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Where too many of us Christians get it wrong

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Vance

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The problem lies in that too many Christians seem to be viewing science as “the search for truth” wherever it may lie. And that is understandable because we live in a society which has come to think that such truth does, indeed, lie within the grasp (eventually) of scientific inquiry. We have elevated science beyond its limited scope and into a role for which it was never intended: arbiter of truth. And if science is going to tell us what TRUTH is, we want to make sure that it is looking in all the right places!! Perfectly understandable.

But, science can not be that, no matter how much we would like it to. The scientific method is a tool, a single method of inquiry (among others) providing evidence and information about natural world, how it works, how it has worked (and here is the kicker) in its natural state. It is not meant to provide ALL the answers for what happens on earth, either in the past or in the present. Science can only provide a limited scope of inquiry because it uses very specific and limited tools. Any scientist who is a Christian will tell you that this is NOT because they have some agenda to leave out other areas of inquiry, like the supernatural, but because their tools and methods simply do not work to provide any analysis or testing or consideration of such phenomenon.

As the importance of science as an arbiter of truth has expanded, people have wanted to expand what science is and what it can do, but this will just not work. There is no way for science to work with anything but the natural. Does that mean science will necessarily get things wrong when there IS a supernatural cause, and science is constrained to look for natural causes? Well, yes and no. It would definitely get it wrong if we were expecting science to provide THE ANSWER to the question. But, if we treat science as we should, then all science would say on a subject is that X is the most likely of the possible natural explanations. Science does a good job at providing us with this answer, and we all must admit that (since God allows things to just happen naturally in all but a very few specific instances) this is almost always the right answer. And for those who have naturalistic philosophies, their inquiry goes no further. For those who do NOT have such a philosophy, they take that scientific conclusion on board and keep going on with their analysis.

What all of us Christians want is for people to take the supernatural into consideration where appropriate when making their ultimate decisions about important issues. We want that to be part of the discussion, and part of our analysis. And this is exactly what we SHOULD promote. But that does not mean that SCIENCE, as a professional discipline, can do this. Instead, rather than expand science to force it to inquire into the supernatural, we must relegate it back down to its place as simply providing us a part of the puzzle.

Now ID becomes an interesting middle ground. On the one hand, the actual ID scientists want to play by these rules and say that using natural evidence objectively, we can surmise a supernatural involvement. That is fine to an extent, since it is not trying to force science to analyze the supernatural at all, but simply consider “the supernatural” as part of the ultimate ANSWER to the natural evidence. Now, the scientific community could never confirm that the supernatural was or was not THE answer, since science is not equipped to do so. But, I suppose the ID proponents could attempt to establish by naturalistic evidence that there is an absolute failure of entirely natural explanations. But, my guess is that such a complete falsification is impossible, so we will never get there.

In the end, the proper "foe" is not science, it is not evolution or an old earth. If we were to combat anything it would that philosophical naturalism which goes beyond mere science, and simply refuses to accept anything beyond the natural. To that, I think Shakespeare had the best response:

"There is more to heaven and earth, Horatio, than is dreamt of in your philosophy."

We should be encouraging an open mind regarding what might make up the "ultimate answers", not fighting over what the best naturalistic explanation might be. That is evolution, and an old earth, without doubt. We fight that battle and we merely do damage to the more important issue of worldview.
 

gluadys

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So you're calling for a degeneration of science back to its roots? Is that what you're trying to say?

Good heavens, no.

Vance is calling for science to be recognized for what it is---an exploration of the natural processes of nature--and nothing more than that.

Our problem is that we are trying to make science do the work of philosophy and theology in addition to the work of science. Science is not able to give us ultimate answers because it is not philosophy, not theology and certainly not revelation. It is only science. That is what we need to recognize.
 
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ExistencePrecedesEssence

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Good heavens, no.

Vance is calling for science to be recognized for what it is---an exploration of the natural processes of nature--and nothing more than that.

Our problem is that we are trying to make science do the work of philosophy and theology in addition to the work of science. Science is not able to give us ultimate answers because it is not philosophy, not theology and certainly not revelation. It is only science. That is what we need to recognize.
Are you kidding?

