Where will conservatives go if they leave the UMC in a few years?

[circuitrider]

Two large conservative groups, the WCA and "Good News" are calling for an official split into two denominations.

 

[hedrick]

Two large conservative groups, the WCA and "Good News" are calling for an official split into two denominations.

An actual equal split, or "liberals should leave the denomination." Can you point to any specific proposal?

 

[Albion]

Two large conservative groups, the WCA and "Good News" are calling for an official split into two denominations.

Wow. So it would be the conservatives who are fed up with the way things are going. Maybe because of the cheating done by some congregations or pastors on the decisions made by the whole church?

That's what happened in other denominations--the church could affirm or reaffirm a certain position on some issue, but if a significant number of pastors or congregations flaut that decision, this accomplishes, in a way, what that side of the controversy couldn't do through channels.

 

[Anto9us]

this accomplishes, in a way, what that side of the controversy couldn't do through channels.

That's about the size of it, Albion.

 

[seeking.IAM]

I heard one of our local United Churches of Christ welcomed 8 new members a week or so ago. All came from one United Methodist Church; all because of one issue.

 

[Anto9us]

8 !! - equal to the world starting over after the Flood! All in one day!

BTW, seek, some say it wasn't Augustine who authored the "In essentials" quote -- but rather Rupert Meldenius

 

[Albion]

I heard one of our local United Churches of Christ welcomed 8 new members a week or so ago. All came from one United Methodist Church; all because of one issue.

I'd call that significant. They were what we would call dissatisfied liberals, I take it, as opposed to the UMCs conservative faction. (?)

 

[seeking.IAM]

I'd call that significant. They were what we would call dissatisfied liberals, I take it, as opposed to the UMCs conservative faction. (?)

I do not know them personally so I cannot say for certain. I do know that the church they joined is a growing UCC church that is open and affirming, so you may draw from that what conclusions you will.

 

[Albion]

Sure. They'd be dimwits to make that choice if they were on the other side and angry enough to leave their own congregation over this kind of thing. Still, it sometimes is the case that such people were offended by just some local example of the bigger issue or didn't have any other congregation that all of them were willing to move to, for whatever reason. In short, I am confident that you are right, but people sometimes do make strange choices when they're looking for a new church.

 

[VolRaider]

I did not vote in this poll yet. I would tend to lean toward the CotN, but I am not sure how rigid they are against some things, particularly dancing. My daughter is into hip hop and jazz and is actually very good in it.
If the CotN is still rigid against this, I would have to say no to them. Which, to tell you the truth, i could see some churches in my county try to go to the Free Methodists or become part of something new.

 

[actionsub]

I suspect that what's going to happen is a splinter conference which is trans-local, to allow the conservative UM churches a way to maintain the connection. If this is not allowed by GC, then it wouldn't be the first time a schism has occurred in the main Methodist body. It's happened twice (at least once) in the Methodist Episcopal Church, once over slavery (forming the Southern Methodists or ME Church-South) and once over the role of laity (forming the Methodist Protestant Church). While both these bodies were eventually absorbed back into the larger Methodist Church, there have also been a number of divisions over doctrinal and social issues which have continued as separate bodies (Free Methodists, CotN, and smaller bodies). A congregation for whom I assist with leading a midweek service is grappling with "what if" now because they are conservative and could not go along with full rights for LGBT people.
Good News and other conservative renewal groups within the UMC are not just going to go "OK" if 2009 GC accepts full inclusion of LGBT. They are the main drivers behind talk of schism.

 

[actionsub]

Yet there was at least one instance of it being the other way around when the Missouri Synod Lutheran liberals broke off. They ultimately joined a prominent and more liberal Lutheran body. That option wouldn't be available to the liberals in the UMC. And it did not prevent (although it delayed) a number of conservatives from bolting anyway.

Not so fast. The liberal side could always claim to take the "high road" and return to the Episcopal Church USA, thus allowing them to "return" to the church John Wesley never left!

 

[Albion]

That would be possible and, as you no doubt know, the Methodists and the Church of England have flirted with reunion for some time, plus both the UMC and The Episcopal Church in this country have been involved in decades of "COCU" talk with the African Methodist Episcopal Church and others.

BUT I just think this is a much 'longer shot' of a strategy than doing something that keeps the dissenters as Methodists in name and more in charge of their own ship.

 

[Dave-W]

Not so fast. The liberal side could always claim to take the "high road" and return to the Episcopal Church USA, thus allowing them to "return" to the church John Wesley never left!

Yeah - that is an option I had not considered, but it makes sense.

 

[actionsub]

And the "Way Forward" commission, charged to come up with a way to break the impasse between theological conservatives and progressives, released a status report today.
http://s3.amazonaws.com/Website_Pro...ter/documents/COWF_July_2017_Report_Final.pdf

 

[circuitrider]

That would be possible and, as you no doubt know, the Methodists and the Church of England have flirted with reunion for some time, plus both the UMC and The Episcopal Church in this country have been involved in decades of "COCU" talk with the African Methodist Episcopal Church and others.

BUT I just think this is a much 'longer shot' of a strategy than doing something that keeps the dissenters as Methodists in name and more in charge of their own ship.

That wouldn't work for my very low church but progressive UM congregation that I now serve. Two of our three Sunday worship services are contemporary worship. While our third service is quite liturgical, it is the smallest of the three.

 

[Albion]

That wouldn't work for my very low church but progressive UM congregation that I now serve. Two of our three Sunday worship services are contemporary worship. While our third service is quite liturgical, it is the smallest of the three.

I don't see any reason why all of this would pose any particular problem. The Anglican Quadrilateral clearly identified the basis for union over a hundred years ago and The Episcopal Church, as mentioned, has been in talks with not only Methodists but churches that they have much less in common with than the UMC.

Plus, it's no secret that there is a lot of diversity in The Episcopal Church these days (excepting only for Anglican traditionalists).

 

[circuitrider]

I don't see any reason why all of this would pose any particular problem.

Can you elaborate?

What I've heard of the full communion talks between the TEC and the UMC is that our less liturgical and uniform worship is a problem for the TEC. Am I missing something?

 

[Albion]

Can you elaborate?

What I've heard of the full communion talks between the TEC and the UMC is that our less liturgical and uniform worship is a problem for the TEC. Am I missing something?

Well, I'm no expert on what has gone on in those talks, but perhaps talks take a certain path when the possible outcome is a merging of whole denominations...which wouldn't be what we are contemplating in this discussion. And I know that there are low church Anglican parishes that are probably lower than yours.

I used to attend one in which the minister (who was called a minister) celebrated the rite for Holy Communion in a very abbreviated version, vested only in a Geneva gown. Not even a stole.

And, yes, there are parishes that have contemporary worship, sans Communion. Then too, you did say that you have one service that isn't of that sort. So, it's my guess and I could be wrong, but I'm not seeing the barrier you think might present itself. And practically speaking, a church that is fast losing members and funding which also prides itself on being in the forefront of ecumenical activity, would probably jump at the chance to accommodate such congregations as we're talking about.

 

[circuitrider]

Interesting thoughts Albion. But, at least for me, I'd not interested in that consideration unless the denomination so split that there wasn't appropriate Methodist denomination to affiliate with. I like the TEC, but my theology is very Wesleyan/Methodist.