Where on earth...

[Suffolk Sean]

Where on earth did we get the ideas that the ministers of our churches, ministries, etc are supposed to be leaders? I honestly want to know because I'm tired of Pastors and such lording over the church with their vision and your needed to submit.

The best I can tell is that the ministers of the church are to be the servants of the church.

 

[Emma!]

Where on earth did we get the ideas that the ministers of our churches, ministries, etc are supposed to be leaders? I honestly want to know because I'm tired of Pastors and such lording over the church with their vision and your needed to submit.

The best I can tell is that the ministers of the church are to be the servants of the church.

Leadership is a gift from God, God has equiped them to 'lead' the church....

Romans 12
7If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; 8if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.

Hebrews 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.


Hebrews 13:7
Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith.

 

[KleinerApfel]

I see your point, but if the pastor isn't to be the leader, who is?

If he's ultimately responsible for the bulk of teaching, welfare, final decisions etc., then the pastor must have a measure of authority and control. There really is no such thing as democracy in church (is there anywhere?)

The problem we have, same as in Bible times, is in misunderstanding some basic words: leadership, servanthood, meekness.

The world says to be a leader you must fight to the top, fight to stay there, put down the potential usurper, be ruthless, show your power, show no mercy. The church and it's hierarchy keeps falling into the same trap.

But Jesus says he who would be great must be the servant. He demonstrated true power and authority with humility, love, self-control - meekness and majesty.

I don't know the answer - we do need leaders in our churches, and the task will undoubtedly fall to pastors, but how to keep to the Christ-like model?

One thing; I suppose the average pastor would be able to operate a lot closer to the ideal if they were truly loved and prayed for by their congregations.
And I don't say that lightly, or to be judgmental of anyone, but humbly as as one who struggles over "issues" with her own vicar and can't always grasp the way forward.
Trouble is, neither he nor I are perfect! But God is softening my heart to love my brother.

(Of course there are truly abusive pastors in soma instances, and that's probably not what you were meaning. A whole other story when things go that far wrong.)

God bless you, Susana

 

[KleinerApfel]

Good scriptures to back that up Emma - we passed in the post just there!

 

[muffler dragon]

Where on earth did we get the ideas that the ministers of our churches, ministries, etc are supposed to be leaders? I honestly want to know because I'm tired of Pastors and such lording over the church with their vision and your needed to submit.

The best I can tell is that the ministers of the church are to be the servants of the church.

Won't get an argument from me, but granted, I am of the extreme nature in the direction you speak of.

 

[Father Rick]

Scripture says they are to be leaders... not dictators.... BIG difference between the two!

 

[JimB]

Where on earth did we get the ideas that the ministers of our churches, ministries, etc are supposed to be leaders? I honestly want to know because I'm tired of Pastors and such lording over the church with their vision and your needed to submit.

The best I can tell is that the ministers of the church are to be the servants of the church.

It is apparent to me that in the early church the Apostles were leaders and appointed other leaders (elders, bishops) in the churches they planted. Paul’s epistles seem to be addressed to leaders and he “salutes” and often recognizes them in his writings.

However, I agree. In the church, leaders are shepherds who lead and serve (by their actions and love). They are not ranchers who drive the Lord’s sheep like cattle.

1To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ's sufferings and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed: 2Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, serving as overseers--not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve; 3not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock. (1 Peter 3)



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\o/

 

[Suffolk Sean]

It is apparent to me that in the early church the Apostles were leaders and appointed other leaders (elders, bishops) in the churches they planted. Paul’s epistles seem to be addressed to leaders and he “salutes” and often recognizes them in his writings.

However, I agree. In the church, leaders are shepherds who lead and serve (by their actions and love). They are not ranchers who drive the Lord’s sheep like cattle.

1To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ's sufferings and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed: 2Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, serving as overseers--not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve; 3not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock. (1 Peter 3)





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\o/

So why do we get lorded over? Jim, Rick, and others, I wish I knew churches with people like you at the pulpit around here. I'm horribly disillusioned with church still and have a hard time going to one.

I have been hurt, I have seen horrific abuses in the name of the leadership's vision, I just don't know what to do...

 

[enoch son]

Doesn't the word say's that if a blind mans leads you, you will in up in a ditch? It's call I've got to kept you in the pew so I can get your tithe. Money!!!!!!!!!! What bad about it is they use manipulation, intimidation, domination to do it! Which is witchcraft!

 

[JimB]

So why do we get lorded over? Jim, Rick, and others, I wish I knew churches with people like you at the pulpit around here. I'm horribly disillusioned with church still and have a hard time going to one.

I have been hurt, I have seen horrific abuses in the name of the leadership's vision, I just don't know what to do...