I'm only going to address the philosophy part of your response because this is what I know more of(i'm not a theologian, i'm not going to bother trying to discuss something I know little about):

Philosophy does not give us ultimate answers, nor is it specified into a field that does such thing. Science is humanities attempt to answer the questions to the world around them, philosophy is the way to deal with what science and the other fields show to us. It's been a mistake for philosophy to try and overstep itself into the scientific standards of deduction(the empiricists, Husserl's phenomenology, etc).

Science is much more than just the naturalistic study of phenomena, for fields of philosophy(which are called philosophies of science no less) attempt to do so also.

The differential here is that the types of truth scientific inquiry wish to deduce are ones that exclude our interaction with it. Science is taken from the rational point of view, of a detached, objective, and sometimes rather boring perception of the world. Philosophy too is not escaping such fields...take the rationalists, empiricists, materialists, determinists, etc.

A return to exploration of the natural proccesses of nature? I could take this and whip into a philosophical discourse instead of a scientific one: A return to the perception that we see the ontological nature of being through.

Science is an extension of philosophy, it is also an extension of the logical formalities that are displayed in most modern philosophical institutions....and that is a pursuit of knowledge from a detached and objective conception.
 
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Vance

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Sure, there are philosophies of science, but they are just that "philosophies", not science. As you say, science is merely the attempt to answer to the questions of the world around them. That world is natural and the questions it can answer are the natural ones. It is called naturalistic methodology for a reason. The method can only handle the natural.

Now, there are dozens of disciplines which take off from there and use that data to reach all types of philosophical conclusions, I am sure. But science, as science, is merely the study of the natural world, when it is working naturally. You would agree that science can not test for or make any real analysis of a supernatural event, and that is the point I am making.

You are talking about the process of taking those scientific conclusions and using it in different philosophical ways, and I understand that. But that is something that, while interrelated, is not pure science.
 
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ExistencePrecedesEssence

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Sure, there are philosophies of science, but they are just that "philosophies", not science. As you say, science is merely the attempt to answer to the questions of the world around them. That world is natural and the questions it can answer are the natural ones. It is called naturalistic methodology for a reason. The method can only handle the natural.

Now, there are dozens of disciplines which take off from there and use that data to reach all types of philosophical conclusions, I am sure. But science, as science, is merely the study of the natural world, when it is working naturally. You would agree that science can not test for or make any real analysis of a supernatural event, and that is the point I am making.

You are talking about the process of taking those scientific conclusions and using it in different philosophical ways, and I understand that. But that is something that, while interrelated, is not pure science.
And where have you ever seen science ever attempt to answer a supernatural event? In most cases science merely shows that a so called supernatural even can be explained quite thoroughly by the scientific method and natural phenomena. To that point I don't see what we're arguing about.
 
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gluadys

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Wow!. sounds like there is more agreement between us than first appeared.


Are
Philosophy does not give us ultimate answers, nor is it specified into a field that does such thing. Science is humanities attempt to answer the questions to the world around them, philosophy is the way to deal with what science and the other fields show to us.

Good differentiation. I would make something the same point about theology (which I know better than I know philosophy). Theology should not dispute what science has discovered, but rather reflect on the theological implications of scientific knowledge.

It's been a mistake for philosophy to try and overstep itself into the scientific standards of deduction(the empiricists, Husserl's phenomenology, etc).

Absolutely! I agree.

Science is much more than just the naturalistic study of phenomena, for fields of philosophy(which are called philosophies of science no less) attempt to do so also.

Here I will seek a clarification. Surely you are not saying that philosophies of science are themselves science? Are they not rather philosophical viewpoints?

The differential here is that the types of truth scientific inquiry wish to deduce are ones that exclude our interaction with it.

That was the ideal, until work with quantum events showed that the observer much be included in the observation.

Science is taken from the rational point of view, of a detached, objective, and sometimes rather boring perception of the world. Philosophy too is not escaping such fields...take the rationalists, empiricists, materialists, determinists, etc.

Yup.

A return to exploration of the natural proccesses of nature? I could take this and whip into a philosophical discourse instead of a scientific one: A return to the perception that we see the ontological nature of being through.

Did you miss a word in the last sentence? I am not sure I understand what you are saying.

Of course the whole question of the relation of scientific knowledge to ontological reality makes for a fascinating conversation.

Science is an extension of philosophy, it is also an extension of the logical formalities that are displayed in most modern philosophical institutions....and that is a pursuit of knowledge from a detached and objective conception.

Right.

So what was your objection to the OP? "degeneration" is a strongly negative word and obviously something hit a nerve.
 
