Where will conservatives go if they leave the UMC in a few years?

[food4thought]

I'd be truly sad to see it happen, but this could lead to me returning to my Calvary Chapel roots.

 

[polkaman]

I'm a newbie here, and as such, I have to ask, what's the big todo over gays in the church ?
other church's accept them, such as the catholic.
Granted, they shouldn't be doing what they are doing....But we are to love our fellow man.
We are all siner's......

 

[Anto9us]

I voted Nazarene to the OP as such, but I wonder if it will really be CONSERVATIVE UMC members that do the splitting off, after all, the UMC worldwide including African and 3rd world churches is strongly conservative -- it would seem that the LIBERAL UMC members in US would be the ones to split off

I agree with polkaman about what's the big to-do over gays in church, as I am sure Jesus loves everybody, but the to-do is probably about HOW MONEY IS SPENT and WHO IS ALLOWED TO BE A BISHOP, ordained, what have you...

In the past, American Methodism was split over SLAVERY -- the "uniting" of the United Methodist Church, which happenned late-sixties in Dallas and I was there as a kid at the ceremony where UMC came to be -- in part was due to an at-long-last-healing over the slavery issue

so now we got the gays

always sumpn

 

[seeking.IAM]

There are more United Methodist churches in the United States than there are Nazarene churches in the entire world. While they may be ideologically similar, I contend that many communities will not have a Nazarene church present to absorb an exodus from said community's UMC. So many such Methodists would have to either be a new Nazarene church start or find somewhere else to worship. I think it is more likely that non-denoms will capture more affected UMCs than any one established denomination...for they are everywhere.

 

[Dave-W]

There are more United Methodist churches in the United States than there are Nazarene churches in the entire world. While they may be ideologically similar, I contend that many communities will not have a Nazarene church present to absorb an exodus from said community's UMC. So many such Methodists would have to either be a new Nazarene church start or find somewhere else to worship. I think it is more likely that non-denoms will capture more affected UMCs than any one established denomination...for they are everywhere.

There are also Free Methodist, African Methodist (AME, AMEZ) and Wesleyan congregations.

And the Assembly of God, and Church of God (anderson IN) are both mostly Wesleyan in doctrine.

 

[circuitrider]

I voted Nazarene to the OP as such, but I wonder if it will really be CONSERVATIVE UMC members that do the splitting off, after all, the UMC worldwide including African and 3rd world churches is strongly conservative -- it would seem that the LIBERAL UMC members in US would be the ones to split off

You'd think so. But the liberal wing of the choice values connectionalism way more than the conservative wing does. It has largely been liberal members and leaders calling for unity. While the conservative wing recently formed the Wesley Covenant Association and appears to be leaning towards doctrinal positions on other issues that are more conservative than UM doctrine while positioning itself to become the conservative split off organization.

 

[Striver]

(Just recently went back to the Methodist Church of my youth so I guess I better pay more attention to UMC politics.)

It's hard to say, Methodism does seem to be taking a via media when it comes to the issue. As somewhat of a Moderate or Moderate-Conservative, I have always liked that my local UMC was a place where people did seem to cross the political spectrum and still get along. I'm not gung-ho on diversity is always strength, but I do think this is/was a feature of Methodism built in from the days of Wesley. It certainly sharpened my mind.

I also caution too much about getting in the nitty-gritty of Conservative vis-a-vis Liberal, because I think the tribalism/factionalism is what ultimately results in the splits. One tribe gains the upper hand and all but forces the other out.

I hate to say it, but with the UMC I've always thought it more of a mutual split. There will be two denominations where there was one. There have been rumblings in both wings about leaving, and you're always going to have at least that vocal minority. Cooler heads hopefully can prevail, but if they don't then I see more of mutual parting of ways. I suspect that it will lead to the UMC maybe staying the UMC (or some derivative) with a more Liberal to Moderate base and then the Conservatives coming up with a new Methodist denomination. Just by virtue of positions, the Conservatives do seem to try and move away from names. The Christian zeitgeist seems to be nondenominationalism, so probably some churches will split off and go that route or join other, smaller denoms.

 

[hedrick]

Via media is hard. Is it a via media when gays aren't permitted to be pastors? To me a via media means that both sides are free to do the ministry that they are called to do. But that would require accepting both gays and conservatives. The problem is that many won't stay in a church that ordains gays. So a via media doesn't seem possible.

The PCUSA has tried to take a via media. But it's not seen as that, for the reason just described.

 

[Anto9us]

accepting both gays and conservatives

Gee Whiz, Hedrick -- possibly only GOD HIMSELF is capable of THAT !!

 

[W Johnson]

I think that there is nothing really to worry about. The United Methodist Church was formed by combining two Churches and both of those older churches were formed by combining other Churches. We are all one in Christ.

 

[Anto9us]

Right. Nothing to worry about.

As I see it, Methodists never claimed to be the "one true church" as some denoms have done -- Methodists seem to have been content to say
"we are A true church among other denominations which are also part of THE TRUE CHURCH"

If a split does or not happen - so what?

The church building where I grew up in, has "St. John's Methodist Church" ENGRAVED IN STONE at the front of the building. It was not chiseled out and rewritten to say "St. John's United Methodist Church" when the merger happened in late sixties -- it was not chiseled out and rewritten to say
"New Light Missionary Baptist Church" which is the congregation that has the building now...

