Where's God?

[doubtingmerle]

My point is that Moses revealed knowledge that no one else had at the time and did not until over 3000 years later it was discovered by science.

Please give me an example of knowledge that Moses revealed that others did not know for 3000 years.

Her only mistake is saying that that one statement proves the Koran was Gods words, I would agree that it may be evidence that the Koran is Gods words. But the Koran has many more serious problems that point to it not being from God.

Uh no, Muslims do not have just one claim that there is modern science in the Quran. They have many such claims. See 13 Scientific Facts in the Holy Quran - The Muslim Vibe and The Science of the Quran: Proving God's Existence through Established Modern Science: Hassan, Ahmad: 9780615499840: Amazon.com: Books .

But you and I can see through their claims that these ancient words are miraculous, yes?

The same thing applies to Genesis.

Maybe, but I gave some evidence for a global flood earlier in this thread though I admit there is not a great deal of evidence because it was primarily a supernatural act.

Evidence? All you said is that there was an ice age 2 million years ago. Somehow you attributed that to a global flood. But I pointed out that there have been regular ice ages, and that Genesis clearly does not indicate Noah lived 2 million years ago.

So the fact that Genesis says there was a global flood in modern times is just one example of a glaring error.

And by the way, there could have been no global flood 2 million years ago either. Such an event would have totally destroyed the global ecology. I understand you are a biologist, so you must surely know that.

For good measure, here is another scientific error: Genesis says plants were created before the sun. We know this is not the way it happened.

Some scholars believe the number of Isrealites is a copying error, numbers in hebrew are very easy to miscopy.

Ah, now we have copying errors. So we are looking at a book that has many errors. We can't tell if those errors were in the original, since we don't have them. But the book we have has errors. Good to know.

But even if there were millions, nomads which is what they were in the desert dont leave many permanent artifacts after 3500 years.

Uh, if a camel does number two in the desert, it stays for centuries. If many people had wandered in the desert for 40 years, there would be evidence.

No, it is a rabbinic hyperbole, He is teaching an attitude not meant to be literal, ancient historians know this is how ancient jewish rabbis taught.

Ah, so when I read a verse that says to give to everybody that asks of me, that is just rabbinic hyperbole?

And when I read that gays are wrong, that is hyperbole too?

And when I read that we can't wear clothes made of two materials, uh, hyperbole, yes?

How can you claim that there is an absolute morality, as revealed in the Bible, when it includes rabbinic hyperbole? Wouldn't a three-person God have been able to keep that out of his/their book?

 

[cvanwey]

Hello @doubtingmerle

Did you ever get the question answered? You know, the one in the OP?

Where's God?

I'd sure like to know what take-away you have come with, thus far?

I have to admit, I have left this thread for a while. But it looks as though theists cannot seem to tell us; unless I missed the ultimate post somewhere?

 

[doubtingmerle]

Hello @doubtingmerle

Did you ever get the question answered? You know, the one in the OP?

Where's God?

I'd sure like to know what take-away you have come with, thus far?

I have to admit, I have left this thread for a while. But it looks as though theists cannot seem to tell us; unless I missed the ultimate post somewhere?

Yes, there was a big struggle, but no good answer. We were told that God wants them to suffer in order to bring a greater good, but he doesn't really want them to suffer to bring about that good. Round and round it went. The thread drifted off into a number of different subjects and at this point I am just going along for the ride, wherever it takes us.

 

[Ed1wolf]

How many times has our sitting President been taken to court and convicted of crime? Zero. That is because Presidents generally are not prosecuted. Impeachment is the legal remedy, and that has been done. Of course there was no way that the Republican Senate was going to convict him, but that in no way clears him of the charges of a crime in his dealing with Ukraine.

Since part of the President's job is to enforce the law, how is his dealing with Ukraine a crime?

 

[Ed1wolf]

and Jeremiah's prophecies came true.
So did Nostradamus's. Provided of course, we are creative enough in our interpretations of Nostradamus or Jeremiah.

But I'll play along. Please give me an example of a prophecy in Jeremiah that indicates this must be God's words.

He correctly predicted that King Zedekiah would be captured by the Babylonians but not killed. Among many other detailed predictions that came true. Most of Jeremiahs predictions were more detailed and explicit than Nostradamus.

 

[Ed1wolf]

You write this in response to, "If an ancient book says we need to submit as slaves to masters that beat us, then let's let wisdom override the ancient rules."