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Vance

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You are right, science does not attempt to explain supernatural events. It is not equipped to do so other than, as you correctly point out, to show positive evidence that a proposed supernatural event did not take place (or at least did not happen a certain way).

The point of the thread was to point out that, for Christians, science can never be the arbiter of all truth because it can not take into consideration factors that we, as Christians, believe are very real and should be considered. BUT, we should not, then, attempt to change science into something that it is not. In short, we should not attempt to "Christianize" science and require that it factor in the possibility of the supernatural as part of its conclusions.
 
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Vance

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I think everyone can agree on what you said.

I think schools should continue to teach evolution and the churches can teach religion, then individuals can then choose what they believe.
Right, and they might just end up believing both! :0)
 
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ExistencePrecedesEssence

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You are right, science does not attempt to explain supernatural events. It is not equipped to do so other than, as you correctly point out, to show positive evidence that a proposed supernatural event did not take place (or at least did not happen a certain way).

The point of the thread was to point out that, for Christians, science can never be the arbiter of all truth because it can not take into consideration factors that we, as Christians, believe are very real and should be considered. BUT, we should not, then, attempt to change science into something that it is not. In short, we should not attempt to "Christianize" science and require that it factor in the possibility of the supernatural as part of its conclusions.
But to abstract science as something that does not yield truth is something I cannot agree with, not in the least. If you deduce such a thing you merely give way for people to presume science is merely irrelevant and thus unworthy of their time...which is quite the opposite.
 
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ExistencePrecedesEssence

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Here I will seek a clarification. Surely you are not saying that philosophies of science are themselves science? Are they not rather philosophical viewpoints?
No, i'm merely saying that those philosophical conducts are built upon the same considerations as the sciences.

Did you miss a word in the last sentence? I am not sure I understand what you are saying.
Of course the whole question of the relation of scientific knowledge to ontological reality makes for a fascinating conversation.

I wouldn't find it all that interesting, the nature of things lacking a phenomenological method is something I have no intention of ever trying to argue about. I'm only concerned when the nature of the thing is observed by a human being and, after thus achieved, how the individual can use the thing to assist themselves . I care not for the nature of things, I care for the states that it can be used to assist me in this odyssey of life.

So what was your objection to the OP? "degeneration" is a strongly negative word and obviously something hit a nerve.
Don't know.
 
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gluadys

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But to abstract science as something that does not yield truth is something I cannot agree with, not in the least.

I wouldn't agree with that either, but I don't see anyone recommending that. I think you may be misunderstanding the position being presented.
 
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Vance

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I wouldn't agree with that either, but I don't see anyone recommending that. I think you may be misunderstanding the position being presented.
Right, my statement was to my fellow Christians who, by definition, accept that there is something beyond the mere natural. To those who hold this viewpoint (whether rightly or wrongly), science can provide a certain category of truth, but not necessarily every aspect of the truth in all areas.
 
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artybloke

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But to abstract science as something that does not yield truth is something I cannot agree with, not in the least.

Then maybe we ought to make a practical distinction between truth and Truth. Truth with a capital T being "ultimate truth" as opposed to the "truth" of science which is empirical and causal (that is, it is true because other things are true.)

Ultimate Truth is where God resides, truth is as far as science can go. Theologically, of course, God is the "uncaused cause", the "Being Itself" (Heidegger, Tillich) out of which "Being" flows.

Ultimate Truth may not exist, of course. But that's where faith comes in: accepting that behind the truth of the world, there is an Ultimate Truth.
 
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Vance

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Then maybe we ought to make a practical distinction between truth and Truth. Truth with a capital T being "ultimate truth" as opposed to the "truth" of science which is empirical and causal (that is, it is true because other things are true.)

Ultimate Truth is where God resides, truth is as far as science can go. Theologically, of course, God is the "uncaused cause", the "Being Itself" (Heidegger, Tillich) out of which "Being" flows.

Ultimate Truth may not exist, of course. But that's where faith comes in: accepting that behind the truth of the world, there is an Ultimate Truth.
And, to follow up on that, the fact that there IS ultimate Truth does not mean we can not discover, with a very high degree of certainty, a whole bunch of truths. In fact, I think God wants and expects us to figure out as much about His Creation and how it works, and how it has worked, as possible. That is why He tells us to seek knowledge and gain wisdom. It is why He made us as inquisitive and curious people in the first place.
 
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