You have a legit complaint, Sean. I have been in the P/C/W ranks for too many years and have noticed that it, unlike mainline denominations, generally endorses autocratic leadership. “Pastor” is usually spelled “B-O-S-S” and there is little semblance of servanthood among most P/C/W pastors I encounter who jealously guard their dictatorial roles. In fact, just see how (in)accessible most of the are(n’t). Heck, I can’t get past the pastor’s secretary these days and seldom have them return a phone call. There seems to be growing trend among P/C/W pastors to insulate themselves from people.

I have also noticed in the circles I move that the “ministry” as it is defined attracts a lot of introverted control-freaks who, while not being able to carry on a casual one-on-one conversation with you, can preach to thousands and who see in the pastoral ministry an opportunity to be the big fish in a small pond. They are usually uneducated men/women (most P/C/W churches have yet to require formal education in ministers) whose knowledge of the Bible is limited to the denominational proof-texts. While formal biblical education should never be a requirement for ordination, intelligence and discipline should. (I recently talked to ordained P/C/W pastor who did not know what the New King James Version was – he asked, wide-eyed, “You mean there’s a new one?” - Scary, huh?) It is my opinion that a man/woman who does not pursue a formal education beyond high school probably lacks the self-discipline to be effective at anything.

It is no wonder you are disillusioned, Sean. But you must not submit to the sin of taking offense. While I am not necessarily a fan of John Bevere, he did teach me that it is just as wrong to take an offense as to give one. Just buck-up, find the best fellowship you can, and be the salt that flavors the congregation you are a part of. None of them will be perfect but they can be better because of you.

\o/

 

[Suffolk Sean]

You have a legit complaint, Sean. I have been in the P/C/W ranks for too many years and have noticed that it, unlike mainline denominations, generally endorses autocratic leadership. “Pastor” is usually spelled “B-O-S-S” and there is little semblance of servanthood among most P/C/W pastors I encounter who jealously guard their dictatorial roles. In fact, just see how (in)accessible most of the are(n’t). Heck, I can’t get past the pastor’s secretary these days and seldom have them return a phone call. There seems to be growing trend among P/C/W pastors to insulate themselves from people.

I have also noticed in the circles I move that the “ministry” as it is defined attracts a lot of introverted control-freaks who, while not being able to carry on a casual one-on-one conversation with you, can preach to thousands and who see in the pastoral ministry an opportunity to be the big fish in a small pond. They are usually uneducated men/women (most P/C/W churches have yet to require formal education in ministers) whose knowledge of the Bible is limited to the denominational proof-texts. While formal biblical education should never be a requirement for ordination, intelligence and discipline should. (I recently talked to ordained P/C/W pastor who did not know what the New King James Version was – he asked, wide-eyed, “You mean there’s a new one?” - Scary, huh?) It is my opinion that a man/woman who does not pursue a formal education beyond high school probably lacks the self-discipline to be effective at anything.

It is no wonder you are disillusioned, Sean. But you must not submit to the sin of taking offense. While I am not necessarily a fan of John Bevere, he did teach me that it is just as wrong to take an offense as to give one. Just buck-up, find the best fellowship you can, and be the salt that flavors the congregation you are a part of. None of them will be perfect but they can be better because of you.

\o/

You know Jim it is hard to see these kinds of things going on. I feel there is a call on my life to help people be empowered by the knowledge of finished work, but all I see are "super-pastors" out there grabbing the glory, pushing their vision, eating the harvest. It is darn hard to not take offense.

I agree about the self-discipline thing. I used to feel the other way and still believe one does not need an "education" in order to be called. But as you grow you need to mature and bettering yourself for the sake of others is a distinct mark of maturity.

 

[KleinerApfel]

It's hard for those "swimming against the flow."

God appreciates the efforts of His children in hard surroundings, and I'm sure the "little ones" stuck there with you guys will be glad you're there too.

You can be part of the answer if you "bloom where you're planted."
At least, on my better days that's what I hope for where I am.
It's very hard sometimes isn't it?

Psalm 84:
5 Blessed are those whose strength is in you,
who have set their hearts on pilgrimage.
6 As they pass through the Valley of Baca,
they make it a place of springs;
the autumn rains also cover it with pools. [2]
7 They go from strength to strength,
till each appears before God in Zion.

See you there!

God bless, Susana

 

[StevenL]

If the assemblies would stick to the Scriptural form of leadership, you wouldn't have nearly the problem in the sense you're describing. But most "leaders" are not interested in Scriptural assemblies.

 

[New_Wineskin]

Where on earth did we get the ideas that the ministers of our churches, ministries, etc are supposed to be leaders? I honestly want to know because I'm tired of Pastors and such lording over the church with their vision and your needed to submit.

The best I can tell is that the ministers of the church are to be the servants of the church.

Excellant post , Sean . I agree . If anything , they should be doing what we tell them and not the other way around ... especially since we usually pay them for their "position" . Just adding some extreme thoughts on the issue .

