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Discussion and Debate
Discussion and Debate
Ethics & Morality
Where is the Objective Morality?
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<blockquote data-quote="stevevw" data-source="post: 76476466" data-attributes="member: 342064"><p>So lets say morality is a different sort of fact or truth than the physical ones that science deals with. Its like an abstract fact like Math or the colour red or love. We have no physical objective to refer to.</p><p></p><p>So first to think in terms of methodlogical naturalism is not going to work here and just because people cannot find that physical evidence doesn't mean there are no moral truths/laws. JUst like it doesn't negate our claim that our partner truely loves us or the existence of the colour Red has no physical evidence yet we make it real and fact.</p><p></p><p>Second just like we treat or make other abstracts like love, the colour red or Math real and factual we treat moral truths like "murder and rape is wrong" factual or truth regardless of subjective thinking. So according to subjective we can either in error or deluded. But either of these doesn't prove there is no objective reality.</p><p></p><p>In fact it treats our experience of morality as some defeative state which many say is not the case as we actually live that reality out. That would be to say that we are living in delusions but I think we are smarter than that and morality is more real than that. So it can be the case that we are actually acknowledging and living out moral truths that we all know of and respect.</p><p></p><p>Its like when we declare rationally that the act of rape is wrong no matter what people subjectively think. That makes it a fact outside what people subjectively think. But your saying thats an error or delusion. But everything about is speaks fact. Its like saying we cannot say the clour red is fact or that our partner truely loves us is fact and we are just deluded because we cannot prove this physically.</p><p></p><p>To say its not a fact and that somehow we delude ourselves into think it is is silly as we contradict this everyday by the way we treat it as a fact. So if its not a fact that rape is wrong then its not wrong period and thats silly as well because we contradict that everyday. Its either real or its not and the only way we can know its real is how we make it real like love and the colour red. .</p><p></p><p> OK so an example again "rape is wrong". Can anyone claim rape is ok to do in any rational way. I think the answer is they can't and we all know that. Anyone who disagree is just mistaken. So here is a moral fact that we all know.</p><p></p><p>We know its wrong by the fact that we have to violate another person. If it was OK to do then people would happily submit to rape. But the fact that our inner being resists this shows we know its something that is not right to do. The idea that this doesn't prove moral facts is silly as it has all the hallmarks of a fact so we must be deluded.</p><p></p><p>But the alternative is silly as well that its not a fact and we should allow rape. To say that we don't rape because threatens our survival is appealing to an objective outside ourselves. We cannot justify rape being wrong without some objective basis outside ourselves.</p><p></p><p>So we do make rape wrong by law, by social convention, in our daily lives we live that truth. But wait its all a delusion of some sort there is no fact and therefore we have to say we do not know how we should act on this matter.</p><p></p><p> For morality this is the only way we can prove moral truths by how we make them reality. Its like Math, we made the system to describe some facts about reality but it cannot be verified apart from how we make it fact. The same with the colour red or love. We cannot prove these apart from our experience of them and how we make them fact in our lives. Live it long enough and it becomes our reality. Your thinking in materialistic terms so the only objectives we can know are physical ones. Therefore even iof there are abstract truths it doesn't matter they are discounted before we even start. But as I said we make many abstract things facts and truths and we are quite happy to accept them and live by them as fact.</p><p></p><p>Yes we live by the facts of how Democracy, capitalism, Marxism, socialism work. They are different by fact and we can live those facts in our lives. Someone can come and say what you claim to be capitalism is actually acting like a Marxist by fact and they are wrong in that claim by showing their contradictory behaviour. The same with morality. If we are happy to do that with other abstracts why not morality.</p><p></p><p>But values like equality and justice they are also lived as facts as we demonstrate in our lives with human rights and laws. We make them fact in the world. They can be reasoned as facts just like Marxism. Just like someone acts angry which is also an abstract idea we say there is such a thing as "anger" which is real in the world and yet there is no such physical object that is "anger".</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="stevevw, post: 76476466, member: 342064"] So lets say morality is a different sort of fact or truth than the physical ones that science deals with. Its like an abstract fact like Math or the colour red or love. We have no physical objective to refer to. So first to think in terms of methodlogical naturalism is not going to work here and just because people cannot find that physical evidence doesn't mean there are no moral truths/laws. JUst like it doesn't negate our claim that our partner truely loves us or the existence of the colour Red has no physical evidence yet we make it real and fact. Second just like we treat or make other abstracts like love, the colour red or Math real and factual we treat moral truths like "murder and rape is wrong" factual or truth regardless of subjective thinking. So according to subjective we can either in error or deluded. But either of these doesn't prove there is no objective reality. In fact it treats our experience of morality as some defeative state which many say is not the case as we actually live that reality out. That would be to say that we are living in delusions but I think we are smarter than that and morality is more real than that. So it can be the case that we are actually acknowledging and living out moral truths that we all know of and respect. Its like when we declare rationally that the act of rape is wrong no matter what people subjectively think. That makes it a fact outside what people subjectively think. But your saying thats an error or delusion. But everything about is speaks fact. Its like saying we cannot say the clour red is fact or that our partner truely loves us is fact and we are just deluded because we cannot prove this physically. To say its not a fact and that somehow we delude ourselves into think it is is silly as we contradict this everyday by the way we treat it as a fact. So if its not a fact that rape is wrong then its not wrong period and thats silly as well because we contradict that everyday. Its either real or its not and the only way we can know its real is how we make it real like love and the colour red. . OK so an example again "rape is wrong". Can anyone claim rape is ok to do in any rational way. I think the answer is they can't and we all know that. Anyone who disagree is just mistaken. So here is a moral fact that we all know. We know its wrong by the fact that we have to violate another person. If it was OK to do then people would happily submit to rape. But the fact that our inner being resists this shows we know its something that is not right to do. The idea that this doesn't prove moral facts is silly as it has all the hallmarks of a fact so we must be deluded. But the alternative is silly as well that its not a fact and we should allow rape. To say that we don't rape because threatens our survival is appealing to an objective outside ourselves. We cannot justify rape being wrong without some objective basis outside ourselves. So we do make rape wrong by law, by social convention, in our daily lives we live that truth. But wait its all a delusion of some sort there is no fact and therefore we have to say we do not know how we should act on this matter. For morality this is the only way we can prove moral truths by how we make them reality. Its like Math, we made the system to describe some facts about reality but it cannot be verified apart from how we make it fact. The same with the colour red or love. We cannot prove these apart from our experience of them and how we make them fact in our lives. Live it long enough and it becomes our reality. Your thinking in materialistic terms so the only objectives we can know are physical ones. Therefore even iof there are abstract truths it doesn't matter they are discounted before we even start. But as I said we make many abstract things facts and truths and we are quite happy to accept them and live by them as fact. Yes we live by the facts of how Democracy, capitalism, Marxism, socialism work. They are different by fact and we can live those facts in our lives. Someone can come and say what you claim to be capitalism is actually acting like a Marxist by fact and they are wrong in that claim by showing their contradictory behaviour. The same with morality. If we are happy to do that with other abstracts why not morality. But values like equality and justice they are also lived as facts as we demonstrate in our lives with human rights and laws. We make them fact in the world. They can be reasoned as facts just like Marxism. Just like someone acts angry which is also an abstract idea we say there is such a thing as "anger" which is real in the world and yet there is no such physical object that is "anger". [/QUOTE]
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