just like any other person. No circularity there.ed: No, I said God commands something because it is good, and that goodness that the command is based on is His character.
ia: In other words, circular reasoning. God commands good things, and we know they are good because they were commanded by God.
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No, we know He is good because we can recognize His goodness.ed: No, since God is the creator of everything that exists, then He created our moral conscience by definition. So ultimately EVERYTHING circles back to God. Therefore, being circular in this case is irrelevant and true by definition.
ia: But we are still left with an unanswered question: how do we know that God is good? You haven't even attempted to answer it, except by saying that we know God is good because He's God.
The only way that you can know if something is good or not is by assessing it against some standard. And if you are judging God as "good" (and remember, all judging means in this case is assessing, or forming an opinion, not passing judgement on somebody) then you must have some standard to measure them against. You cannot use God as a standard, because that is the thing that you are assessing. Essentially, you would be saying "God is good because He's God," which is, as I've pointed out a number of times now, circular reasoning.
No, at that stage it is irrelevant where your moral conscience comes from. You use it everyday irrespective of where it comes from. It is the only way you can determine what is morally good or not until you learn more about morality from God Himself when you come to know Him.ia: And if you insist that your moral conscience comes from God, then you are unable to use that to measure His goodness as well, since it was provided by Him and you have not yet proved that His goodness is, well, good.
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