 

[enoch son]

I believe that prophet are God's policeman in the body. I believe that from Pauls written in the letter to the Cor. church that 3 or 4 prophets in a group of believer was the normal. I believe they were place there just to kept the pastor or elders in line. So where are the prophets? I had a preacher once say to me that he was the shepherd of his flock. I said that you might be, but your not the great shepherd are you! No answer came back.

 

[Suffolk Sean]

I believe that prophet are God's policeman in the body. I believe that from Pauls written in the letter to the Cor. church that 3 or 4 prophets in a group of believer was the normal. I believe they were place there just to kept the pastor or elders in line. So where are the prophets? I had a preacher once say to me that he was the shepherd of his flock. I said that you might be, but your not the great shepherd are you! No answer came back.

I agree with your position on the prophets. I get leary of those that call themselves prophets but are really pastors operating in prophetic gifts. They seem to be the worst of the lot.

I think Samuel and Nathan are great examples of how prophets are to act.


NW, thanks I appreciate your views. You know about pay recall the passage:

1 Corinthians 9:3 My defense to those who examine me is this: 4 Do we have no right to eat and drink? 5 Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas? 6 Or is it only Barnabas and I who have no right to refrain from working? 7 Who ever goes to war at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat of its fruit? Or who tends a flock and does not drink of the milk of the flock? 8 Do I say these things as a mere man? Or does not the law say the same also? 9 For it is written in the law of Moses, "You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain." Is it oxen God is concerned about? 10 Or does He say it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written, that he who plows should plow in hope, and he who threshes in hope should be partaker of his hope. 11 If we have sown spiritual things for you, is it a great thing if we reap your material things? 12 If others are partakers of this right over you, are we not even more? Nevertheless we have not used this right, but endure all things lest we hinder the gospel of Christ. 13 Do you not know that those who minister the holy things eat of the things of the temple, and those who serve at the altar partake of the offerings of the altar? 14 Even so the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should live from the gospel.
These people mentioned here are workers and servants, they partake of the whole but it isn't their harvest, it is the Lord's. The priest partook of the temple, but it was not their's, it was the Lord's. This is what gets me so upset.

 

[Blade]

Jesus is the great shepherd. But I do believe we all need someone to answer to. Or be our pastor to help keep balance when needed. I believe the paster is the leader of the church. Sometimes even though we know were right we still need to submit. To many chiefs not enough indians.

 

[fiveinjuly]

Scripture says they are to be leaders... not dictators.... BIG difference between the two!

...and the church said:

and

 

[He put me back together]

I think the problem here is most likely that the Spirit of Elohim is simply missing from our assemblies, in many aspects. If the Spirit is not in us to choose a bishop (as if the decision was actually left up to the congregation in most situations), it is heavily unlikely that the man chosen by Elohim will be chosen by man.

With sadness, my honest observation is that what we call the church is typically like nearly all things on this earth--the one in the leader's seat is not the man who is strongest, smartest, best equipped, or chosen by Elohim (the latter, of course, is all that should matter). It's the man with the biggest mouth. Not to mention the fact that the one in the leader's seat is not truely at the helm, and neither is God.

Our style of meeting is obviously quite different from that of the new testiment--when I read the NT, I do not see one fellow getting up and making a big speech every week. I see everyone speaking together. Hey, I don't even see a stage, or a pulpit (actually, not all of these assemblies could get a pulpit if they wanted one). But the NT doesn't lay out a *plan* for meeting, not that they had one in the first place...I think, chiefly because if they did lay out a plan, it'd be just another culture-based line of scripture for us to pick up and squabble over. Still, while I think it'd be rather childish, *legalistic* (that one's for you, Jim), and off the mark to lay out any one style or plan as *the* format for worship (which is exactly what we've done), I think all of our meetings could use much more input from the congregation than we have. Even among us where everyone participates in the singing and the clapping and the...um...dancing jumping and shouting...when it's time to examine scripture, typically only one man is given to comment, and everybody else is just supposed to shout "amen!" and "you right preacher! you right! praiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiseeeeeee Gawd!" Unless, of course, someone stands up and starts speaking weird, which signifies a prophecy...

I think if there was more interaction and thought in ALL aspects of the church, we'd be less apt to have one guy standing up there dictating to everyone what to think, what to feel, how to act, and everything else. We would all learn from one another and from God, as it is supposed to be. When it comes to wickness in high places, or simply bad choices, or, well, just other people in general, I think the best thing for any individual to do is to make sure that he is right, that he is filled with the Spirit of God, and he himself is walking in the will of the true Father.

 

[enoch son]

Sean; I will tell you a story that Dreck Prince told one time. A new young pastor took over at a church. There where two little old lady in the congregation. One would speak in tongues and the other would interpret. The young pastor was under thier control. Dreck rebuke them. Witchcraft nothing more. "To the one that given much, much is required". I have seen this spirit of control many times. And it smells real bad.