The Bible says servants are to submit to masters. For instance:

Colossians 3:22 Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God:​

What kind of a servant-master relationship is he talking about? See Luke.

Luke 12:47-48 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes...
​

So we find that even if a loyal servant honestly thought he was doing what the master wanted, but was mistaken, in those days it was assumed he would be beaten.

Even you have admitted that, in those days, it was common for masters to beat their servants. And yet the New Testament repeatedly tells these servants to submit to their masters.

Once again, I say, if an ancient book says we need to submit as slaves to masters that beat us, then let's let wisdom override the ancient rules.

No, this was not meant to describe an ideal master servant relationship, it was a parable that was meant to tell us to be prepared for the Second Coming of Christ.

 

[Ed1wolf]

It doesn't seem to matter what the thread is about. We always end up talking about Hitler, the cause of the Big Bang, and gay sex.

Although I am totally heterosexual, I know people that are gay and honestly care for their partners. What scientific evidence do you have that they do not care for their partners?

Engaging in a behavior that has a pretty significant risk of causing a serious physical or mental illness to your partner is not very caring. This has been confirmed by the scientific studies I provided earlier.

 

[Ed1wolf]

I seek to broaden my understanding of many things. Scientific studies are one of the ways I find generally reliable. Could you direct me to the scientific evidence that you mention?

Same-Sex Sexual Behavior and Psychiatric Disorders: Findings From the Netherlands Mental Health Survey and Incidence Study (NEMESIS) | Psychiatry | JAMA Network

 

[Ed1wolf]

Ed: Trump commanded the states to do everything Fauci said.

dm: You are kinda beating a dead horse here. Trump has been resoundingly defeated at the polls. He will soon be gone.

Maybe, he still has some cases being considered by a few courts regarding voter fraud. Of which, there is a great deal of evidence though it has yet to be determined whether there was enough to change the election result.

dm: Trump has consistently undermined Fauci and threatened to fire him. See Trump says Fauci 'made a lot of mistakes' (nbcnews.com).

No, he hasnt undermined him. Fauci has made several mistakes, first he said masks were not needed then he said they were. He even said it was ok to engage in sex with strangers on the internet. Multiple scientific studies have provided contradictory assertions about masks. 86 percent of people that contracted COVID wore masks all the time. PBS a few years ago in a documentary about the flu virus said wearing a mask to stop a virus is like using chicken wire to stop mosquitoes from getting in your house. So no one has all the answers to this virus not even Fauci.

ed: Some [states] did and some didnt. But that is the way a nation with states rights works.

dm: The states that had the worst practices were primarily red states who did what Trump and his supporters wanted. It is odd that you would rewrite history such that Trump was the one pushing for safe measures.

He was he was the first to recommend stopping flights from China, possibly saving millions. Even Fauci complimented TRump for doing this. But some states thought it was worth the risk to allow people to maintain their lively hood and visit family members during an epidemic that only killed 0.03% of people that contracted it. Especially when suicide rates surpassed the death rates of the disease.

ed: The democrats claimed Trump did nothing to stop so they thought there was going to be 2 million deaths.
dm; I never heard them say Trump did nothing. The claim is that his response was inadequate, not that he did nothing.
Warm weather greatly reduced the infection rate in the summer, as many had predicted. With the return of cold weather, we could well be headed to 2 million deaths in America.

Doubtful, it is already mid December and we have not reached even 300,000.

ed: But contrary to their lies, he did plenty including telling everyone to follow Fauci's advice. After a few months the number of deaths caused by the lockdown itself exceeded the number of Covid deaths so that is why he started opening the economy.

dm: Please prove your assertion that more than 267,000 people have died in America due to the lockdown. Are you just making stuff up?

Add up all the suicides, drug overdoses, and failures to go to doctors appointments for life threatening illnesses.

ed: If he had kept the lockdown nationwide it would have been even a greater disaster.
dm: I agree that the lockdown was too intense. We could have gotten by with less extreme lockdown measures if masks wearing and distancing had been better practiced.

Now that the hospitals are filling up, we may be forced into more extreme lockdown measures.
The chance of death by the disease is less than 0.03 percent.

The United States has had 13 million confirmed cases and 267,000 deaths. Do the math. That is 2%.

That is still extremely unlikely and there is strong evidence the number of deaths have been inflated.

dm: If 1/3 of the 330 million people in the USA become confirmed cases, and we continue with the same death rate, we end up with 2.6 million deaths in the USA. If 2/3 become confirmed cases, double that. If people start getting COVID multiple times, you may need to double it and then double it again.

