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So your conclusion then is that they are no longer a member of the body of Christ.They are asleep. They are at perfect peace and rest. Not doing the work of the church. They have ran the goal.. They have reached the FINISH line.
No that was not my conclusion but your assumption that was what I was saying.So your conclusion then is that they are no longer a member of the body of Christ.
Well, I guess it depends on what one believes about the body of Christ, and being a member.
In multiple places in scripture, we are told believers belong to 'one body'. We are all members of this 'one body'. (Romans 12, 1Corinthians 10, 1Corinthians 12, Ephesians 3-5, Colossians 3). In fact, a lot of Scripture is spent drilling into our heads this understanding.
We are also told in scripture that nothing, including death can separate us from the love of Christ (Romans 8:38-39).
So if one does not believe that the saints in heaven are concerned about our welfare and suffer and rejoice with us, what does one believe about the 'one body'?
Seems to me there are only two conclusions. First, there is not one body, but two -- one for those living on earth and one for those living in heaven. Two completely separate bodies, which is completely contradictory to scripture -- there is only one body.
The second conclusion would be that we are separated from this one body at death. Again, completely contradictory to scripture.
If one believes there is one body, and that we are not separated from this body at death (as Catholics do) then scripture is clear that members within the body care for each other and rejoice and suffer together. In fact, Paul says that "The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!"
However, this is exactly what people do when they tell those in heaven -- "we don't need you". We have Jesus, and that's all we need.
So the question is -- do you believe there is one body, and that death does not separate us from it? If so, then scripture says the saints in heaven indeed care for us. If not, please provide the scripture that supports your view that there are two bodies, or that we are no longer members of the one body at death.
If you believe they are still the body of Christ, then you should be able to provide scripture that supports your belief that they are limbs that are asleep and useless to the body. I find no such description in scripture -- Paul says that all the parts are needed by each other.No that was not my conclusion but your assumption that was what I was saying.
Regarding the red, you need to answer the simple question -- do you think we cease being a member of the body of Christ once we're in heaven?I regret that you have provided a theological reasoning to my question. Your assertion was that the Bible fully supported your assertion that Mary suffers and feels for each individual in the church,. I requested Biblical citations supporting your assertions and, at best, you have given references which, taken in the theological context which you have constructed around them, have been used to support your assertion. The bottom line seems to be that you have no Biblical references to support your assertions and that one is left to conclude that you are in error in believing that the Bible fully supports your ideas.
What is commonly believed concerning the heavenly status of the BVM is that she possesses virtual, if not complete, omniscience so that she is able and willing to intercede for innumerable individuals simultaneously. Unfortunately, only God possesses omniscience and to elevate Mary to that level goes widely beyond anything revealed in the Bible, either about members of "the body" or of the BVM individually.
1Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me.If you believe they are still the body of Christ, then you should be able to provide scripture that supports your belief that they are limbs that are asleep and useless to the body. I find no such description in scripture -- Paul says that all the parts are needed by each other.
They have indeed finished the race -- their personal race. But the role of the different parts of the body is to assist others in their race as well. Just because they've finished the personal race, where does it say they no longer fulfill this role of assistance in the body of Christ?
Couldn't this likely mean the body and not the spirit though?Notice how Paul show us the have fallen asleep.. Now do sleeping people work? No they sleep.
Well if one does not have ears how can they hear the prayers. If they do not have a mouth how can they speak..Regarding the 'omniscience' argument -- that is a straw man. Once in heaven -- a saint no longer has ears or a mouth -- so do you conclude that they can no longer communicate?
My understanding of this scripture is that they are at rest. At home with Jesus.. Not that they are not still part of the body of Christ but that they are now asleep as in rest. Not running the race but at the finish line.. Waiting for all of us to get to the finish line. Waiting for their bodies to be ressurected to the glorious body. Right now they are clothed with thier heavenly home and not thier bodies..Couldn't this likely mean the body and not the spirit though?
So basically you believe they cannot communicate with each other either since they do not have physical attributes that allow them to do so?Well if one does not have ears how can they hear the prayers. If they do not have a mouth how can they speak..
So you believe the body of Christ is half asleep?My understanding of this scripture is that they are at rest. At home with Jesus.. Not that they are not still part of the body of Christ but that they are now asleep as in rest. Not running the race but at the finish line.. Waiting for all of us to get to the finish line. Waiting for their bodies to be ressurected to the glorious body. Right now they are clothed with thier heavenly home and not thier bodies..What do ya think?
Again, the omniscient line of thinking is a strawman argument. You're assuming they must either have an earthly physical limitation even though they no longer are constrained by earthly physical bodies, or they must be "all" knowing. Can't quite see how one can conclude that it has to be one of those two things.I'm not sure where I stand on soul sleep, regardless asleep in His presence or awake and worshipping Him neither indicates an ability to be omniscient.
well Jesus was more than just a human. He is God, Mary on the other hand is was totally human. Big difference than Jesus.So you believe the body of Christ is half asleep?
I think they are fully alive in Christ, fully alive in His Spirit, and fully functioning as members of the body of Christ as defined in scripture. I see no evidence to indicate otherwise.
Jesus told us that those who were burdened could come to him and find rest. I do not think that means 'sleep' or unconsciousness. I think it means a peace beyond all understanding, and this is the 'rest' they have achieved in its totality.
Not yet we are still waiting on that answerDid anyone answer the alter question? What exactly does that mean? Where is Mary's alter? What does this represent?
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