It's just a matter of NAMES, BUILDINGS, and of course MONEY being haggled over

 

[Albion]

However, even if a split fails to happen, a policy change could well result in perhaps hundreds of thousands of conservative United Methodists waking out the doors and trying other denominations. It is hard to say where most would go. What do you think?

Based on what has happened with other leading denominations, I would expect them to scatter to a variety of alternatives, including the churches most akin to the UMC--Free Methodists, Nazarenes, etc.--with many, usually the older members, simply drifting into inactivity. Also, expect a smaller number going to less obvious Protestant churches (Presbyterian, Disciples, etc.) or to some successor "Continuing Methodist" church that would surely be set up by some activists.

 

[hedrick]

Everyone is assuming that conservatives will withdraw. I don't think the votes exist for the denomination to accept gays. In no other church have conservatives been willing to agree to coexistence. I think liberals will withdraw, probably in the form of annual conferences and/or jurisdictions. That will result in an actual split. If that doesn't happen I agree with Albion.

 

[Anto9us]

Possible "successor Continuing Methodist Church denominations" we could split into:

1. "The FLAMING LGBT-accepting Freest-of-the-Free Methodist Church"

2. "The Hardcore Conservative 'If that King James Bible was good enough for Paul and Silas - it's good enough for me' Heterosexual Un-united Methodist Church"

3. "The MIDDLE WAY 'By their Fruits Ye Shall Know Them' Most-Right Moderate Methodist Church"

4. "The Super-splitting Schismatic New Age Methodist Church of Transhuman Latter Day Saints"

These are just a few of many possible new denoms...

 

[Anto9us]

One of the most unusual split-off denoms is
"The Particular Peculiar People Methodist Church"

They accept Muslims, Mormons, Gays and Conservatives,
but DO NOT accept Calvinists or Cessationists...

 

[Striver]

Everyone is assuming that conservatives will withdraw. I don't think the votes exist for the denomination to accept gays. In no other church have conservatives been willing to agree to coexistence. I think liberals will withdraw, probably in the form of annual conferences and/or jurisdictions. That will result in an actual split. If that doesn't happen I agree with Albion.

The most likely scenario, IMHO.

I'd push back a bit against saying it's always just the conservatives. A via media way would be quite complex, but most of the time the issue comes when it involves an LGBT+ taking authority over a congregation/region/district/bishopric/etc which brings it to an either/or situation for a denomination. Obviously any sort of compromise settlement will result in some arrangement that one side or the other views as unfair. Yet I would hazard to guess the average congregation member is perhaps a bit more mellow on the subject than activists of either side would have us believe.

Still have my faith (after that in God first) in the UMC because it's always been quarky enough in local expressions at the congregation and district levels to track a unique path. It never tows the line of the liberal or conservative absolutes.

 

[circuitrider]

Everyone is assuming that conservatives will withdraw. I don't think the votes exist for the denomination to accept gays. In no other church have conservatives been willing to agree to coexistence. I think liberals will withdraw, probably in the form of annual conferences and/or jurisdictions. That will result in an actual split. If that doesn't happen I agree with Albion.

Possible. But conservatives having the most GC votes hasn't proven to be a ultimate "win." The conservatives are frustrated that they are often thwarted at the jurisdictional and Annual Conference level were those bodies are more and more refusing to follow what they see as contradictory and unjust rules. That could signal the liberals splitting. But also, the conservatives (at least the group following the WCA) might ditch the denomination as ultimately not controllable to create a new denomination with tighter rules that they could keep their thumb on.

 

[Albion]

Everything you say is true, from all that I know, but it is an unusual situation, isn't it?

From other Methodists I've spoken with, I get the idea that the liberals being frustrated enough to make a break is a possibility. That surprised me at first. We have come to think of splits in major denominations as always being a matter of the liberals doggedly working for--and getting--change until the conservatives feel that they have no choice but to get out and start afresh. Yet there was at least one instance of it being the other way around when the Missouri Synod Lutheran liberals broke off. They ultimately joined a prominent and more liberal Lutheran body. That option wouldn't be available to the liberals in the UMC. And it did not prevent (although it delayed) a number of conservatives from bolting anyway.

 

[circuitrider]

Everything you say is true, from all that I know, but it is an unusual situation, isn't it?

From other Methodists I've spoken with, I get the idea that the liberals being frustrated enough to make a break is a possibility. That surprised me at first. We have come to think of splits in major denominations as always being a matter of the liberals doggedly working for--and getting--change until the conservatives feel that they have no choice but to get out and start afresh. Yet there was at least one instance of it being the other way around when the Missouri Synod Lutheran liberals broke off. They ultimately joined a prominent and more liberal Lutheran body. That option wouldn't be available to the liberals in the UMC. And it did not prevent (although it delayed) a number of conservatives from bolting anyway.

Yes, ultimately we cannot predict what may end up happening.

My biggest fear is that the Commission will come up with a brilliant solution but that the General Conference, which seems horribly dysfunctional will be unable to adopt it. If that happens some kind of split will likely come because after 40+ years of this, the status quo cannot continue. The stress within the structure is too high for that.

 

[Albion]

My biggest fear is that the Commission will come up with a brilliant solution but that the General Conference, which seems horribly dysfunctional will be unable to adopt it. If that happens some kind of split will likely come because after 40+ years of this, the status quo cannot continue. The stress within the structure is too high for that.

Yep, that makes sense.