And if the hospitals get overloaded, people could die in the hospital admission rooms waiting for a room.

Thank goodness, we will soon have a competent president.

Only 4 people on the entire planet have gotten it more than one time. He is going to keep Fauci, so the measures are unlikely to change signficantly unless he violates the Constitution like his mentor Obama did multiple times.

 

[doubtingmerle]

Since part of the President's job is to enforce the law, how is his dealing with Ukraine a crime?

The evidence indicates there was a quid pro quo, in which Trump held back aid that had been appropriated by congress in order to get a political favor. That is a crime.

 

[doubtingmerle]

No, this was not meant to describe an ideal master servant relationship, it was a parable that was meant to tell us to be prepared for the Second Coming of Christ.

I didn't say Luke 12:47-48 was meant to describe an ideal master relationship.

What I did say is that Luke indicates that, in those days, masters commonly beat their servants. And the Bible commands those servants to stay with masters that beat them. In my opinion, that might not be a wise thing for servants to do.

You ignore the direct command in Luke 6:30 to give to everyone that asks of you, because that would not be a wise thing to do.

If you can ignore the literal interpretation of Luke 6:30, why cannot servants that are being beat ignore the literal interpretation of Colossians 3:22?

 

[doubtingmerle]

Engaging in a behavior that has a pretty significant risk of causing a serious physical or mental illness to your partner is not very caring. This has been confirmed by the scientific studies I provided earlier.

How does a monogamous homosexual relationship cause serious physical illness?

And if a person is gay, I find they have better mental health by being true to themselves and a partner in a loving relationship, rather than pretending to be otherwise.

There are a lot of reasons gays may have mental health issues, including the negative reactions of society. What you would need to prove is that staying "in the closet" yields better mental health than being true to yourself. You have not done that. See Mental Health for Gay and Bisexual Men | CDC .

 

[doubtingmerle]

there is a great deal of evidence though it has yet to be determined whether there was enough to change the election result.

Uh, there have been multiple accusations of voter fraud tried in court and thrown out. There simply is no real evidence of significant vote fraud. Trump lost. Give it up.

No, he hasnt undermined him. Fauci has made several mistakes, first he said masks were not needed then he said they were. He even said it was ok to engage in sex with strangers on the internet. Multiple scientific studies have provided contradictory assertions about masks. 86 percent of people that contracted COVID wore masks all the time. PBS a few years ago in a documentary about the flu virus said wearing a mask to stop a virus is like using chicken wire to stop mosquitoes from getting in your house. So no one has all the answers to this virus not even Fauci.

I made no claim of Fauci being infallible. He made mistakes. But he has been doing a fairly good job of leading the effort to contain the virus, and Trump has undermined him. See Trump Continues Unjustified Attacks On Fauci (forbes.com)

He was he was the first to recommend stopping flights from China, possibly saving millions. Even Fauci complimented TRump for doing this.

Oh, puhleeze. Flights from China had already been stopped before Trump said anything. And all that did was delay it. Once COVID got a foothold, we were woefully ill prepared to contain it.

But some states thought it was worth the risk to allow people to maintain their lively hood and visit family members during an epidemic that only killed 0.03% of people that contracted it.

I showed you the numbers. Two percent of the people in America that have been diagnosed with COVID are now dead. Lights out. Stone cold. Belly up. Six feet under.

How do you know the death rate is only 0.03%?

Doubtful, it is already mid December and we have not reached even 300,000.

You need to understand the exponential. Since November 1, deaths by COVID in America have been increasing exponentially at a rate that doubles every 26.8 days. Round that up to a month. So if 40,000 died in November, then we can predict 80,000 in December, 160,000 in January, etc. unless something changes. Additional measures have been taken. Let's hope that these measures, as well as a vaccine, are enough to make the rates decline exponentially instead of increase exponentially.

Again, if 100 million Americans are eventually diagnosed with COVID, and if the death rate remains at 2% of those so diagnosed, then 2 million Americans would die.

Add up all the suicides, drug overdoses, and failures to go to doctors appointments for life threatening illnesses.

Yes, please do that. Add up all the deaths that increased due to these causes and show that it is significant compared to the number of COVID deaths. Until you do the math, I will take this as an empty claim.

That is still extremely unlikely and there is strong evidence the number of deaths have been inflated.

Now you are calling doctors liars? Sorry, they are doing all they can to save lives. When they tell us people are dying of COVID, I believe them.

Only 4 people on the entire planet have gotten it more than one time. He is going to keep Fauci, so the measures are unlikely to change signficantly unless he violates the Constitution like his mentor Obama did multiple times.

Understood, but humans are susceptible to the same cold or flu virus a year later. Few people have had COVID 9 months ago. So we really don't know if survivors are susceptible to another round of COVID a year later. But the evidence is looking good, so let's hope we are limited to one round of COVID per lifetime.

 

[Ed1wolf]

Athanasius basically says that there are 3 coequal gods but it is forbidden to say that there are 3 coequal gods. He is simply speaking nonsense.

See Athanasian Creed (A.D. 500) | CARM.org

No, read the first paragraph. There are three persons which are of one divine substance. Nothing nonsensical about that. As I have said before it is similar but not identical to a husband and wife, two in person one in their human substance.

 

[Ed1wolf]

I don't have time to list the 20,000 lies Trump has told in his presidency. See CNN Fact-Checker Spells Out The Stark Truth Of Donald Trump's Post-Election Lies | HuffPost and President Trump has made more than 20,000 false or misleading claims - The Washington Post .

Trump claimed he won the election. That is a lie.

It is not a lie if he believes it is true because of the large amount of documented fraud that took place. He may have won, all the fraud needs to be investigated but of course it looks like that is not going to happen given the hatred of the corrupt establishment of Trump.

dm: He sald the number of votes in Michigan are far greater than the number of people who voted. That is a lie.

No, he said that the number of people who voted was greater than the number of people registered to vote and this has been confirmed.

dm: He said they would not let Republican poll watchers in the room. That is a lie.

No, that was true at least temporarily and then they kept them too far away to see anything.

dm: He said thousands of fraudulent votes were found in Georgia. That is a lie.

No, there is some evidence that that is true. Watch the video where the poll workers who were all democrats told the GOP poll watchers to leave late at night and then took out large cases from under a table and started counting again.

dm; He said nobody is tougher on Russia than Donald Trump. That is a lie.

He is the first president since the Vietnam war that killed Russian soldiers. And he also wants Germany to stop buying oil from Russia and said it publicly which if they did, would destroy the Russian economy. In addition, unlike Obama he gave weapons to the Ukrainians to fight the Russians.

dm: Do you want me to continue?

Proverbs 19:22 says Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord.

Are Trump's lips an abomination to the Lord?

Lying is a very serious sin but most of Trumps lies were on relatively unimportant issues. There is a difference at least in the temporal realm.

 

[doubtingmerle]

No, read the first paragraph. There are three persons which are of one divine substance. Nothing nonsensical about that. As I have said before it is similar but not identical to a husband and wife, two in person one in their human substance.

The part that is nonsensical is saying there are three but there are not three. That is nonsensical.

Again, how does your view that God is three persons which are of one divine substance differ from the view that God is three gods which are of one divine substance?

The problem is that you and Athanasius teach something that, to me, is identical to believing in three gods which are of one substance, but you refuse to admit it. If your view is different from the three gods of one substance view, please tell us how your view differs.

 

[doubtingmerle]

It is not a lie if he believes it is true because of the large amount of documented fraud that took place. He may have won, all the fraud needs to be investigated but of course it looks like that is not going to happen given the hatred of the corrupt establishment of Trump.


No, he said that the number of people who voted was greater than the number of people registered to vote and this has been confirmed.


No, that was true at least temporarily and then they kept them too far away to see anything.


No, there is some evidence that that is true. Watch the video where the poll workers who were all democrats told the GOP poll watchers to leave late at night and then took out large cases from under a table and started counting again.


He is the first president since the Vietnam war that killed Russian soldiers. And he also wants Germany to stop buying oil from Russia and said it publicly which if they did, would destroy the Russian economy. In addition, unlike Obama he gave weapons to the Ukrainians to fight the Russians.


Lying is a very serious sin but most of Trumps lies were on relatively unimportant issues. There is a difference at least in the temporal realm.

Got it. You, Trump and others are going to repeat the same claims of voter fraud ad infinitum as though they are true. Sorry, these claims have been reviewed by the courts and all been found to have no legal standing. Fraud is extremely rare in American elections, and consists of only a few votes. Trump has presented no evidence anywhere near adequate to change the landslide for Biden.

Give it up. Trump lost.

 

[Ed1wolf]

I checked out what Athanasius said. It can be found at Athanasian Creed (A.D. 500) | CARM.org .

I find it interesting that he says you must believe all of the following to have salvation:

He therefore that will be saved must think thus of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man; God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of the substance of his mother, born in the world; perfect God and perfect man, of a rational soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching His godhead; and inferior to the Father, as touching His manhood; who, although He is God and man, yet he is not two, but one Christ; one, not by conversion of the godhead into flesh but by taking of the manhood into God; one altogether; not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person. For as the rational soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ; who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, He sits at the right hand of the Father, God Almighty, from whence He will come to judge the quick and the dead. At His coming all men will rise again with their bodies and shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.

This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully, he cannot be saved.​

How many Christians even understand this?

You dont have understand the Trinity as well as Athanasius to be saved, you just have to believe in it.

dm: How many believe it? Athanasius says you need to believe all this to have salvation.

Most biblical Christians believe in the Trinity.

dm: Even after reading this, how many Christians would score 100% on this test?

1. Was Jesus begotten during the lifetime of Mary?
2. Is Jesus of the substance of the Father?
3. Is Jesus man of the substance of his mother?
4. Are the Father and Jesus one altogether?
5. Is Christ one by conversion of the godhead into flesh or by taking of the manhood into God?
6. Is Christ one by confusion of substance or by unity of person?
7. Are God and man one Christ?
8. Did Jesus descend into hell?
9. How many days from the day Jesus died until he rose? (Note: Friday to Sunday equals 2).
10. Who is sitting on the left? The Father or Jesus?
11. Is it necessary to do good to go to life eternal?
12. Will those that have done evil go to everlasting fire?
​

How did you do? According to your authority, Athansius, you need to score 100% on this test, or you are eternal toast.

Most biblically educated Christians believe 1-4 and 7. Most would probably claim we dont know No. 5. And there is a mixed opinion on No. 8. Some believe He just experienced hell on the cross and others believe He actually went into hell. We dont know for certain, either way He definitely did at least experienced hell on the cross or in person in hell. No. 9 according to ancient jewish reckoning it was 3 days. No. 10, we dont know for sure, but probably the Holy Spirit. The Father is on the primary throne of heaven with Jesus at His right hand and probably the HS on His left. No. 11 the answer is yes. No. 12 the answer is yes if they did not sincerely repent. Though most scholars believe the imagery of fire is a hyperbole. A Christians primary authority for doctrine is the Bible not Athanasius, so no you dont need to score 100% on his test to avoid hell.

 

[Ed1wolf]

If Hitler kills millions of people it matters to me.

But if there is no God then it has no objective meaning to anyone and the perpetrators would have gotten away with it because there is no such thing as justice.

dm: Does it mean nothing to you?

Of course, since God exists it has infinite objective meaning to all of humanity and the King of the universe and those who were involved will be infinitely punished so that justice is served.

 

[doubtingmerle]

You dont have understand the Trinity as well as Athanasius to be saved, you just have to believe in it.

Most biblical Christians believe in the Trinity.


Most biblically educated Christians believe 1-4 and 7. Most would probably claim we dont know No. 5. And there is a mixed opinion on No. 8. Some believe He just experienced hell on the cross and others believe He actually went into hell. We dont know for certain, either way He definitely did at least experienced hell on the cross or in person in hell. No. 9 according to ancient jewish reckoning it was 3 days. No. 10, we dont know for sure, but probably the Holy Spirit. The Father is on the primary throne of heaven with Jesus at His right hand and probably the HS on His left. No. 11 the answer is yes. No. 12 the answer is yes if they did not sincerely repent. Though most scholars believe the imagery of fire is a hyperbole. A Christians primary authority for doctrine is the Bible not Athanasius, so no you dont need to score 100% on his test to avoid hell.

Ah, so your authority, Athanasius, was wrong when he wrote:

He therefore that will be saved must think thus of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right faith is, that we believe and confess, that...​

That was all a bunch of flapdoodle? You don't need to believe all of that? Good to know.

So what do you need to believe? If a person believes that there are three gods that share one divine substance, is that sufficient? If a person believes that there are 3 Gods that get along quite well, is that sufficient? If a person believes that God is one "person" that manifests himself in different ways at different times (like Superman and Clark Kent) is that sufficient?

Does one need to have the name of the Son of God right? What if one mistakenly believes that the Son was named Mithras or Horus? Is he doomed for getting the name wrong?

Does he need to believe that Jesus was born in Bethlehem? Does he need to believe that the means of death was crucifixion? What if he believes the Son was named Pedro, that he lived in Mexico, and was shot in a drug war? Can one be saved by accepting Pedro as his personal savior?